Libertarian Muslim

I'm asking for equal standards here, what's good for the US is good for the Iranians too.. Unless someone wants to say that Iranians are not as equal to Americans in rights? Which I don't think you're saying. So, was it okay for the US government to fight against the Japanese whilst they were infringing on the rights of their own citizens by putting them in concentration camps where they were forced to do labor without pay? Yes or no please.. If it was needed for security then the Israelis could build the wall in their own territories and not the Palestinian ones rather than using that wall to take whole pieces of farming lands from Palestinians and using them to cut Palestinian towns off from each other and compartmentalize them, it's so the Israelis can claim that land for themselves in the future.. Most definitely a land grab.

This is a very complex situation. The Palestinians living in other Arab countries surrounding them are in fact refugees, refugees in any country are only given limited rights to work and live and most decide to become citizens if such countries allow them to. However, the Palestinians don't want to become citizens of other countries though, they want to go back to their own country that they were forced out of in 1948 and 1967 due to war, much of the reasons why they fled was due to fears of massacres by Zionist fanatics, when news spread that this happened and the fanatics said they'd carry out more the people fled for their lives.. This was a part of the Zionist plan from the beginning because they believed that they couldn't keep a secure Israel if the Jewish population was only at 60%. Then when the Palestinians fled for their lives and the Israelis didn't let them back in, the Israelis enacted absentee property owners acts which allowed them to take all of the land of the Palestinians that had fled.. The question regarding support is also interesting, Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria have limited support by the UN, neither Syria, Jordan nor Lebanon can afford to pay for everything, especially Syria because they now have a few million Iraqis living there in their cities.. These aren't rich countries at all. Palestinians in other countries in the Mid East however do provide immense support to Palestinian refugees including free scholarships etc, I met many Palestinian refugees in Qatar studying with me in university whilst I was there. But the issue of support has another side, the reason why Palestinians aren't given more support than they already are is because many Zionists already claim that simply because Jordan is now 60% Palestinian, that the Palestinian state should be in Jordan instead of Palestine.. So the more support that the Palestinians get and the Zionists see, the more excuses they use to say, well let them have a state in those lands. Others also claim that the 'Arabs' have so much land in the Middle East and the Jews had no country of their own there, so why not give a portion of it to the Jews to create their own state in lands which were due to be made a Palestinian State according to the British Mandate for Palestine as if that's some kind of legitimate excuse to force people from their lands, steal it and then create a state in them. This is why I don't get it when some Libertarians state that there was a right to create Israel under these circumstances.. How is that just at all? Do we then also believe that simply because someone has worked hard and earned a lot of money, that simply because they have a lot of money and I do not, that I should have a RIGHT to that person's wealth? No.. If it's not voluntarily given then you have no right to take it, if the Palestinians didn't voluntarily come to an agreement with the Zionists to give up on the mandate give the land over to create a state for Israel then there was no right to create it no matter what the UN or other governments said.. It broke a previous treaty. If you want to punish someone for Holocaust, punish the Europeans, British and Americans who provided immense support for the Nazis and cut a piece of land from Europe, Britain or the US to create a Jewish state in, otherwise leave it as a Palestinian state which was supposed to occur, that was the mandate and the legality of it. Then you must also be against sanctions like those that were put on Iraq from 1991-2003 that killed more than 1.5 million Iraqis, more than 500,000 of which were children under the age of 5. Sanctions are just as deadly, if not more than war.. The difference was that Hamas' attacks on Israeli cities were due to their lack of guided weapons and their understanding that Israelis will go into their bomb shelters, meaning that civilians would stay off of the streets.. They did this to bring them to the negotiating table because they refused to negotiate a new fair ceasefire.. I said the British and Australian governments who massacred much of the indigenous population of Australia and didn't even consider them human beings until 1965 and even after that took their children away from them and forced them into Christian Anglo homes to become 'civilized'.

A country that, as far as I know, does not recognize "rights" has the power to react. However, do they have the moral right? Adam Did the US have a moral right to react against the Japanese military after imprisoning more than a hundred thousand US citizens of Japanese background into forced labor camps and thus denying them their rights?

