Satan sounds like the good guy.

[Nerian]

Has anyone else noticed how Satan comes off as the good guy when you look at it from our perspective?

Satan was actually originally an angel. He eventually wouldn't take orders from God. He stood independently against god's dictatorship and was cast out by god.

He wanted Adam and Eve to have knowledge rather than stay ignorant.

Christians are worshiping the wrong guy! haha.

LaVey Satanism was apparently partly inspired by Objectivism. Makes sense.

Yes... I'm watching ancient aliens S6E5 ... lol.

[Derek McGowan]

That's interesting

[Selene]

Has anyone else noticed how Satan comes off as the good guy when you look at it from our perspective?

Satan was actually originally an angel. He eventually wouldn't take orders from God. He stood independently against god's dictatorship and was cast out by god.

He wanted Adam and Eve to have knowledge rather than stay ignorant.

Don't believe that last statement is an accurate interpretation of the Adam and Eve parable/story.

A...

[Reidy]

This, they say, is the point of Milton's Paradise Lost. I'm not qualified to judge.

[moralist]

Peter writes:

Has anyone else noticed how Satan comes off as the good guy when you look at it from our perspective?

Yes he does appear that way...

Satan is the perfect evil adversary to good. A deceptively beautiful angel of light... Lucifer. Who had free choice just as we do. He freely chose to rebel and to wage war against God, and so was cast down here on earth to prey on the suckers who are stupid enough to fall for his lies...

"Be well balanced, temperate, sober of mind, be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring in fierce hunger, seeking someone to seize upon and devour."

He wanted Adam and Eve to have knowledge rather than stay ignorant.

Adam and Eve were not good...

They were only innocent because they did not know good and evil by their own direct personal experience. They did not know good as good because up to the time the snake deceived Eve and Eve in turn deceived Adam, neither knew of a contrast to good.

Christians are worshiping the wrong guy! haha.

Paul said:

"But what I do, I will continue to do, for I am determined to maintain this independence in order to cut off the claim of those who would like to find an occasion and incentive to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms that we do. For such men are false apostles, spurious, counterfeits, deceitful workmen, masquerading as special messengers of Christ the Messiah.

And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. But their end will correspond with their deeds."

Dead giveaway.

Just like trees, that's how you can tell which is which ... "by their fruits shall you know them."

Greg

[tmj]

Peter writes:

Has anyone else noticed how Satan comes off as the good guy when you look at it from our perspective?

Yes he does appear that way...

Satan is the perfect evil adversary to good. A deceptively beautiful angel of light... Lucifer. Who had free choice just as we do. He freely chose to rebel and to wage war against God, and so was cast down here on earth to prey on the suckers who are stupid enough to fall for his lies..."Be well balanced, temperate, sober of mind, be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring in fierce hunger, seeking someone to seize upon and devour."

He wanted Adam and Eve to have knowledge rather than stay ignorant.

Adam and Eve were not good...

They were only innocent because they did not know good and evil by their own direct personal experience. They did not know good as good because up to the time the snake deceived Eve and Eve in turn deceived Adam, neither knew of a contrast to good.

Christians are worshiping the wrong guy! haha.

Paul said:

"But what I do, I will continue to do, for I am determined to maintain this independence in order to cut off the claim of those who would like to find an occasion and incentive to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms that we do. For such men are false apostles, spurious, counterfeits, deceitful workmen, masquerading as special messengers of Christ the Messiah.

And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. But their end will correspond with their deeds."

Dead giveaway.

Just like trees, that's how you can tell which is which ... "by their fruits shall you know them."

Greg

If innocent , why were they punished? Is the interpretation to be that they failed when tempted ? Without prior knowledge , how could it be understood that they(we) transgressed and deserved to be fated to toil in soil , and pain in child birth?

[Selene]

If innocent , why were they punished? Is the interpretation to be that they failed when tempted ? Without prior knowledge , how could it be understood that they(we) transgressed and deserved to be fated to toil in soil , and pain in child birth?

Um becuse they lost it to a beguiling lying snake, kinda like the last two (2) presidential elections, except the electorate was not innocent.

You do know the biblical meaning of innocence.

A...

[moralist]

Tad writes:

If innocent , why were they punished?

Because the instant they chose to believe the lies of the snake, they were no longer innocent.

Is the interpretation to be that they failed when tempted ? Without prior knowledge , how could it be understood that they(we) transgressed and deserved to be fated to toil in soil , and pain in child birth?

I enjoy my fate of toiling in soil. And since I never knew the Garden of Eden it's Heaven to me, because I'm happy doing it.

