Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 1 minute ago, merjet said: Marketing may be done with different degrees of honesty. btw - Anything may be done with different degrees of honest. Anything at all. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 I don't support Hillary, although I would favor her over BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Merlin, So when you criticize Trump's business principles and cast a dire insinuation over the future under his leadership, why do you only mention his few failures and not his gazillions of successes? Do they not count in your view? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Please tell me about his gazillions of successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, merjet said: Please tell me about his gazillions of successes. Oh, please... I thought you were making a serious criticism of Trump instead of propaganda. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Could both of you folks explain to me what we are arguing about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Just now, Selene said: Could both of you folks explain to me what we are arguing about here? Adam, He doesn't like Trump. I do. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 15 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Oh, please... I thought you were making a serious criticism of Trump instead of propaganda. My mistake. I thought you were propagandizing and pooh-poohing any serious criticism. Maybe my mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 10 minutes ago, merjet said: I thought you were propagandizing and pooh-poohing any serious criticism. My mistake. Merlin, It is a mistake. I was actually looking at the problem, not pooh-poohing. I see this all the time and it makes me curious why the blank-out on Trump's achievements. I, for example, talk about Trump's shortcomings at times. Trump critics hardly ever to talk about his achievements unless it is to deny them. But asking someone in his face why he blanks-out a whole set of facts all the time--facts that are readily available with a simple Google search--is pretty rude. I didn't think about it when I asked it. I was deep into looking at a problem I find interesting (how core story does this to people), not the person I was talking to. And that is a mistake. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 OK - can we agree that he has some successes because we sure know about his "mistakes.? Do his successes exceed his mistakes? A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Just now, Selene said: Do his successes exceed his mistakes? Adam, By gazillions. Trump critics blank them out, but they exist. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Just now, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Adam, By gazillions. Trump critics blank them out, but they exist. Michael One answer... what say thee Merlin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Here--this is for the reader. You don't need to go far to look at a string of Trump's achievements. Wikipedia is a good start (and it's just a start). Check this out: The Trump Organization Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 http://www.moneytalksnews.com/why-youre-probably-better-investing-than-donald-trump/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mikee said: http://www.moneytalksnews.com/why-youre-probably-better-investing-than-donald-trump/ If I was advising my grandparents in 1928 from 1958, I would have told them that they would have been smarter to buy stock in GM after the crash rather than purchase half of a brownstone off 2nd Avenue near where the Triborough Bridge would be developed nine months before the crash. They still did well and it was their home also. This was a very successful step for two individuals who arrived at Ellis Island from Northern Italy in 1905 unmarried in a brave new world. I have never understood the probative value of Monday morning quarterbacking statements. A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 43 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Merlin, So when you criticize Trump's business principles and cast a dire insinuation over the future under his leadership, why do you only mention his few failures and not his gazillions of successes? Do they not count in your view? Michael Michael, How might I put this so you can entertain it? His successes are in the business world not in the political realm. In other words I recognize there are qualities in both worlds that cross over, leadership, negotiation etc. He has those in abundant supply. Its difficult to argue from that standpoint. Mostly because we all understand the qualities that lead to success. The problem is can he make a coherent argument without the simplicity he prefers? He talks like a mush mouth as a candidate. Youve heard him. That you believe him is fine, you find adequate answers on your side. But what about his ability to reinforce and convey ideas and connect them to politics? I think the concern is universal for those who view him as second rate in the political realm. The person wanted and needed is someone who can both refute the politics of socialism and explain the benefits of Capitalism. I havent seen him do that. Do you see what Im saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 41 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Trump critics hardly ever to talk about his achievements unless it is to deny them. I haven't denied any of his achievements. Nor have I paid much attention to them. The Trump Organization is privately held. It's not a public company I can invest in or look at its track record or financial statements. The only public company he ever started was a disaster. More relevant than any of it now is his political speech, which I don't find appealing. " I think the concern is universal for those who view him as second rate in the political realm. The person wanted and needed is someone who can both refute the politics of socialism and explain the benefits of Capitalism. I havent seen him do that." I can agree with that. Does he ever talk about individual rights and liberty? I haven't heard it. Try this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 16 minutes ago, merjet said: Does he ever talk about individual rights and liberty? Like the Second Amendment? Like right to life, especially in reference to those who chop off heads in public? Just about in every speech. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 1 hour ago, turkeyfoot said: His successes are in the business world not in the political realm. Geoff, Well look around you. Are you content with what the expert and successful genius politicians have done? I'm not. It's a holy mess. Look at what people who are voting for Trump think about it. They don't seem too pleased, either. So what is the alternative? 