See that's the difference that people don't fully understand.. Yes, Hamas have that in their charter because Israel is a military occupation of Palestine.. However, they have offered a two state solution as meeting the Israelis half way to finally resolve the issue. If of course the Palestinians are forced to continue fighting as is the current situation then they'll fight to get every inch of land back but if the Israelis are willing to negotiate and have a proper peace agreement that is fair and just, then war can be avoided and peace can ensue.. What more can the Palestinians do? Also, Iran's president didn't threaten to wipe Israel off the face of the earth nor the map, there's no such phrase in Farsi.. He said that like the Soviet Union, Israel will disappear from the pages of time due to their internal policies, they have however threatened an overwhelming military response if Israel attacks Iran's nuclear facilities.. Which they have the right to do..

Thank you Michael, I am glad you agree.. I really do agree with Yoav Shamir in terms of his observations about a lot of Jews making their identity one of being persecuted.. I have worked in interfaith for years and unfortunately there have been many Jews, most of which were also Zionists who straight away would bring up how they've been persecuted and make this a part of their identity and they display huge oversensitivity's like for one example at a conference in 2007, a Catholic Priest called for the Muslims, Christians and Jews to line up next to each other so that each person could be partnered with a person of another faith and then some of the Jews were up in arms, getting so offended that they were asked to 'line up' as if what we were doing had any connection to the genocide which is just ridiculous. Jews have a lot to be proud of in terms of their contribution to this world in many fields including sciences and it's something that all people can admire.. But if they make their identity only that of a persecuted people and try and shame innocent people who question the actions of Israel constantly into submitting to them by calling them anti semites, then THAT will create anti semitism and resentment.. At that conference I witnessed many things and a lot happened after that like some of the Zionists there starting to claim I was a religious extremist who shouldn't be allowed near young Muslim students etc and slandering me behind my back saying that I said all Jews had no right to live and should die etc.. Which is silly, I had presented on a topic at the event along with a Christian and Jew which was the typical format, at only 22 at the time I was the youngest to ever present at this international conference and I presented on the Reconciliation of Memories aspect.. Before I spoke a Christian woman spoke and then a Jew named Manny Waks who was the Executive Officer of the Anti Defamation Commission then spoke.. Manny got up and was immediately quite hostile, saying that he didn't want to do interfaith dialogue with anyone who believed that it should be a one state solution, with anyone who believed that Hezbollah had the right to fight against the occupation of their lands in Southern Lebanon nor to secure the release of thousands of Lebanese civilians who were taken prisoner by the Israelis.. It was quite harsh and made everyone uncomfortable because it wasn't geared towards reconciliation and dialogue at all, it was geared towards him not wanting to speak to anyone except those who agree with him.. Which is not dialogue.. Up until this point, I had written no speech and I was immediately after him.. So as he was talking I jotted down some talking points and then spoke.. Below is as much of a transcription that I have of my presentation..

I think that God created the universe and that He set in motion a series of events that were the method of creating the universe as we know it.. That what did happen was the process to it.. I won't speculate as to the exact process because I don't know enough about it.. So I am, perhaps a Creationist..

