Marc

Kind thanks sir , will check it out !

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http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/07/17/hamas-tv-childrens-show-encourages-the-killing-of-jews/ And this one is 90 seconds . This is who Israel should put down its arms against ?

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/07/17/absolutely-shocking-footage-of-children-being-used-as-human-shields-in-gaza-this-will-horrify-you/ This 30 second video shows who the Israelis are fighting in Gaza . Reminds me of Golda Meir who said something like there will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours .

Yaron Brook2 hrs · Breaking news from WSJ: "Israeli military says it has launched ground operation in Gaza" Let's hope they make this count by crushing Hamas -- good for Israel and for the Palestinians. Unlike

In the Hebrew bible , Jerusalem in mentioned 669 times . In the Koran , it is not mentioned once . Jerusalem means something to Jews , this was my point . Even as I do not believe in God and take no part in religion at all , " Next year in Jerusalem " , is powerful for me .

Israel is not an aircraft carrier or air base for the United States. If American planes are stationed on Israeli soil under American control then that'd be true. That was the case for Great Britain in WWII, in spades. --Brant For sure. No need at all. The US has fighter jets stationed in Jordan on Jordanian soil under US control, much less, Israel, and has for years. The number waxes and wanes based on current tensions. Since at least the 90s for sure, and probably since the 80s.. I've talked with warrant officers stationed at those bases, grumbling to me about spare parts for US F16s. The US F16s based in Jordan are among the world's worst kept secrets. By design. They do no good if nobody knows they are there. It is only domestically that they are some kind of half-assed national secret. Most of America thinks we were just in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is an expensive 8 lane logistic paved highway from Ike's MIC straight into the ME and has been for years. The US has bases in some number like 15 M.E. countries. The US wouldn't need a base in Isreal; they have their own crowded bases. How many Israelis in uniform in Israel? They don't need a US base in Israel; their bases are crowded already. They got an area the size of NJ covered quite well, as allies. Hey , I am just quoting what the former director of the CIA stated . Your fight is with him , not me

I don't post on OL or other lists nearly as much as I used so, so I had nearly forgotten how moronic some posters can be. Ghs Curious if you mean I am among the "moronic" posters or if you mean the ones who are making up facts and re writing history ? Just to clarify please ? Need I actually explain to you how on a site that is about Objectivism , even when we are not discussing Rand , her ideas and her great value in our world - we really must still be Objective . Now , if Israel and the history of Israel and the history of Jews for 5000 years trying to go home to Jerusalem is not your thing , then sit down and read and learn . I have read your amazing posts for years and will always . They are brilliant , you are brilliant . On this topic though sir , respectfully you are incorrect and calling me a moron does not make you right . Playing word games also will not change history . For 5000+ years we have been chanting " Next year in Jerusalem " . Five thousand years . I am giving you some homework sir , Research how many times Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem are each mentioned in the Koran . The real problem in Israel is not the "Palestinians" , not the 22 Arab nations trying to and praying and killing their own babies to destroy Israel , not the media , not the 5th pillar ,not even people like our banned friend . Her , I respect because she believes what she is saying , and she knows exactly why she is saying it . I would have loved to debate her . The reason is Israels weak leaders . Arabs respect strength , not weakness . Saying you're being moronic on a subject is not calling you a moron. You haven't been chanting anything for 5000 years, nor has anyone else, only affirming a collectivistic, tribal identity quite useful for shedding blood and being irrational. The more you've talked about Israel here--and Jews--the more irrational you have become, now unto a fulminating frenzy of an "objective" rant you are purblind to. This does make for good soldiering as long as those who give you your orders aren't nuts in how they use you. You are illustrating another reason for U.S. aid, influence and some serious control respecting what Israel does--keeping people like you out of the geo-political kitchen. --Brant Last point that you made about keeping people like me out of the geo political kitchen , I stated earlier that I am one of those Jews who fight back and don"t toe anyones line . I get the feeling that that alone irks you . I don't stand down , not to you , not to anyone . On another note though , Barbara Branden and I use to speak about Israel for 4 to 5 hours at a time , then spend time on her archives . Israel though was something she was very afraid about . First thing she would ask me every visit over all these years was what I thought about Israel . Be it , President Obama not going to visit in his first term , or also about a potential attack but I always calmed her down . I really miss her and wish she was here to add her views to this discussion .

