The Ukraine - This Ain't No Board Game Of RISK...!

[Brant Gaede]

I guess it's American stupid-never-learn destiny to go abroad sans necessity and give her armed forces things to do.

--Brant

hello, all: Russia's got four things going: gas, oil, nukes and vodka; if left alone the last will take care of the rest

[anthony]

Here's what happens when you counter pragmatism with pragmatism. Allow it its way once and it is perceived as weakness by the a-principled. I had an idea the Crimea would be a dress rehearsal for East Ukraine.

I anticipate this anti-conceptual Attila, Putin, will back down, or be given a bloody nose by NATO.

[Brant Gaede]

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

--Brant

why is the United States still a member?

[Selene]

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

--Brant

why is the United States still a member?

Our post-WWII global defense concepts and Kennan's policy of containment...pretty much has us stuck in place structurally.

[Brant Gaede]

France wasn't stuck.

--Brant

[anthony]

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

--Brant

Nor was Libya. Ukraine and Georgia were advised they could join (circa 2009) which met angry resistance by Russia.

[Brant Gaede]

Libya if handled correctly by force was only done when Reagan sent F-111s on a one-time bombing mission sending an SOB a clear message which he got. Getting rid of the SOB only uncorked terrorism into Africa and more into the Middle East. The same for what the US did in Iraq. Afghanistan destabilized Pakistan into a near-failed state with nukes and soon for Afghanistan and the Taliban it will be like Americans were never there for any actual good done. And I've not even touched on the lost American treasure of men, time and money.

War is shit and the US has way too much taste for it. Always has.

--Brant

[Selene]

Would someone kindly tell the imbecile in the White House that:

(Photo: The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism)

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Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media.

Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.

Donetsk is the site of an "anti-terrorist" operation by the Ukraine government, which has moved military columns into the region to force out militants who are demanding a referendum be held on joining Russia. The news was carried first by the Ukraine's Donbass news agency.

The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the reports.

Pushilin acknowledged that flyers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk, but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/17/jews-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/

Whew, for one moment I had a delusion that history was repeating itself...wait, it is not a delusion!

A...

[Darrell Hougen]

Why am I not surprised to learn that the West and especially Germany have been training and rearming Russia?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+(The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles)



Darrell

[anthony]

They'll be sor-ry...

Russia looks to be reviewing its old 'empire' and recalling its 'glory days', again.

[Peter]

Tony wrote:

Russia looks to be reviewing its old 'empire' and recalling its 'glory days', again.

end quote

That is one reason I am OK with the United States heading NATO. However, all remedies other than the retaliatory use of force should be used before and IF Russia attacks Ukraine.

I read that we were sending small forces to our allies in that region. Poland was accepting 150 of our soldiers, which sounds like a very small number, but any US forces are a trip wire. Russia does not want to stumble over a NATO trip wire. That deterrent has kept totalitarian North Korea from invading free South Korea, though it might not work in this case.

Brrr. Putin may be less than sane, and Mutual Assured Destruction may not stop him from his ambitions, nor saber rattling. I am reminded of the novel, On The Beach. Remember the scene where US Navy personnel discover the source of the randomly seeming Morse code signal received in Australia is the wind moving some Venetian blinds that are touching a coke bottle that is next to a Morse code sending pad?

[Selene]

Peter₁ :

Great movie.

However, I think a better movie, that illustrates how dangerous this current stategic brush of an expanding Russia and a retreating United States is The Bedford Incident...with Richard Widmard and Sidney Potier, Martin Balsam and Wally Cox'

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058962/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

The Russians have:

1) pushed the air envelop on US ships in the Black Sea which is within their "defensive zone;"

2) pushed the Polish air defenses with bombers; and

3) pushed the Northern defense zones of Scotland with jet fighters.

This does not happen by accident.

The Bedford Incident is a 1965 Anglo-American Cold War film starring Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier, and co-produced by Richard Widmark. The cast also features Eric Portman, James MacArthur, Martin Balsam and Wally Cox, as well as early appearances by Donald Sutherland and Ed Bishop. The screenplay by James Poe is based on the 1963 book by Mark Rascovich. This in turn was patterned after Herman Melville's Moby-Dick; at one point in the film the captain is advised he is "no longer hunting whales."^{[1][2][3][4][5]}

The film was directed by James B. Harris, who up to that time was best known as Stanley Kubrick's producer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bedford_Incident <<<< Wiki site

When folks are highly stressed and facing possible destruction, the chances of an engagement by accident could trigger a limited nuclear field war.

