The Ukraine - This Ain't No Board Game Of RISK...!

[Selene]

I can respect Paul's solitary stance on this. I feel that making political capital out of this tragedy is distasteful and wrong. Who knows how far back one should go in finding fault and causation? Putin tried shifting blame himself, at first. One thing seems certain, whoever did it -and the Pro-Russian separatists are by far the most likely- nobody intended shooting down a civilian airliner. In that sense, it was an accident.

Good point Tony.

Assuming that it was accidental, and some of the "chatter" that was "intercepted" validates that the "actors" on the ground sounded surprised that it was a civilian air craft.

The questions that I have are:

1) who routed the plane over a war zone?

2) who are the "separatists?" and

3) what are they "separating" from? and

A...

[anthony]

Yes, Adam, that's a whole other can of worms. Not the aircraft's position at that second(I don't think); far as I know from early reports, it was re-routed north to avoid bad weather. I can't see anything nefarious there. No, the dirty tricks Putin has been up to in supporting a break-away bunch of Ukrainian-Russians who would force another annexation of a part of Ukraine--while pretending he has nothing to do with it. He could soon be doing some major backing down I predict, the only good thing to come out of this.

[Wolf DeVoon]

Evidence suggests no diversion for weather. A Ukrainian fighter jet was airborne 3km from MH-17 when it was shot down.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

[Selene]

Supposedly, Putin's most recent poll numbers stand at 83% approval. Now, where that number comes from, I have no clue. However, Russians are lovin them some Putin cause it is all about nationalism.

A...

[Backlighting]

deleted.

[Selene]

Hmmm...

KIEV, Ukraine — After days of obstruction, Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine permitted Dutch forensics experts on Monday to search the wreckage of the downed Malaysia Airlines jetliner destroyed by a surface-to-air missile, allowed bodies of the victims to be evacuated by train and agreed to give the plane’s flight recorder boxes to the Malaysia government.

The movements, four days after Malaysia Flight 17 exploded and crashed in an eastern Ukraine wheat field, came as President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia faced a growing international clamor to clear the way for a full and unimpeded investigation of the disaster.

This is not a back pedal in my opinion though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html?emc=edit_na_20140721&nlid=53564225&_r=0

[Backlighting]

Here's Ron Paul's take on the Ukraine situation:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ron-paul-defends-russia-malaysian-151731466.html

However, at the end of his column, Paul admitted he could be wrong about the whole matter.

"Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft," he wrote. "The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda."

Paul's son, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) is widely seen as a possible presidential candidate in 2016. Business Insider reached out to Paul's office to ask if he agreed with his father's take on the plane crash. As of this writing, we have not received a response.

He is on record for restructuring our military by bringing it back to the US proper. Therefore, this sounds like a "thinking out loud" column.

A...

I like much of who Ron Paul is.

[Selene]

I like much of who Ron Paul is.

Agreed. I believe we need to heed Patton's imprimatur that fixed fortifications are a monument to man's stupidity.

I would explore a different global defense paradigm that would still need quick and immediate power delivered to any area of the earth.

Control of space is critical as is the moon. Take the high ground has a new meaning in a long term global defense system.

Robots and drones do not get sick and do not get PTSD and when they lose limbs, we send them to the body shop, not a possible nightmare of VA Hospitals.

A...

[Selene]

Hmm...here we go...Denials from Putin's boys! I am shocked lol.

http://MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry on Monday challenged accusations pro-Russian rebels were to blame for shooting down a Malaysian airliner and asked the United States to produce satellite images to support its assertions.

[Backlighting]

I like much of who Ron Paul is.

Agreed. I believe we need to heed Patton's imprimatur that fixed fortifications are a monument to man's stupidity.

I would explore a different global defense paradigm that would still need quick and immediate power delivered to any area of the earth.

Control of space is critical as is the moon. Take the high ground has a new meaning in a long term global defense system.

Robots and drones do not get sick and do not get PTSD and when they lose limbs, we send them to the body shop, not a possible nightmare of VA Hospitals.

A...

Speaking of Patton, I like what he said (think I got the quote right) in reply to other Generals advising him to hold his position: (see the movie Patton)

"I don't hold anything...I'm always moving forward".

We do need to move forward and control space & the moon plus the advancement & size of our drone inventory is critical imo.

-Joe

P.S. I loved George C. Scott in that movie.

[Selene]

We do need to move forward and control space & the moon plus the advancement & size of our drone inventory is critical imo.

-Joe

"We will throw rocks man..."

sucks being at the bottom of that gravity well!

A...

[Wolf DeVoon]

Article and comment stream worth reading

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

Mike Shedlock has another piece of the puzzle

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/07/video-of-rebel-buk-launchers-headed.html

Pepe Escobar on Kiev's air traffic control tape

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html

[Selene]

Article and comment stream worth reading

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

He has an agenda, like most folks do, just want folks here to be aware.

As one of the reporters who helped expose the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press in the mid-1980s, I was distressed by the silliness and propaganda that had come to pervade American journalism. I feared, too, that the decline of the U.S. press corps foreshadowed disasters that would come when journalists failed to alert the public about impending dangers.

Also by 1995, documents were emerging that put the history of the 1980s in a new – and more troubling – light. Yet, there were fewer and fewer media outlets interested in that history.