Michael, please understand that my issue was not with what you wrote, your input on this thread has been pretty limited compared to the other thread and I've agreed with much of it.. My issue was instead with you not intervening when personal insults and wild and slanderous accusations are being thrown around which I really don't have so much of an issue with now because it appears that you have indeed done so since I raised my concern.. Thank you for that.. The thing is that I don't really want to waste my time on this forum if all I'm going to have to do is keep fighting misrepresentations of what I'm saying by people who's only only know how to win an argument by getting on top of a mountain and screaming how the person they are debating is a genocidal maniac who wants to murder all Jews when it's so blatantly clear otherwise.. I am totally sick of being misrepresented and the way that this constantly happens on here annoys me. I came on here to clarify what my understanding of the Islamic position of many issues is including about Libertarianism.. I don't have to speak about politics here, in fact I don't really want to because I don't like wasting my time debating with rabid Zionists like some of the people who are on this thread. Everything is the Palestinians fault to people like Leonid, Jeffry Smith, WhyNot and Ba'al... Even though it was the Israeli's that made a secret deal with the French and British to start the Suez War in 1956 so that the French and English could 'intervene' to protect their interests because Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal which was their right to do as it runs through their country. Check for yourself and you'll see that's true.. Research the Protocol of Sèvres The Israelis were the also the first to attack the Egyptians and Syrians in 1967 and had been training for those operations for at least 2 years earlier, the reason they won was because they attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria separately starting with Egypt and working their way to fight the Jordanians and then the Syrians. The fact is that the only war that the Arabs nations launched out of those mentioned previously was the 1973 war where Egypt took the Canal back and negotiated for the rest of their territories in the Sinai back and the Syrians also got involved too. Yet there is constant cries that they Arabs have always attacked the Israelis and by some miracle due to the devotion of their peace loving Israeliness, ingrained in their blood and free from all sins and possibly even from the biological need of farting, they have, against all odds defeated their bloodthirsty Arab aggressors.. They say that the Arabs don't stick to ceasefires but it was the Israelis who broke all of the recent ceasefires including the Oslo accords which would have led to a peace agreement by building more and more settlements.. Peace negotiations for them have turned into stalling tactics to build as many settlements as they can so that they can then claim that they can't give too much of the West Bank up because their citizens live there.. They say that the Palestinians and Arabs don't want peace and only want genocide and they give the reason that if it were true, the Palestinians wouldn't have rejected the amazing peace offer that they were given in 2000 where they were going to get all the occupied territories back in return for peace.. That's absolute rubbish and it's a smoking mirror... The Palestinians weren't offered a state, they were offered a piece of land that had no sovereignty, being unable to control their own airspace and borders as they would have come under Israeli authority, would any of us accept our country's airspace or borders controlled by a foreign power? Absolutely not, that's not a state at all.. Let's fast forward a little, they say that the Israelis closed the settlements in Gaza and that's a great thing, but what did they close? They took those settlements and moved them all to the West Bank and built even more on top of that.. What type of honor is that? So the Palestinians resist the treatment they're getting and vote in Hamas as their government which has proven itself in terms of grass roots work and anti corruption and so the Israelis and West punish the people of Gaza for exercising their rights.. They say that the Palestinians in Gaza deserve the treatment, war and destruction they get from the Israeli government because they elected Hamas into power.. Yet when Al Qaeda says that it's okay to kill US citizens because they elected their government into power that is occupying the Holy Land and in other places it's not okay.. So I hope you can understand that from that I and others take a simple message.. It's okay to kill and oppress Arabs if you're an Israeli or an American, even if you're occupying their land because they voted in a government that is against you, but it's definitely not okay to kill Americans or Israelis if you're an Arab, even if they're occupying your land and support their government by voting them in.. Now I'm not in any way supportive of Al Qaeda, but they aren't the only ones who use those tactics, so do the Israelis and Americans yet it then becomes okay for them to do so.. Is that how people like those who have such mentalities intend to win the Arabs and Muslims over? By using such blatant hypocrisy they are showing the Arabs and Muslims that the West believes that their lives are worth less than the Arabs and Muslims and that they are not equal? Yet you then wonder why Al Qaeda gets recruits? They don't attack the US and other countries because they hate your freedoms, they don't give a damn about that and it's such a cop out to say so.. They care about having the US occupying their lands and supporting the brutal dictatorships and monarchs there just so you can have stability to be able to get access to their natural resources at competitive prices while also preventing a superpower from emerging in those lands that could threaten US Superiority in the region, they care about not being able to have input into their own system and about not being able to change it because when they try, a Western backed and trained secret police officer takes them away, puts them in prison, tortures them and threatens to murder their family and tribe, if they are lucky they don't get killed, they just languish in prison for a number of years for an obscure crime like 'inciting hatred of the monarchy'. I don't believe the creation of Israel was just without a proper agreement from the Arabs and view it as a military occupation, but that doesn't mean I want to see war.. It's been far too long and this needs to be sorted out ASAP before more war occurs.. I just want to see a just peace agreement in place so that the Palestinians and Israelis can both have a state.. The Arab Peace Initiative is a very good deal and won't end in Israel's suicide, they have more than 200 nuclear warheads that guarantee their existence. The Palestinians also aren't genocidal and everyone knows it, it's just a typical ploy of Zionists who use this and try and compare it to the Holocaust just to ensure they get political support.. How truly disgusting that the memory of such a horrific event and all of the victims are being exploited by people who are doing the same things to the Palestinians as many Jewish Holocaust survivors have recently come out and said... Have these people no shame? Here's a documentary called Defamation by Yoav Shamir, an Israeli who exposed the type of behavior that certain people on the forum display.. Defamation by Yoav Shamir To be quite honest I have far better things to do than to waste my time with rabid Zionists like Ba'al, Whynot, Jeffry Smith and Leonid who don't even look at my sources, but just throw up the same old lines.. This discussion doesn't benefit me at all so why waste my time? I may just stick to the Islam threads and leave the rabid Zionists to themselves.. I'm over it..

