Carlos Castaneda

[Brant Gaede]

Christianity 101: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." We can't even be good by our own efforts.Greg

So, in accordance with the moral law which you say your god decreed and which according to you applies to everyone, are you getting the "just and deserved consequences" of not being good?Ellen

Yes... in the sense that we have each inherited the moral (and physical) weaknesses of our parents, who inherited it from their parents, who inherited it from their parents... (on and on)So you can see that this is not a matter of assigning blame......but of understanding our challenge in life to overcome what was passed on to us, and to break the chain so that it ends with us and does not get passed on to others.Those "just and deserved consequences" are why everyone DIES.So the choice is totally up to you whether you go laughing and singing, or kicking and screaming. :wink:Greg

Do you make this up as you go along?

This is the debil made me do it but saved by God (and say g'd bye to your family and friends).

--Brant

drinkin' the drink (avoid high-fructose corn syrup)

[moralist]

Christianity 101: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." We can't even be good by our own efforts.Greg

So, in accordance with the moral law which you say your god decreed and which according to you applies to everyone, are you getting the "just and deserved consequences" of not being good?Ellen

Yes... in the sense that we have each inherited the moral (and physical) weaknesses of our parents, who inherited it from their parents, who inherited it from their parents... (on and on)So you can see that this is not a matter of assigning blame......but of understanding our challenge in life to overcome what was passed on to us, and to break the chain so that it ends with us and does not get passed on to others.Those "just and deserved consequences" are why everyone DIES.So the choice is totally up to you whether you go laughing and singing, or kicking and screaming. :wink:Greg

Do you make this up as you go along?

Ok. You obviously disagree with this view that there is something within you that you need to overcome to be a better person.

Greg

[moralist]

Christianity 101: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." We can't even be good by our own efforts.Greg

So, in accordance with the moral law which you say your god decreed and which according to you applies to everyone, are you getting the "just and deserved consequences" of not being good?Ellen

Yes... in the sense that we have each inherited the moral (and physical) weaknesses of our parents, who inherited it from their parents, who inherited it from their parents... (on and on)So you can see that this is not a matter of assigning blame......but of understanding our challenge in life to overcome what was passed on to us, and to break the chain so that it ends with us and does not get passed on to others.Those "just and deserved consequences" are why everyone DIES.So the choice is totally up to you whether you go laughing and singing, or kicking and screaming. :wink:Greg

Do you make this up as you go along?

This is the debil made me do it...

That's the kind of blaming excuse immoral people use, except they also substitute: society, poverty, Jews, racism, sexism, homophobia, big corporations, and the international banking conspiracy. No one starts out doing what's morally right, but it can become an acquired taste over time. It all depends on your own free choice.

Greg

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Do you make this up as you go along?

David,

It's a common belief in many Christian denominations that there was no death in the Garden of Eden and that death started with the disobedience of Adam and Eve and their expulsion.

After a while, Christ took everyone's place--paid the price of the original sin (and all others people commit)--so humans will be able to live forever as in God's original plan, except they will live in Heaven. (Christ's sacrifice put an end to the need for animal sacrifices.) This is said to have been the supreme expression of God's love for mankind.

Many different Christians have told me this or some variation of it.

Michael

[Selene]

Do you make this up as you go along?

David,

It's a common belief in many Christian denominations that there was no death in the Garden of Eden and that death started with the disobedience of Adam and Eve and their expulsion.

After a while, Christ took everyone's place--paid the price of the original sin (and all others people commit)--so humans will be able to live forever as in God's original plan, except they will live in Heaven. (Christ's sacrifice put an end to the need for animal sacrifices.) This is said to have been the supreme expression of God's love for mankind.

Many different Christians have told me this or some variation of it.

Michael

Agreed. Additionally, there is a series of incorporations of the shedding of blood to "purify," "cleanse" etc.

Lamb's blood. Christ's blood.