...and the Jews took those lemons and made lemonade out of them, to the envy of the Arabs. Greg very true but not the issue . This was to explain to anyone interested that the palestinians currently have 85 percent of said land and Israel has 15 % , and a million+ Arab Israelis live in the 15% happily

I found that highlighted phrase quite intriguing. This is the alleged quote. <<<<I have not checked it's authenticity. A... Amen

If a key goal is to prevent a terror attack on a U.S. city, how does having what Marc and Jesse Helms call an "aircraft carrier in the ME" help? It is not a key goal . The key goal of the United States having a presence in the ME , is not an actual aircraft carrier but the entire state of Israel as the only true friend in the region with shared values . 1 State out of 23 that votes . Jesse Helms was addressing the United States foreign policy in the ME being that of a level playing field . Israel ensures this . No Israel , what do you think is going to happen ?

I don't post on OL or other lists nearly as much as I used so, so I had nearly forgotten how moronic some posters can be. Ghs Curious if you mean I am among the "moronic" posters or if you mean the ones who are making up facts and re writing history ? Just to clarify please ? Need I actually explain to you how on a site that is about Objectivism , even when we are not discussing Rand , her ideas and her great value in our world - we really must still be Objective . Now , if Israel and the history of Israel and the history of Jews for 5000 years trying to go home to Jerusalem is not your thing , then sit down and read and learn . I have read your amazing posts for years and will always . They are brilliant , you are brilliant . On this topic though sir , respectfully you are incorrect and calling me a moron does not make you right . Playing word games also will not change history . For 5000+ years we have been chanting " Next year in Jerusalem " . Five thousand years . I am giving you some homework sir , Research how many times Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem are each mentioned in the Koran . The real problem in Israel is not the "Palestinians" , not the 22 Arab nations trying to and praying and killing their own babies to destroy Israel , not the media , not the 5th pillar ,not even people like our banned friend . Her , I respect because she believes what she is saying , and she knows exactly why she is saying it . I would have loved to debate her . The reason is Israels weak leaders . Arabs respect strength , not weakness . Saying you're being moronic on a subject is not calling you a moron. You haven't been chanting anything for 5000 years, nor has anyone else, only affirming a collectivistic, tribal identity quite useful for shedding blood and being irrational. The more you've talked about Israel here--and Jews--the more irrational you have become, now unto a fulminating frenzy of an "objective" rant you are purblind to. This does make for good soldiering as long as those who give you your orders aren't nuts in how they use you. You are illustrating another reason for U.S. aid, influence and some serious control respecting what Israel does--keeping people like you out of the geo-political kitchen. --Brant He did not state I was being moronic on a subject , he said - and I quote "so I had nearly forgotten how moronic some posters can be". Unlike you my friend , no one gives me orders .

Toe the line ? Israel does not need to toe the line . Jewish blood is not that cheap . Why can a Jew nor an Israeli fight back ? During 911 , thank God we had a strong President in the White House who fought back . Thank God for President Bush in those times , God knows what Obama could have done/not done .Thank God Ronald Reagan fought back and warned Iran of what he would do . Iran respected President Reagan . If someone told you that the US should have shown restraint for 4000 dead bodies , would you preach the same slogan ? If someone "gave " the US 4 billion , do they then have the right to say " die " ? No , Israel does not need the United States to keep them from using a nuclear weapon for God sake ! Israel needs a nuclear weapon ( which by the way , they needed to trick the world to even obtain ) in order to keep themselves from being destroyed . They need planes and bullets too .

I don't post on OL or other lists nearly as much as I used so, so I had nearly forgotten how moronic some posters can be. Ghs Curious if you mean I am among the "moronic" posters or if you mean the ones who are making up facts and re writing history ? Just to clarify please ? Need I actually explain to you how on a site that is about Objectivism , even when we are not discussing Rand , her ideas and her great value in our world - we really must still be Objective . Now , if Israel and the history of Israel and the history of Jews for 5000 years trying to go home to Jerusalem is not your thing , then sit down and read and learn . I have read your amazing posts for years and will always . They are brilliant , you are brilliant . On this topic though sir , respectfully you are incorrect and calling me a moron does not make you right . Playing word games also will not change history . For 5000+ years we have been chanting " Next year in Jerusalem " . Five thousand years . I am giving you some homework sir , Research how many times Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem are each mentioned in the Koran . The real problem in Israel is not the "Palestinians" , not the 22 Arab nations trying to and praying and killing their own babies to destroy Israel , not the media , not the 5th pillar ,not even people like our banned friend . Her , I respect because she believes what she is saying , and she knows exactly why she is saying it . I would have loved to debate her . The reason is Israels weak leaders . Arabs respect strength , not weakness .