As a former prison chaplain, I wonder why such people weren't vetted and checked to ensure they weren't going to cause trouble in prisons.. In Melbourne we didn't allow people like that in prisons because they try and create violent 'jihad' in the prison system.. This war, as I have said can't be won through war.. It's a war of ideas and terrorist attacks will become impossible to stop.. The US government is going about it the wrong way and this will lead to the demise of the US through over extending its military and through over spending..

Oh please, I am all for peace, but not at the expense of justice.. Without justice there can be no peace and it's funny how Zionists can expect justice for themselves after WW2 but then so quickly refuse to give justice to others.. I am talking about justice and that's what I've always talked about, it's only someone who would promote injustice that would fear and try and stop a person who has been a victim of violence and oppression from themselves retaliating with violence.. You would rather them just lay down and die quietly.. To suffer peacefully because it's too inconvenient for you to have your own sins and crimes against humanity brought right back up in your face.. Al-Shaheed Malik Al-Shabazz (Malcolm X) made it clear about people like you, sure he was referring to the conditions of African Americans but it was very clear about how the Anglo/American/European system of world domination through smoking mirrors worked and continues to work.. "There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life. That's a good religion. And nobody resents that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal. This is the way it is with the white man in America. He's a wolf and you're sheep. Any time a shepherd, a pastor, teaches you and me not to run from the white man and, at the same time, teaches us not to fight the white man, he's a traitor to you and me. Don't lay down a life all by itself. No, preserve your life, it's the best thing you've got. And if you've got to give it up, let it be even-steven." (Malcolm X- Message to the Grassroots) It is YOU who've been talking about Israel conquering lands and using that as a justification, and yet when I say that if it's okay for Israel, it's okay for others to do so you have a problem with that, because of course you don't believe that anyone but Israel has the right to conquer lands.. Again, this displays your hypocrisy.. Regarding violence, I have set conditions on when I believe violence would be appropriate and they are: 1. if Israel attacks Iran first militarily, then Iran has the right to retaliate militarily. 2. If Israel continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Palestinians and doesn't cease come to a just peace agreement, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to war to get that justice.. There's nothing wrong with either of those.. What if we replace some names around and it were: 1. If Japan attacks the US first militarily, then the US has the right to retaliate militarily. and 2. If Nazi Germany continues the way that it is going in terms of oppressing the Jews and doesn't cease and come to a just peace agreement with the allies, then if, God forbid all diplomatic avenues have been exhausted it should come down to a war to get that justice.. We KNOW in WW2 the US had the right of retaliation against the Japanese EVEN THOUGH it was the US who sunk a Japanese ship submarine prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbor and we ALSO KNOW that not only did we go to war against Nazi Germany for refusing to stop persecuting the Jews, but that even if it had agreed to a peace agreement it wouldn't have worked because their government was so dangerous that it HAD to be removed.. Did I hear anyone complain when a coalition of nations rightly went to war to help the Jews in WW2? No.. Why should they complain? It's standing up for justice. Or even when Israelis when to war with no right? No... I didn't.. Yet you then have an issue with people who are facing injustice resorting to violence when diplomatic means have failed.. How hypocritical, it's just another example of how it's okay for Europeans to use violence whether it's to get justice or spread injustice, but how it's not okay for non-Europeans to use violence to get justice.. Adonis, Fact? How do you know this? This is pure speculation being presented as fact. This is one of the rhetorical methods I intensely dislike in this kind of debate. The pro-Israel side does it, too. Even here in this discussion, some people are speculating about your motives and presenting them as fact. This is wrong. When speculation underpins a discussion, anything goes. The only thing that usually does not remain is rationality. Speculation is not a good premise for an argument unless one is doing scenario studies. But speculation is a good premise for one thing: it is a good premise for... speculation. The fact is that facts are so much better for understanding reality. The more heated an issue is, the more adherence to the facts are needed if reason is to prevail. Michael Have you even studied how Israel's economy works and how heavily it relies on foreign aid Michael? Perhaps go and do that before dismissing what I say as mere speculation.. I also find funny how I now see you intervene and comment but when I'm being directly and unfairly accused of promoting genocide and advocating the sending of Jews to gas chambers, a disgusting and despicable slander and insulted on this site you're then nowhere to be found.. Yet you claim to be against bigotry and that bigots should find another site.. Forgive me Michael but sometimes I wonder if you're selective in your application of that..