1. More politicians, or 2. Someone who makes a habit of success--success you can see--in many different fields. You can choose more politicians if you like. I'm fed up with them and so are millions of others. The red pill is more politicians. The blue pill is a wildly successful businessman. They are choosing the blue pill. Note, this is not anger and resentment like the people inside the establishment bubble keep saying. This is distrust. Massive distrust. You don't have to be angry with someone to distrust them. You will seek distance from them in all due serenity... If you want to speak to a Trump supporter and ignore that distrust and ignore Trump's achievements (or "don't pay much attention to it" like Merlin said about Trump's achievements), your message will not be heard. Not because you are a disagreeable person (quite the contrary ). It will be because distrust of politicians and admiration for Trump's achievements are exactly what voters are now paying attention to. The politicians have totally lost their credibility. How? Massive failures, one right after another, or half-assed achievements at best. And note, this term "lost credibility" has been said so often, it has lost connection with reality. Pundits tend to say it, think they have covered that base, then talk credibly about someone who has lost all credibility to the voters. What's happening now is that the concept and reality are being reconnected--not by the pundits or establishment folks. But by voters. Lack of credibility means distrust by voters. And distrust means ewwwww. When there is a viable alternative offered in place of discredited morons, people are taking it. Is it a gamble? A bit. But it sure beats the hell out of losing on purpose. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Let me add to that last thought. There is a slew of people out there who can talk a great game about capitalism, individual rights, the morality behind government and anything theoretical you may want to hear. Some have memorized the constitution. But when you look at their achievements, nothing's there. And when they get into politics, they generally sell out. So how is talking learned about theory of any real value when a person wants to choose a candidate to fix the mess all around us? If he's on the inside of the establishment, it's very important. If he's on the outside and has been burned by the insiders, it means nothing. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 On March 4, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Ellen Stuttle said: 38 minutes ago, turkeyfoot said: Michael, How might I put this so you can entertain it? His successes are in the business world not in the political realm. In other words I recognize there are qualities in both worlds that cross over, leadership, negotiation etc. He has those in abundant supply. Its difficult to argue from that standpoint. Mostly because we all understand the qualities that lead to success. The problem is can he make a coherent argument without the simplicity he prefers? He talks like a mush mouth as a candidate. Youve heard him. That you believe him is fine, you find adequate answers on your side. But what about his ability to reinforce and convey ideas and connect them to politics? I think the concern is universal for those who view him as second rate in the political realm. The person wanted and needed is someone who can both refute the politics of socialism and explain the benefits of Capitalism. I havent seen him do that. Do you see what Im saying? 38 minutes ago, turkeyfoot said: Michael, How might I put this so you can entertain it? His successes are in the business world not in the political realm. In other words I recognize there are qualities in both worlds that cross over, leadership, negotiation etc. He has those in abundant supply. Its difficult to argue from that standpoint. Mostly because we all understand the qualities that lead to success. The problem is can he make a coherent argument without the simplicity he prefers? He talks like a mush mouth as a candidate. Youve heard him. That you believe him is fine, you find adequate answers on your side. But what about his ability to reinforce and convey ideas and connect them to politics? I think the concern is universal for those who view him as second rate in the political realm. The person wanted and needed is someone who can both refute the politics of socialism and explain the benefits of Capitalism. I havent seen him do that. Do you see what Im saying? The benefits have been explained over and over, for generations. Clearly, 'splainin' it well hasn't cut it. Trump doesn't just explain, he shows, with a lifetime of self-initiated action, personal dynamism and vast success. Almost as good as the greatest corporate titans of America, the Fortune 500, as you have so helpfully pointed out. Second rate in the political realm, right. That's what I see in the results, too. As does Jeb, Ben, Little Marco... Quote Quote Michael, How might I put this so you can entertain it? His successes are in the business world not in the political realm. In other words I recognize there are qualities in both worlds that cross over, leadership, negotiation etc. He has those in abundant supply. Its difficult to argue from that standpoint. Mostly because we all understand the qualities that lead to success. The problem is can he make a coherent argument without the simplicity he prefers? He talks like a mush mouth as a candidate. Youve heard him. That you believe him is fine, you find adequate answers on your side. But what about his ability to reinforce and convey ideas and connect them to politics? I think the concern is universal for those who view him as second rate in the political realm. The person wanted and needed is someone who can both refute the politics of socialism and explain the benefits of Capitalism. I havent seen him do that. Do you see what Im saying? Explaining the benefits of capitalism is for later, after Trump has thoroughly humiliated the remainder of the little knats still buzzing around him, later when it is him versus Bernie or Hillary. Examine again the Wiki Michael shared above on the Trump organization. And it won't be so much explaining as showing his lifetime of ambitious, dynamic, self-initiated action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Michael: I have to admit that I am still unable to explain why intelligent folks like Geoff argue that it is a "weakness" to not have "political" inside the system "experience.-" What you need when you are elected is a minimum of the first two of the following three elements for success. If you have all three, you radically can change the scope and path that we are going to take: 1) the will; 2) the power; and [this is the really dangerous catalyst] 3) a mandate. That change can be great/good, or, disastrous/evil. A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Got it. I know too, you favor Cruz if Trump doesnt get enough electoral support for the nomination. Hes got the deep well I favor as a nominee. I do agree that Trump by his mere presence in the race has dealt adequately with issues, not for me, but at least enough to stir up the base AND newcomers. I only disagree on one thing. That is his inarticulateness in framing the issues in a way that I can overcome my intense dislike for his attitude. In part it has paved the way. Ive already had my say in the matter since I live in Virginia. Beyond that its all hyperbole. One guys sense of a winner vs anothers. Good luck to your guy! So far so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Jon! You are magnificent! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, turkeyfoot said: That is his inarticulateness in framing the issues in a way that I can overcome my intense dislike for his attitude. Geoff, Here, let me help you some with that framing (all books by Donald Trump): Trump: The Art of the Deal Crippled America: How to Make America Great Again Time to Get Tough: Make America Great Again! Think Big: Make It Happen in Business and Life Trump Never Give Up: How I Turned My Biggest Challenges into Success Trump: The Art of the Comeback Midas Touch: Why Some Entrepreneurs Get Rich-And Why Most Don't Trump 101: The Way to Success The America We Deserve Think BIG and Kick Ass in Business and Life There are others, but that small list should keep you busy for a few nights if you decide to read them. Let's say this is one way to frame capitalism. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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