The memories of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush were enveloped in warm-and-fuzzy myths that represented another kind of danger: false history that could lead to mistaken political judgments in the future.

Some of our early articles reexamined important chapters of the 1980s (such as the “October Surprise” controversy from Election 1980 and evidence of Nicaraguan contra-cocaine trafficking). Other stories explored more topical crises (such as NATO’s war over Kosovo and the impeachment assault on President Bill Clinton).

http://consortiumnews.com/about/

[Selene]

Well well - when the boy President sees this on TV he is going to be really mad!

Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine said on Friday it had destroyed part of a Russian military convoy that crossed onto its territory in an incursion that has sent cross-border tensions soaring.

NATO accused Russia of active involvement in the "destabilisation" of eastern Ukraine, where pro-Kremlin separatists have been fighting against Kiev for four months.

The two countries have also been wrangling for days over a Russian convoy that Moscow says is carrying aid for besieged rebel-held cities but which Kiev suspects could be a "Trojan horse" to provide military help to the insurgents

http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-border-officials-inspecting-russian-convoy-kiev-085145166.html

[BaalChatzaf]

We do need to move forward and control space & the moon plus the advancement & size of our drone inventory is critical imo.

-Joe

"We will throw rocks man..."

sucks being at the bottom of that gravity well!

A...

A military axiom: take and hold the High Ground.

[Brant Gaede]

Hamburger Hill?

Haha.

--Brant

I don't hold anything--I attack (Patton)

[Selene]

Hamburger Hill?

Haha.

--Brant

I don't hold anything--I attack (Patton)

Interesting that you mentioned Hamburger Hill and Patton...

I thought, not having been there that Hamvurger Hill was completely real and why one should not go into war, if you can avoid it, with ground troops.

Each trooper bleeds when hit, he has a dad and mom and brother and sister and his individual life is worth as much as, the scumbag in Washington who signed his commitment order...

yeah, not too happy with the reportage...

[Brant Gaede]

HH: attack up the hill to kill who was there, then leave.

Stupid body-count warfare.

I know someone who got a million dollar wound in that action.

--Brant

[Selene]

Is anyone in the media covering this?

The Russian move represents a significant escalation of the Kremlin’s involvement in the fighting there and comes as a convoy of Russian trucks with humanitarian provisions has crossed into Ukrainian territory without Kiev’s permission.

Ukraine Crisis in Maps

Fighting continued as a Russian humanitarian convoy advanced toward Ukraine, the latest update to the current visual survey of the continuing dispute, with maps and satellite imagery showing rebel and military movement.

It is amazing how predator nations behave when they sense weakness.

Looking more like that powerful Drury novel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russia-moves-artillery-units-into-ukraine-nato-says.html?emc=edit_na_20140822&nlid=53564225&_r=0

A...

[Selene]

Maybe our castrated President will draw a pink line on the Steppes of Russia the will scare away the Reds and Putin,,

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/world/europe/ukraine-conflict.html?_r=0

[Backlighting]

Maybe our castrated President will draw a pink line on the Steppes of Russia the will scare away the Reds and Putin,,

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/world/europe/ukraine-conflict.html?_r=0

Perhaps he'll be bowing too.

[Brant Gaede]

I wonder when they castrated him?

--Brant

after his voice changed, I'm sure

[Selene]

Brant:

There are lots of ways to castrate.

1) chemical;

2) physical; and

3) psychological, see cuckolded husband.

My bet is on Michelle...

A...

[BaalChatzaf]

Brant:

There are lots of ways to castrate.

1) chemical;

2) physical; and

3) psychological, see cuckolded husband.

My bet is on Michelle...

A...

See a movie along those lines: The Shrike with June Allison. And you thought June was all sweet and smiles, didn't you?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Peter]

Isnt it odd how differently peoples in various countries view the same events? Dynastic struggles like 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War. Hitler. Mao. Mussolini. Jihadists. The Crusades. Do wars, that are not civil wars, require an overriding ideology? Or, is their common thread sometimes Nationalism? If you ask a simple or complex question like that of a person in Germany their view would be different from that of a Brit. Humans can usually agree on scientific facts but we never agree on human activities.

Whos the villain? Yeltsin fought Chechnya in 1994 and there was a second (attempted breakaway) Chechen war in 1999, without any ideological reasons on Russias part. There have been insurgencies in the Russian sphere in Ingushetia, The North Caucasus, Ossetia, Abkhazia, Moldova, etc. Their war with Georgia was in 2008. China is expanding its influence as is radical Islam.

I went to some pro Russian sites and they see the world as dominated by US imperialism. While we might say NATO was expanded because people sought it out freely, to protect themselves from the worlds aggression, Russian disagrees. They also bring up the history of our fights in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now once again in the middle east. Russian propaganda paints a picture of American Imperialism. And oddly though it is not monolithic, so does the American Libertarian movement.

Does Putin require an ideology to start invasions of his neighbors risking WWIII? Does he care? There is a possibility of a very dangerous conflict in the Ukraine, although Putins prior incursions dont seem simultaneous, there are alarming parallels to the Nazis in 1939. Or so I say. And NATO. And a majority of every country bordering Russia. Sometimes, I think the world is mostly inhabited by people who think just like a cynical Henry Kissinger, and a select few just like Machiavelli.