A...

[Peter]

I vaguely remember The Bedford Incident, Adam. The title is very familiar but not the story line. On The Beach is quite memorable, perhaps because I read the book and then shortly thereafter saw the movie. I may check to see if The Bedford Incident, is on Netflix.

[Selene]

I vaguely remember The Bedford Incident, Adam. The title is very familiar but not the story line. On The Beach is quite memorable, perhaps because I read the book and then shortly thereafter saw the movie. I may check to see if The Bedford Incident, is on Netflix.

Excellent film. I am a fan of Wiidmark's work. He directed/co-directed the film.

Remember this scene from...Kiss of Death?

http://youtu.be/w8ybHBveQCk

[Jerry Biggers]

It's surprsing that "The Bedford Incident," (a U.S. Navy Destroyer and a Russian nuclear sub facing offf and ultimately destroying each other) has not already happened, particularly when the "Cold War" was at its height. Of course, it could still happen. The U.S. putting a destroyer or guided missile cruiser into the (almost landlocked) Black Sea, which Russia has traditionally viewed as a Russian lake, was both futile and stupid. (Strategically, it makes as much sense as Russia sending one of it warships into the Great Lakes) If any real hostilities break out with NATO countries, it will serve as nice "target practice."

Putin may be (o.k., is) a totalitarian imperialistic thug, but he is likely to win this dispute and absorb at least the eastern half into Russia.This conflict was lost by the West/NATO before it started. 1) Half of Ukraine is ethnic Russian and probably want to be part of Russia. 2) The other "Ukrainian" half has a poor history of suppressing other ethnic minorities within its territory.3) Russians view Ukrainian as merely a dialect of Russian. 4) Kiev is historically significant as the birthplace and first capitol of the Russian nation, 5) Ukraine has only existed as a sovereign nation for a very brief period after World War I and then again after the Soviet Union collapse in 1991. Prior to those periods, Ukraine was always part of other countries, such as Poland or Poland-Lithuania, with slivers of its territory in Austria-Hungary. The word "Ukraine," by the way, is usually translated to mean "borderland."

In other words, the territory now known as Ukraine has historically been part of Russia ever since the early Middle Ages. Although those who call themselves ethnic Ukrainians may protest and claim that they are an independent nation, history is not on their side.

Unfortunately, the Baltic states, are under threat because about half of their popoulations are ethnic Russians.

[Backlighting]

I vaguely remember The Bedford Incident, Adam. The title is very familiar but not the story line. On The Beach is quite memorable, perhaps because I read the book and then shortly thereafter saw the movie. I may check to see if The Bedford Incident, is on Netflix.

Excellent film. I am a fan of Wiidmark's work. He directed/co-directed the film.

Remember this scene from...Kiss of Death?

http://youtu.be/w8ybHBveQCk

I remember him in the Westerns, which I liked, when I was a kid.

[Selene]

Gary Cooper, Widmark and one of the four (4) most beautiful women in the world, Susan Heyward - in Garden of Evil.

Garden of Evil (1954) is a Western film about three somewhat disreputable 19th-century soldiers of fortune, played by Gary Cooper, Richard Widmark, and Cameron Mitchell, who are hired by a woman, portrayed by Susan Hayward, to rescue her husband. The movie was directed by Henry Hathaway.

[Backlighting]

I remember that one, Adam.

Yes, Susan was top-shelf.

-Joe

[Selene]

Nothing to see here, move along...

Odessa’s Jews are prepared to evacuate should the violence in the western Ukrainian city get significantly worse, several community leaders told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday.

Odessa’s Jewish community numbers some 30,000, down from nearly 40 percent of the city’s population before the Holocaust.

Running street battles between pro-Russian and nationalist forces claimed dozens of lives in the Black Sea port this weekend, culminating in the burning of dozens of pro-Russian protesters in the city’s trade union building on Friday evening.