In Catholicism the transubstantiation** of the red wine into the blood and the host into the flesh. It appears to exist in at least the 11th Century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

**

In Christian theology, transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is the doctrine that the substance of the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist is changed, not merely as by a sign or a figure, but also in reality,^[1][2] into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus,^[3] while all that is accessible to the senses (the outward appearances - species^[4][5][6] in Latin) remains unchanged.^[7][8] What remains unaltered is also referred to as the "accidents" of the bread and wine,^[9] but this term is not used in the official definition of the doctrine by the Council of Trent.^[10]

Additional differences:

“What is the difference between ‘transubstantiation’ and ‘consubstantiation’?”

The word “transubstantiation” derives from Latin — trans (across), and substantia (substance). The term is employed in Roman Catholic theology to denote the idea that during the ceremony of the “Mass,” the “bread and wine” are changed, in substance, into the flesh and blood of Christ, even though the elements appear to remain the same. This doctrine, has no basis in Scripture. There are traces of the dogma in some of the post-apostolic writings and the concept was vigorously defended in the early 9th century A.D. It was adopted by the 4th Lateran Council (A.D. 1215), formalized at the Council of Trent (A.D. 1545-63), and was reaffirmed at the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).

“Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

[PDS]

Do you make this up as you go along?

David,

It's a common belief in many Christian denominations that there was no death in the Garden of Eden and that death started with the disobedience of Adam and Eve and their expulsion.

After a while, Christ took everyone's place--paid the price of the original sin (and all others people commit)--so humans will be able to live forever as in God's original plan, except they will live in Heaven. (Christ's sacrifice put an end to the need for animal sacrifices.) This is said to have been the supreme expression of God's love for mankind.

Many different Christians have told me this or some variation of it.

Michael

Understood.

Actually, Augustine spearheaded the Original Sin doctrine, so to speak. The doctrine is at least implied in Paul's theology. This is largely what Greg seems to be saying, but that he jumps off the cliff with it.

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

[PDS]

Christianity 101: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." We can't even be good by our own efforts.Greg

So, in accordance with the moral law which you say your god decreed and which according to you applies to everyone, are you getting the "just and deserved consequences" of not being good?Ellen

Yes... in the sense that we have each inherited the moral (and physical) weaknesses of our parents, who inherited it from their parents, who inherited it from their parents... (on and on)So you can see that this is not a matter of assigning blame......but of understanding our challenge in life to overcome what was passed on to us, and to break the chain so that it ends with us and does not get passed on to others.Those "just and deserved consequences" are why everyone DIES.So the choice is totally up to you whether you go laughing and singing, or kicking and screaming. :wink:Greg

Do you make this up as you go along?

Ok. You obviously disagree with this view that there is something within you that you need to overcome to be a better person.Greg

I actually agree with your latest point. The hodge podge above it is what I disagree with.

Has it ever occurred to you that others on this forum are reasonably well read in theology, as well as philosophy? Your willingness to play fast and loose with serious topics implies that you have not considered this possibility.

[tmj]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

[Ellen Stuttle]

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

Greg's version is like a combination of the Christain belief with the Hindu and Buddhist belief in working out the wrongdoings of earlier lives through reincarnation until reaching the level at which one gets off the wheel of things. (Some, especially compassionate persons, having reached the state of freedom from the wheel, choose to come back to help others escape.)

Ellen

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

I doubt it re Glenn Beck.

I listen to him regularly and he never says anything even remotely similar.

Michael

[Serapis Bey]

Greg's version is like a combination of the Christain belief with the Hindu and Buddhist belief

I wonder how Greg's beliefs are not a Christianized version of The Secret, with Jeebus placed as a cherry on top?

More seriously, though:

in working out the wrongdoings of earlier lives through reincarnation until reaching the level at which one gets off the wheel of things.

In one sense he is right -- we are all victims of our upbringing, just as our parents were victims of theirs. As any social worker will tell you, ending the cycle of abuse in dysfunctional familes involves a lot of anguish and HARD WORK on the part of the family's latest iteration. Positing "free will" and "autonomy" in the manner of Objectivism usually just results in a change of verbalisms -- rearranging the furniture without changing the actual room, as Greg put it before.