Marc, how much do the taxpayers of your country contribute through your government to propping up Israel? In this country, there is a long history of it. It is done primarily out of benevolence (with taxpayers' money) for the Jewish people in Israel and its symbolism against the holocaust. There are tap dances that try to twirl a self-interest-of-the-USA rationale, but it is empty air. It's hard for some to admit they do good things that they think good and that can't be justified by self-interest. Marc, the state of Israel and I are the same age. If it fails before I do, I'll be here along with 300 million other Americans (yes, we far outnumber the bigots presently acting like jackasses over immigrants from south of our border) welcoming all Israel's citizens to this land.I Do you really believe that the United States gives Israel money "out of benevolence " ? If so , I am respectfully asking you to explain how ?

I remember Jesse Helms who called Israel " Americas aircraft carrier in the ME " . Folks , and Nations have mutual benefits when dealing with each other . Altruism ? Does the United States "help" Israel , or do they have mutual interests ? Yeah they have shared moral values , and also shared business relations . By the way , the 3 or 4 billion that the US gives Israel as George Tenet stated in his book years ago , saves the US 10x what they give . Now , I am going to take the word of a former CIA director but everyone gets their own choice what to believe. Now in that deal , the Israelis must spend three quarters of that must be spent buying American goods and services- which is cool . Just making this seem like its totally altruistic really irks me .

The guy did not have a good point . Here is a guy who is taking about " As a boy " vis a vis the rabbi " with maps " . Both of these folks are not the issue . This is a site for Objectivists so all I ask for is an objective point of view . Lets use history , not the old man with his boyhood recollections and not an old Rabbi with paper . Facts following :THE U.N. PARTITION PLAN LEFT ONLY 25% OF THE ORIGINAL LAND PROMISED TO ISRAEL. THAT 25% WAS FURTHER REDUCED BY ALMOST HALF IN FURTHER CONCESSIONS TO ARAB DEMANDS. IN THE END, ARABS WERE AWARDED 85% OF THE BRITISH MANDATE LANDS, JEWS GETTING A PALTRY 15% OF WHAT HAD BEEN SET ASIDE FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND. IT WAS ROBBERY ON A GRAND SCALE! Thanks for the thoroughly statist rhetoric. By what conceivable right did the U.N. partition land in the first place? Or "set aside" privately owned land to be used by others in the formation of a new state? By all means let us forget about individual rights in the great enterprise of forming states. That's some peculiar type of Objectivism that you appear to endorse.But since you have such great respect for the U.N., you must surely approve of the 45 U.N. resolutions condemning Israel as of 2013. Right? Should the U.S. government ever confiscate your land, or anything else you own, I'm sure you will take comfort in knowing that your "recollections" of that theft count for nothing. Well, in a sense they don't. It was the objective act of theft, not the memory of it, that counts. Ghs And btw , its not "statist rhetoric" , its a fact . I simply cut and pasted a factual comment to show you something rather than some dude who had a recollection of life as a boy and about a rabbi showing maps ? I thought on an Objectivist website , someone as respected as you would enjoy facts . I also did not say I love or hate the UN , although I despise them . Lastly we are not talking about the US confiscating my land either . I really enjoy reading you over the years although usually I do not comment much . You know your stuff , no doubt . On this issue though , you are absolutely in need of more facts .