ODESSA JEWS PREPARE FOR EMERGENCY EVACUATION...

Ukraine sends special forces as fighting intensifies...

[Peter]

The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst.

Harry Emerson Fosdick

I wont give away too many spoilers, since it seems a lot of the plot has already been discussed. The Bedford Incident with Richard Widmark, Sydney Poitier, Wally Cox, (and Donald Sutherland in a small part I did not know it was him until he spoke) was a riveting movie. I had a few gripes while watching it based on my Dad being in the Navy but overall, I thought it was an excellent thriller. I saw it on a Netflix disc.

[Selene]

The tragedy of war is that it uses man's best to do man's worst.

Harry Emerson Fosdick

I wont give away too many spoilers, since it seems a lot of the plot has already been discussed. The Bedford Incident with Richard Widmark, Sydney Poitier, Wally Cox, (and Donald Sutherland in a small part I did not know it was him until he spoke) was a riveting movie. I had a few gripes while watching it based on my Dad being in the Navy but overall, I thought it was an excellent thriller. I saw it on a Netflix disc.

Glad you liked it.

I thought it was a "unique" movie for it's time.

[Selene]

Did not want to start a new thread because in my mind these are all related by either, a conscious, or unconscious global gestalt that has been operating since January 20th, 2009.

Go to an interactive world map and start sticking activity pins in the different places we are retreating from.

TIKRIT Iraq (Reuters) - Sunni rebels from an al Qaeda splinter group overran the Iraqi city of Tikrit on Wednesday and closed in on the biggest oil refinery in the country, making further gains in their rapid military advance against the Shi'ite-led government in Baghdad.

The threat to the Baiji refinery comes after militants from the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) seized the northern city of Mosul, advancing their aim of creating a Sunni Caliphate straddling the border between Iraq and Syria.

The fall of Mosul, Iraq's second biggest city, is a blow to Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's attempts to defeat the militants, who have seized territory in Iraq over the past year following the withdrawal of U.S. forces.

About 500,000 Iraqis have fled Mosul, home to 2 million people, and the surrounding province, many seeking safety in the autonomous Kurdistan region.

Having also taken two small towns north of Baghdad, Dhiluiya and Yathrib, the insurgents are in control of between 10 and 15 pct of Iraqi territory, excluding Kurdistan, and have led many Iraqis to fear they have the capital, Baghdad, in their sights.

A disaster is upon us.

Coincidence, when traced back far enough becomes inevitable.

http://news.yahoo.com/sunni-insurgents-close-iraqs-biggest-oil-refinery-111013537.html;_ylt=AwrBEiHQoJhTXWcAFWHQtDMD

[Selene]

What did Patton say about paying for the same ground twice?

The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad is preparing contingency plans to evacuate its employees if necessary now that one of the deadliest Islamic militant groups in the region has taken control of large swaths of Iraq, a U.S. official told TheBlaze.

The State Department also warned U.S. citizens against traveling to Iraq, following several days of bloody clashes between insurgents with the Al Qaeda-inspired Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Iraqi military forces. ISIL has taken control of Mosul, Tikrit and Fallujah and aims to create an Islamic state across the Iraq-Syria border.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/11/u-s-embassy-prepares-for-possible-evacuation-as-militants-take-control-in-iraq/

This, hopefully, is not the multi hundreds of millions of dollars embassy that we were building.

A...

[Jules Troy]

I vote to pull completely out of the Middle East and just let them keep killing one another. America needs to become an economic powerhouse again. To do that it has to of course embrace capitalism again and stop trying to insert democracy into other countries. It is just a drain on the nation with little to no gain.

[Brant Gaede]

We always try to pull out when we aren't trying to win. The exception was Korea because we could cut the situation off at the 38th parallel. Push comes to push back and when push stops push back continues. That's Iraq and now/soon Afghanistan--the basic unlearned lesson of Vietnam. I saw the end of the Vietnam War in 1965 one month before they sent in the Marines in April, not for that reason but because you couldn't draw a line across a peninsula as in Korea and bring the conflict to a stop. Not with those borders. When Johnson threw in the towel in 1968 I knew the war was lost--that we were giving up.

--Brant

one thing to see the future, another to be able to do anything about it