Arab Peace Initiative Is it fair for foreigners who don't belong in that land to decide the fate of the people in it, including what should happen with their lands? No, this was not a peace agreement it was a proposal to split the lands which were supposed to become Palestine according to the British Mandate of Palestine and give more than half of it away to people who didn't own it and create a state where there was no right, the majority of such people were recent refugees from Europe.. Is it fair to give half of Australia away to Afghan refugees who are fleeing the war simply because they would want their own country due to being persecuted by the Taliban and genocide has been committed against them and because they feel some connection to the land due to the significant Afghan cameleer population that came to help build the telegraph network and of those who did remain and didn't go back married into indigenous Australian communities more than 200 years prior a time which was much more recent than when the Jews claim to have exile from biblical Israel? I'm not saying Jews should go back to Germany at all, I explained this in an earlier post, although the Palestinians shouldn't suffer for the actions of the Germans and forget that rubbish that was brought up before about the Mufti of Palestine, he was a joke and his significance was limited in the grand scheme of things.. If you want to talk about real support for Hitler all you need to do is see the real criminals, the Germans, the Vatican, the Italian government, some of the British royal family, look at Prescott Bush, GW Bush's grandfather and his support through bank rolling the Nazis and supplying them with goods.. These are the criminals who should be paying for it.. The Palestinians don't have blood on their hands like these people.. Heck, there are some Zionists like those in the Stern Gang who approached Hitler seeking his support in removing the British from the lands who have more blood on their hands than the Palestinians. Let's not forget that it was the rabid Zionists armies who pushed the Palestinians into the sea in 1948 and forced many to leave by ship as they executed their plan to ethnically cleanse the land of Arabs because having Israel 60% Jew wasn't going to be 'stable' enough for them.. There was an exodus of more than 450,000 Palestinians as refugees in response to the massacres of Palestinians that were perpetrated by Zionist militias such as that in Dier Yasin. Defensive war? Hilarious! I also will remind you that contrary to your propaganda, in the 1967 war, the Arabs were NOT aggressors at all, it was the ISRAELIS who attacked and launched a war against the all of the different parties and had been practicing and rehearsing that war for at least two years prior to it occurring.. The fact is that in all but only a few of the wars that have been fought it was the Israelis that launched the wars claiming that they were 'pre-emptive', just like they are now claiming to intend to do with Hezbollah in Lebanon and are threatening to do against Iran, a move which will most certainly harm Israel like they'd never been harmed before.. Unless of course, Israel is willing to take the Samson Option and let the Nuclear Genie out of the bottle.. But that would only make it worse. Not true, Egypt offered this to the Israelis before the war in 1973 and Israel kept refusing, and so they launched a war to regain some of their territory and negotiate for the return of the rest of the Sinai.. No Sadat paid for other reasons.. You mean the fact that you can buy books like Mein Kampf on the streets in Cairo and Damascus? Big deal! I can buy them in Borders and on Amazon and there's no law against it here.. Censorship is wrong.. But I guess you're all for it when it suits you right? Haha, another myth.. Israel offered no such thing, Israel offered a non-state to the Palestinians, preventing them from being able to control their own borders and airspace, having no sovereignty at all.. How is that an offer to return lands? What utter rubbish, so much disinformation I just don't know where to start.. Also, Arafat didn't start the intifada based on that at all, it was the audacity of the butcher Ariel Sharon going onto the area of Al Aqsa that began it.. Even though, as previously mentioned I disagree with the tactic of suicide bombing, the bombers themselves targeted mostly Israeli soldiers, unfortunately in most cases however they were surrounded by civilians which in my opinion means such attacks should have been aborted, however Israel is guilty of not caring about 'collateral damage' and would prefer destroying a whole neighborhood full of people with bombs than to lose an Israeli soldier.. I saw it when I went to Dahiya in Beirut, Lebanon, a whole quarter where hundreds of thousands of people lived destroyed by Israeli bombs because they were considered to 'support terrorists'... Haha, you mean the 9 settlements it dismantled in Gaza and then rebuilt in the West Bank in addition to several more? Oh please.. more Half truths to deceive.. Oh please, Fatah lost the elections and refused to relinquish power to Hamas, when people protested Fatah started kidnapping protestors and Hamas supporters off the street and torturing them.. So Hamas seized power which they won through elections.. Also, this 'reign of terror' that they've supposedly had against their own people is rubbish.. What reign of terror? Where is the real evidence of such.. This is just propaganda by the West.. No, I think you don't understand it.. The fact is that due to Israel's policies and the way it runs internally, especially in terms of it's economy, it wont be able to sustain itself in the future and so, it will collapse and one day the US won't be able to bail it out any longer with aid.. Don't worry, the bully doesn't always hold the power, things change and the bully ends up paying for their crimes in most cases.. It's bound to happen in this case.. Israel can't keep military superiority, look how they got their rears handed to them by Hezbollah in 2006 and they are only a guerrilla group with limited weapons.. Imagine what would happen if it comes to a real regional power like Iran who arms and trains Hezbollah with all their significantly more advanced military tactics and technology? The myth of the Invincible Israeli Military has been squashed.. If Israel crosses the line and attacks Iran, then you can count on a military response on many fronts that would be overwhelming for not only Israel, but also the US military in the Gulf and Afghanistan.. I can assure you, the response has been well prepared for if Iran is ever attacked, which it has the right to do because it's not Iran threatening to attack Israel, it's the other way around..