"The nature of the beast is quite depressing. For example, the fact that early childhood training affects the organism to the degree it does argues for a very primitive species. Regardless of the cortical processes or "consciousness", early childhood trauma, modeling, beliefs and training stay with most people until they die. This argues for a tribal form of inteligence; early programming remains with the organism almost regardless of cortical feedback." -- Hyatt

"The sins of the father are heaped on the son by way of the mother." - Ibid

[Serapis Bey]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

I doubt it re Glenn Beck.

I listen to him regularly and he never says anything even remotely similar.

Michael

heh heh heh heh heh

[moralist]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

I doubt it re Glenn Beck.

I listen to him regularly and he never says anything even remotely similar.

Michael

I've never heard that from him either. And I'd never claim originality as I'm certain someone else has to have said that before I ever did. But I didn't get it from anyone else and like it because it rhymes.

Greg

[moralist]

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

Greg's version is like a combination of the Christain belief with the Hindu and Buddhist belief in working out the wrongdoings of earlier lives through reincarnation until reaching the level at which one gets off the wheel of things. (Some, especially compassionate persons, having reached the state of freedom from the wheel, choose to come back to help others escape.)

Ellen

Wow, Ellen... that's quite a long leap of faith. I've never explicitly mentioned reincarnation because I have no idea about it one way or the other. It's enough to do my best to get things right, here and now, and just let the chips fall where they may.

In my opinion, we are all conduits, and we each get to choose what passes through us.

I think of it like driving in traffic. If someone gets angry because someone else cut them off, and then they cut you off, and then you get angry and cut someone else off... well, you just became a conduit for that anger because you passed it on to someone else instead of letting it end with you.

And on the flip side... if you make a space in front of you and courteously wave someone else to move over, that act also gets passed on, and you are also a conduit... except you're a conduit for good.

Our whole life is just like that.

Greg

[moralist]

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

Oh, really?

Jesus Christ was the ultimate kickass sin chain breaker of all time. Through Him even the very first sin of Adam was atoned for.

Greg

[moralist]

Has it ever occurred to you that others on this forum are reasonably well read in theology, as well as philosophy? Your willingness to play fast and loose with serious topics implies that you have not considered this possibility.

My view is naturally different because for me this isn't a virtual intellectual study... but is rather the reality of a direct personal experience.

It's one thing to read about, to intellectually study, and to memorize facts about Hawaii...

...and yet it is something else entirely to actually be there.

Greg

[tmj]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

I doubt it re Glenn Beck.

I listen to him regularly and he never says anything even remotely similar.

Michael

I don't know how or if one can embed a podcast, and the auditory hallucinations stopped long ago, but if you listen to this weeks broadcasts you will hear it. Not sure which show as I was listening to a rebroadcast like a 'week in review' show on a local station.

I think it was in the show where he was discussing the concept of the "one". It's not terribly important, but I did hear, I listen to Glenn a fair amount myself.

[tmj]

Yet another example of fate,synchronicity ,weird "whether you go laughing and singing or kicking and screaming" is a phrase I've seen on this thread and in the rebroadcast of G Beck's radio show from this week.

I doubt it re Glenn Beck.

I listen to him regularly and he never says anything even remotely similar.

Michael

I've never heard that from him either. And I'd never claim originality as I'm certain someone else has to have said that before I ever did. But I didn't get it from anyone else and like it because it rhymes.

Greg

Greg

Well kinda rhymes, I didn't mean to imply anything about originality, actually I thought it was a christian meme or some such.

Perhaps Glenn is a fan of yours ?

[PDS]

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

Oh, really? :laugh:Jesus Christ was the ultimate kickass sin chain breaker of all time. Through Him even the very first sin of Adam was atoned for.Greg

You said above that the challenge was for each of us to "break the chain" and not pass it on to others.