In fact we've planted our own version of the Garden of Eden model. It's an orchard with a wide variety of trees which yield food at various times during the year: Pomegranate, Kumquat, Tangerine, Orange, Lemon, Olive, Almond, Peach, Cherry, Fig, Apple, Avocado, Persimmon, Apricot... and Grape vines.

It is not a matter of knowledge, but the free choice of what to believe is true. In the story of Adam and Eve, they freely chose to believe that the lying snake was telling them the truth, and that truthful God was lying to them.

It's the oldest lie in the world... it's the lie that good is evil and evil is good.

And to this day, suckers still fall for it.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

In the movie -The Devil's Advocate- Satan is played by Al Pacino. One of his best lines in the movie:

"I'm a fan of man!!!"

Puhleeze see this:

If you prefer text: http://poetry.rapgenius.com/Al-pacino-devils-advocate-annotated#note-2132681

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

If innocent , why were they punished? Is the interpretation to be that they failed when tempted ? Without prior knowledge , how could it be understood that they(we) transgressed and deserved to be fated to toil in soil , and pain in child birth?

Um becuse they lost it to a beguiling lying snake, kinda like the last two (2) presidential elections, except the electorate was not innocent.

You do know the biblical meaning of innocence.

A...

Satan did not become a serpent until after he corrupted Adam and Eve.

Genesis says of Satan that he was more subtle than all the other living things in Eden.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Bob writes:

Satan did not become a serpent until after he corrupted Adam and Eve.

Actually he was a serpent, but didn't crawl on the ground.

And the Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all domestic animals and above every wild living thing of the field; upon your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust and what it contains all the days of your life."

Genesis says of Satan that he was more subtle than all the other living things in Eden.

Yes.

"Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God had made."

God told Adam and Eve the truth. He said not to eat the fruit of just one particular tree, and if they did, they would die.

Satan told Adam and Eve a lie. He said that if they ate the fruit of that one particular tree they would not die.

So Adam and Eve believed a liar... and today that same liar still opportunistically feeds upon anyone stupid enough to believe his lies.

Greg

[moralist]

Bob writes:

In the movie -The Devil's Advocate- Satan is played by Al Pacino. One of his best lines in the movie:

"I'm a fan of man!!!"

Pachino is an awesome actor... and that's one of his most convincing roles.

Greg

[zantonavitch]

In the movie -The Devil's Advocate- Satan is played by Al Pacino. One of his best lines in the movie:

"I'm a fan of man!!!"

Puhleeze see this:

If you prefer text: http://poetry.rapgenius.com/Al-pacino-devils-advocate-annotated#note-2132681

Ba'al Chatzaf

Hard to argue with any of Satan's/Pacino's speech here. God as a concept and ideal seems to be profoundly opposed to man and life and individual happiness. A life spent obeying and serving "god" seems devoid of meaning and purpose. It seems like treason and sacrilege against the real world and your human nature -- both of which are holy. Basically by "believing," or pretending to, you just resign yourself to nothingness, as you throw away your mind, and toss your sacred soul into the dirt.

[moralist]

Kyrel writes:

Hard to argue with any of Satan's/Pacino's speech here.

I agree... there's no need to argue with someone who is wrong.

God as a concept and ideal seems to be profoundly opposed to man and life and individual happiness. A life spent obeying and serving "god" seems devoid of meaning and purpose.

It's perfectly logical that the goodness of doing what's right would seem devoid of meaning and purpose for those who have no moral values to live by.

It seems like treason and sacrilege against the real world and your human nature -- both of which are holy.

It's actually holy to act contrary to your human nature which is wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. When indiscriminately acting on every human thought and every human emotion will only get you in prison or dead.

Basically by "believing," or pretending to,

Now that's the heart of the matter...

Pretending to believe is lying to yourself and others. An honest flawed man is far more moral than a phony "good" one, because at least he is not trying to deceive others. Phony "good" people only tempt others to hate God... when neither of them knows God.

you just resign yourself to nothingness, as you throw away your mind, and toss your sacred soul into the dirt.

That's true... because without a moral code to live by, you've not only failed to become a man, you're just killing time before you turn back into dirt.

Greg

[Nerian]

In the movie -The Devil's Advocate- Satan is played by Al Pacino. One of his best lines in the movie:

"I'm a fan of man!!!"

Ba'al Chatzaf

I absolutely love it! I'll have to see this movie now!

Satan +1000 points!

[DallasCowboys]

Ok I am gonna try and answer the original question. First of all I am just curious whether or not we are talking about the Christian version of Adam and Eve or the Islamic version? Second of all I think you misunderstood the story bit. The Devil doesn't like Adam he thinks they Adam is below him, that is why he doesn't bow down to him when God Commands. God gave Adam free will and let him live in Paradise. The Devil thinks Adam is below him because he was made from fire and Adam only clay. He then makes the deal with God that he can corrupt Adam “Verily I will mislead them and surely I will arouse in them vain desires.”. His goal isn't to give Adam knowledge, his goal is to deceive him, so I don't think the Devil is a good guy per say.