Before you start ranting, slandering and misrepresenting what I say, perhaps you should go back and read my comments. At NO stage during this discussion did I or have I ever advocated 'sending the Jews back to Europe', that is YOUR paranoid interpretation and I most certainly didn't say they should be sent to gas chambers either.. Don't YOU ever feel ashamed about misrepresenting what people say to try and prove a point or is it that you have some psychological problem that causes you to immediately read things that aren't written? I'm really serious in asking that question because you seem to have a serious problem there that really needs addressing.. It is you who looks like the donkey here and not me.. You all talked about how Israel conquered the lands of Palestine in the wars and thus they should keep them, I agree that taking over land is conquering it but certain obligations to the citizens of those lands come with such conquests which have not been addressed and that still leaves the issues of the Palestinians that needs to be resolved, are they to be forever refugees in their own land or will they be exiled into another state completely or will Israel accept them as citizens? Well we know the latter option wont happen so then what is the solution? Is it as many Israeli academics and peace workers have stated that Israel's plan is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from the area as a 'final solution' to this problem. Therefore, what I did say was that if the there emerges one or more military powers in the region that can compete with Israel through conventional and guerrilla warfare who's governments are not puppets of the US and thus having the ability to turn the tables on Israeli military superiority in the region which aside from it's 200+ nuclear weapons has already been shown to be now a paper tiger after the 2006 war in Lebanon where Israel was outrightly defeated by Hezbollah and still the Israelis refuse to negotiate a just peace agreement then it would obviously require further action. That is, if the situation gets so bad for the Palestinians in terms of human rights and diplomacy fails and that the only option to avoid a humanitarian disaster is for a one or more of these regional powers to militarily intervene to restore the Palestinian people's rights and a war ensues to bring the Israelis back to the negotiating table and yet still the Israelis refuse to accept a just peace agreement then clearly, the only option left to ensure the rights of Palestinians would be to militarily take over aka 'Conquer' Israel like they had conquered the Palestinian territories in 1948 and 1967 and create a one state solution where all people, regardless of race or religion should be able to live there with equal rights... There won't be any massacres or anything like that of the Jews, they can stay and live freely. This is in line with Islamic history where in many occasions the inhabitants of a country that fought the Muslims were forgiven and not massacred whether it was the Quraish of Mecca once it was taken over or whether it was the Christians of the Crusader State, the majority of whom were sent back to Europe freely. But, if any Zionists should happen to want to live in a different type of state then so be it, they can leave and head back to Europe, it was the Europeans and their supporters in America that helped spur Hitler and the Nazi Party into power initially and many of whom supported him during the genocide, and therefore, let EUROPE give up some land for a Zionist state to be created in Europe.