That's why I accused you of making up things as you go along. I pointed out that there is no support for your view and now you bring up Christ, to imply that you were talking about him in the first place.

This is not a good faith discussion.

[PDS]

Has it ever occurred to you that others on this forum are reasonably well read in theology, as well as philosophy? Your willingness to play fast and loose with serious topics implies that you have not considered this possibility.

My view is naturally different because for me this isn't a virtual intellectual study... but is rather the reality of a direct personal experience.It's one thing to read about, to intellectually study, and to memorize facts about Hawaii......and yet it is something else entirely to actually be there. :wink:Greg

You can go ahead and wink your ass off, but you are not engaging in a good faith discussion.

And, you just admitted that you are making things up as you go. Not cool.

Winky smile trolling is still trolling. I'm done with you.

[Brant Gaede]

... if you make a space in front of you and courteously wave someone else to move over, that act also gets passed on, and you are also a conduit... except you're a conduit for good.

Except it's a serial killer fleeing the police with his latest victim tied up in the trunk.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

I am not aware of any theological or biblical support for Greg's spin on the doctrine, i. e., that the chain of original sin can be broken and not passed on to others, as he states in his original post I responded to.

Oh, really? :laugh:Jesus Christ was the ultimate kickass sin chain breaker of all time. Through Him even the very first sin of Adam was atoned for.Greg

You said above that the challenge was for each of us to "break the chain" and not pass it on to others.

Yeah, and you "break the chain" by taking your babies to be baptized! See, it's a partnership, you and JC!

Checkmate!!!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Tad,

I'll be more than glad to listen to it if you can properly identify it.

If not, I prefer to go with what I know.

What do I know? I know I don't recognize anything I have heard Glenn say (and I have heard a lot) when the idea is we can either go to the grave laughing and singing or screaming and kicking.

The closest thing I can think of is a dear friend of his just passed away, Hutch, and Glenn cried several times discussing Hutch's terminal cancer, both before and after he died. Hutch did laugh and joke a lot and claimed he was not afraid to die because of his faith. But he also hit people (and himself) hard with criticism. He was a no bullshit kind of man. Glenn admired Hutch's attitude and courage and put resources into making some shows with him before he was too weak to perform.

The main concern was for Hutch to leave a legacy to his descendants before it was too late--and Glenn felt to do so was something God wanted him to do to honor one of His servants (I'm using Glenn's religious language here). It was not that it is better to go singing and dancing to the grave because the only other choice is to go kicking and screaming.

The following is the kind of message Glenn constantly said about Hutch (I'm merely providing it because it is indicative of the things Glenn said and it is a pretty good overview of most of the things he said):

Top 10 reasons you think more people should want #Hutch

Hutch laughed and joked a lot because of the joy he felt in the certainty of his faith, not because he was making the best of a bad situation in an "oh well" kind of attitude. He was celebrating what, to him, was a good situation (living as God's servant) and expressing his joy about it. I know for a fact this is the way Glenn sees it.

But he still cried.

It's nuanced and Glenn always presents the nuance.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

To add to the previous post, this is off-topic, but the tone in the following video is very typical of the way Glenn talked to and about Hutch (it's an call-in interview last August between Glenn and Hutch).

Michael

[tmj]

MSK

Earlier in the thread the idea of weird, or fate or synchronicity was brought up, and used , I think, in such a way as to suggest to me that some enity was trying to tell me something. Perhaps it was said more in an offhand, tongue in cheek way and I inferred too much. I was simply pointing out another instance, a near miss deja vu kinda thing. That was it, nothing whatever to do with the intent of either party using the phrase, just the use of it.

Mr Beck is entertaining, I agree with a lot of what he has to say about politics and Politics, but when you delves into his religious beliefs it tends to make me cringe a little. I can hear a difference in his intonation a verbal cloak almost, its kinda freaky it comes and goes , he is a little all over the place, or that is how I hear him.

He's no Joel Olsteen(sp?)