Thanks,

David C.

[anthony]

David, yes. You've led me to the consideration that (in O'ist terms): God was the Original (mystical) Intrinsicist - Satan, the Original Skeptic.

(Adam, now - heh, he was the first Objectivist...);)

[zantonavitch]

Moralist/Greg -- I'm curious: Philosophically do you consider yourself to be a Christian or Jew or some type of monotheist? Do you consider yourself to be a semi-Objectivist as well?

[BaalChatzaf]

David, yes. You've led me to the consideration that (in O'ist terms): God was the Original (mystical) Intrinsicist - Satan, the Original Skeptic.

(Adam, now - heh, he was the first Objectivist...);)

In the book of Job, Satan (which means adversary in Hebrew) was hired by God to find out just how good a fellow Job really was. So God used Satan's skepticism to probe matters and offer God information. (never mind that this contradict's God's omniscience).

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Kyrel writes:

Moralist/Greg -- I'm curious: Philosophically do you consider yourself to be a Christian or Jew or some type of monotheist?

Yes.

I'm a Christian... but I'm much more of a behaviorist than a dogmatist. It is our actions which make the world what it is and not our beliefs. So I don't care why someone does what's right, only that they do it. That's all that matters to me.

Do you consider yourself to be a semi-Objectivist as well?

No.

If you were to draw a circle around the moral values of Christianity and around the moral values of Objectivism, those two circles share the same overlapping area.

You can find me there.

Greg

[zantonavitch]

If you were to draw a circle around the moral values of Christianity and around the moral values of Objectivism, those two circles share the same overlapping area.

To state the obvious: the philosophies of Christianity and Objectivism are massively antithetical and constitute overwhelming enemies. Moreover, belief in "god" is 100% false and 100% evil -- and everybody knows it.

[moralist]

Kyrel writes:

To state the obvious: the philosophies of Christianity and Objectivism are massively antithetical and constitute overwhelming enemies.

While that certainly holds true for the dogmatists who are where the circles don't touch... but it does not hold true for the behaviorists who are within the shared borders of the two overlapping circles.

One defining quality of dogmatists is ideological purity. Their dogma is defined by who they condemn.

In contrast to black hooded dogmatists, both Christian and Objectivist behaviorists amicably agree on the value of the moral virtues held by decent people regardless of their ideologies. For they understand that it is peoples' actions which make the world what it is and not their beliefs.

Moreover, belief in "god" is 100% false and 100% evil -- and everybody knows it.

That's good... because I don't believe in a 100% false and 100% evil "god" either.

Greg

[Nerian]

For they understand that it is peoples' actions which make the world what it is

Objectivism does not judge morality on social concern. Its ethics is not a social utilitarian theory. I think that would be a pretty stark perversion of it.

It is our actions which make the world what it is and not our beliefs. So I don't care why someone does what's right, only that they do it. That's all that matters to me.

I must most vehemently disagree. Our actions stem from our beliefs. And one cannot consistently act virtuously, morally, without the right beliefs. Indeed, to act for bad reasons in the 'right way' would be immoral in itself. And that person would have no consistent way of knowing what is the 'right way' to act. Also, to judge morality based on actions and not on principles is to abdicate one's mind from making any judgement at all. In addition, Objectivist ethics is rational egoism. Being irrational will prevent one from ever achieving one's own happiness which is the very moral purpose of our lives according to Objectivism!

To believe in god is to engage in an act of faith. Faith is completely against the very root of Objectivism. You implicitly disprove the validity of faith in the very first axiom 'existence exists'. Being a Christian would require you to disagree with and be in direct conflict with Objectivist metaphysics, epistemology and ethics. It also seems your ethics is in contradiction with Objectivism, but you merely like some of its conclusions in so far as you consider them socially good. So if you disagree with Objectivist metaphysics, epistemology and ethics, how can you call yourself an Objectivist? That's basically the whole philosophy! I only have very minor issues with fringe details of Objectivism, and I still do not feel comfortable calling myself an Objectivist.

[Selene]

Moreover, belief in "god" is 100% false and 100% evil -- and everybody knows it.

Apparently, you think that you are God and you are omniscient.

The intellectual shallowness of your assertion that "...and everyone knows it.," is akin to the consensus stupidity on climate change.

So, modify your argument.

I do not know it...so therefore, your assertion is invalid.

A...

[Nerian]

I'm actually shocked there is anyone here who believes in god let alone considers his existence even remotely possible.

Interesting.