The guy did not have a good point . Here is a guy who is taking about " As a boy " vis a vis the rabbi " with maps " . Both of these folks are not the issue . This is a site for Objectivists so all I ask for is an objective point of view . Lets use history , not the old man with his boyhood recollections and not an old Rabbi with paper . Facts following :THE U.N. PARTITION PLAN LEFT ONLY 25% OF THE ORIGINAL LAND PROMISED TO ISRAEL. THAT 25% WAS FURTHER REDUCED BY ALMOST HALF IN FURTHER CONCESSIONS TO ARAB DEMANDS. IN THE END, ARABS WERE AWARDED 85% OF THE BRITISH MANDATE LANDS, JEWS GETTING A PALTRY 15% OF WHAT HAD BEEN SET ASIDE FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND. IT WAS ROBBERY ON A GRAND SCALE! Thanks for the thoroughly statist rhetoric. By what conceivable right did the U.N. partition land in the first place? Or "set aside" privately owned land to be used by others in the formation of a new state? By all means let us forget about individual rights in the great enterprise of forming states. That's some peculiar type of Objectivism that you appear to endorse.But since you have such great respect for the U.N., you must surely approve of the 45 U.N. resolutions condemning Israel as of 2013. Right? Should the U.S. government ever confiscate your land, or anything else you own, I'm sure you will take comfort in knowing that your "recollections" of that theft count for nothing. Well, in a sense they don't. It was the objective act of theft, not the memory of it, that counts. Ghs During the second world war , in Europe you would see written " Jew go home to Palestine " . Some Jews did go home . Israel is the size of New Jersey . Where should Jews live , on the moon ? You are showing the thread an op ed from the NY Times of some person , yeah ? And what ? I answered you with a fact . Now you are gonna tell me about how I love the UN ?????? Let me ask you something , where should Jews live ? Not Israel ?

"Senate Looks to Double Funds for Israel’s Iron Dome Missile Defense" – 7/15/14 Marc, the USA has made Israel possible and continues to do so. Painful as it might be to admit, the USA is a very generous and benevolent country. Why do you believe the United States is doing this ? Giving Israel all this money ? Why did the director if the CIA ( not the Mossad , the CIA ) state that about Israel in his book ? I love the United States , would prefer to live their over Canada or Israel actually but not the issue here . Why is the USA giving Israel money ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-how-to-fight-academic-bigotry/2014/01/09/64f482ee-795e-11e3-af7f-13bf0e9965f6_story.html http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/24/krauthammer-on-israel-palestinian-peace-talks-answer-always-no/ A few good articles by Krauthammer for the thread

The guy did not have a good point . Here is a guy who is taking about " As a boy " vis a vis the rabbi " with maps " . Both of these folks are not the issue . This is a site for Objectivists so all I ask for is an objective point of view . Lets use history , not the old man with his boyhood recollections and not an old Rabbi with paper . Facts following : THE U.N. PARTITION PLAN LEFT ONLY 25% OF THE ORIGINAL LAND PROMISED TO ISRAEL. THAT 25% WAS FURTHER REDUCED BY ALMOST HALF IN FURTHER CONCESSIONS TO ARAB DEMANDS. IN THE END, ARABS WERE AWARDED 85% OF THE BRITISH MANDATE LANDS, JEWS GETTING A PALTRY 15% OF WHAT HAD BEEN SET ASIDE FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND. IT WAS ROBBERY ON A GRAND SCALE!

Marc, In my experience, you would not have gotten anything rational or reasonable from her. Just snarling in an understated manner and snark--all in a tone of certainty. Michael In all seriousness this is how I see it . When I hear people discuss Ayn Rand , they state these ridiculous points about Rands name not coming from the typewriter due to the year , how many drinks Frank O Conner had in a day , and other stuff . Or they say Rand is a fascist or what have you , but they stay OFF point , why ? We both know that it is because they will lose the argument if they stay on point discussing Rands ideas . Same as this . We could stay on point about one issue . The actual number of Palestinian refugees , but if we did stay on point , especially our banned friend - then she would not have a toe nail , never mind a leg to stand on

Marc, Great to see you! She went too far? Heh. This has been building for a long time. She had already been under moderation once. Michael hahahhah !!!! I would prefer arguing with her , but I think she still is reading , and I hope she is !

George, We can take that logic back to the founding of the USA. By contextless right, this should be a country of Indian tribes, or rather, not a country at all. America should not exist. btw - Did the Indians have a right to war on each other as much as they did way back when? They sure weren't happy with losing their lands. Not even to each other. But I wouldn't be, either. Nobody who loses is happy about it. Conquest has been a value and process in the founding of every country on earth. Every single one. Modern civilization arose on top of this. It did not start magically in some utopian past and then history was a progression of violators against it. But for Jews, it's not permissible to have even a smidgen of this reality (and I say smidgen considering that vast tracts of Israel were legitimately purchased before Israel existed). It's not permissible for the USA, too, in some quarters. Why the double standard of allowing the enemies a tacit right to conquest? Put another way, who will feel gratified if an Arabian country conquers Israel? (I can think of many.) If such happens, will the new conquerors have the right to sack and pillage while the world looks to the side? Because that is exactly what they will do. I seriously doubt the new conquerors would instigate technological and farming boons so more Jews could flourish. Where will the moral crusaders be then? Taking time off? This, I believe, is what Ayn Rand was getting at in her controversial comments about Indians. People defend in all righteousness the brute and the ignorant. But they will not defend those of the mind. Want a good example? Where are the moral crusaders who were so busy and so righteous about the war in Iraq now that ISIS is arising and slaughtering people wholesale? I don't know of anyone who condones that, but I can't help but notice a total lack of moral enthusiasm by these same people who used to claim universality of their standards when the object of their criticism was the USA. I'm not a fan of conquest, but I'm not a fan of denying reality, either. A standard to be valid has to apply to all, not just to one collective. The same goes for exceptions to that standard. If XXXX is excepted (like backward cultures), so has to be all (like advanced cultures). I'm cool with saying conquest has to stop, then going through the messy process of making that happen. We are building a new world where we can get rid of conquest because humans have the capacity to acquire wisdom and create a world of abundance instead of scarcity. It's a choice so people of the mind can flourish (but not so new dictators can flourish). I love living at a time when I can witness this transformation. However, I don't agree--on a conceptual level--with applying this standard to mankind's nature as if conquest never existed universally up to now, or selectively applying it to cherry-picked collectives. That's incorrect epistemology in my understanding. Michael Michael, As indicated in an earlier post on this thread, I agree with you about the conquest origin of states. I also stated that there is nothing unique about Israel in this regard, so I don't single it out for special condemnation. Nevertheless, people who have been forcibly dispossessed by a nascent state tend to get pissed off, and they frequently attempt to defend themselves or, if that fails, to seek restitution or even revenge. In short, some Palestinians have a legitimate grievance against the state of Israel. It is not as if a bunch of pacifistic Jews settled in an uninhabited wilderness, made it blooom, and are now dealing with a bunch of ungrateful Palestinians. History cannot be reversed, so given the political status quo, Israel has as much right to defend itself as any nation does. It is idiotic and hypocritical for various terrorist groups, such as Hamas, to call for the extinction of Israel. Even worse, those Palestinians with legitimate grievances long ago made a terrible decision to resist Israel with violence. A Gandhian-style movement of nonviolent resistance would have been much more effective. Ghs Very good post . Just one point sir . Palestinians did not make that decision , the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia , Syria , The drug trade in the bekka valley , and these leaders push the Palestinians to resist with force . This is because they can then propagate to the world what they always do . As the saying goes , the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity

Marc, how much do the taxpayers of your country contribute through your government to propping up Israel? In this country, there is a long history of it. It is done primarily out of benevolence (with taxpayers' money) for the Jewish people in Israel and its symbolism against the holocaust. There are tap dances that try to twirl a self-interest-of-the-USA rationale, but it is empty air. It's hard for some to admit they do good things that they think good and that can't be justified by self-interest. Marc, the state of Israel and I are the same age. If it fails before I do, I'll be here along with 300+ other Americans (yes, we far outnumber the bigots presently acting like jackasses over immigrants from south of our border) welcoming all Israel's citizens to this land. I am not really going to write about the op ed letter that you included unless you want me to factually explain to you what the history of the Palestinians really is , not what one person writes in the NY Times . If you do wish , I could get into it and write about the true history . Just because so and so is a citizen of Israel , what does that mean ? I could find Rabbis in Israel who write garbage about untrue history . As a matter of fact , I remember years ago a group of Rabbis calling themselves Arafats' Rabbis . I mean who cares ? A is A , someone said , no ? My interest is addressing your incorrect comments . I am Canadian and I have no idea how much we give Israel . I do recall though a former CIA director wrote a book claiming that the US would need to invest 10x the amount of money in the region that they give to Israel ( at the time , I believe it was 4 billion annually ) if Israel did not exist . People and countries act in self interest . The United States has a level playing field strategy in the middle east . Lots of folks spoke about this . The US sells to both sides, directly or indirectly via 3rd countries . The United States is a military economy . I think I remember hearing when I was trading institutional derivatives and stocks that 70 % of the economy was indirectly military based ( please do not jump me on this point - I think that is what I heard 15 years ago ) . The United States does not " prop up Israel " , check out Start Up Nation , Tel Aviv is the second most important startup scene in the world after Silicon Valley .