Excuse me?

He's innocent, the Malaysian government has a lot of serious issues that need to be worked out and Anwar Ibrahim is a reformer and wants to stop the stupid and downright discriminatory policies of the government. The government and power holders who are ethnic Malays don't want Chinese people from gaining more money or power in the community. The war on 'terror' can't be won through war and sophisticated body scanners will be overcome through other means, it's the nature of war. This is a war of ideas that can't ever be won with war, the US will definitely collapse like the Soviet Union before they wipe out the extremists because for each extremist they kill, they create collateral damage which in turn creates more people who see the only means to fight against occupation of their land or to avenge their loved ones is to join the extremists.. This war will only be won through the USA stop trying to rule the Middle East, stops interfering with internal politics of other nations through covert and overt means and then returns to the principles that the Founding Fathers had in creating the nation. If the US simply shows the world liberty and justice without trying to impose itself on the Middle East, the extremist groups will lose all credibility and they would lose any support or funding.. People will come running with arms wide open in terms of trying to build great relationships with the USA because it will be their choice and they'll see the beauty of Libertarian theory..

Ba'al, do you ever give it a rest? This is an expression from my heart.. You can't correct expression or poetry..

Thank you Tony.. The lamentations of loneliness I suppose..

In terms of miracles.. Well I personally haven't seen anything on the scale of the Fatima incident and other than a few personal experiences big to me but small in the grand scheme of things that I'll put down as miracles I can't say that I know too much about them in the Muslim community.. But then again, I haven't really looked sorry!

Oh please, what utter nonsense and rubbish.. What just peace offer has Israel offered the Palestinians? Hamas has stuck to the ceasefires they've agreed to and also offered Israel peace and recognition as a state, what has Israel offered the Palestinians other than blockades, assassinations, incursions and bombing? How typical of the Zionists to put all the blame on the Palestinians when it is the Zionists themselves who clearly don't want a just peace.. They don't even want the Palestinians who were forced out of their homes since Israel's creation to come back and be Israelis and yet you claim they want to grant all citizens equal rights.. Preposterous..

It wasn't general knowledge, they knew the highjackers were up to things.. Let's not forget that an Israeli company had two of it's employees warned more than 2 hours before the attacks were to occur on 9/11 and that's been widely reported on.

Additionally, are you alleging that they had general or specific knowledge? Adam DOPED Director of Probative Evidence Department There's been a few pieces of this information released so far on this.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6110095161238848541&ei=t_9oS9OYAoGswgPWot0U&q=israel+9%2F11+# There's more information than this also available.. But I'd suggest opening another thread for it if you want to be specific.

Eternal Promises, Broken Do you Remember? Before time began, our souls happened to meet.. Your presence was amazing and so I turned, Your soul radiated light and my passion burned.. It was just us together back then.. You and I Those few brief moments we spent together.. We prayed that they'd last forever.. More than love at first sight.. It was a love so bright Like the brightest full moon on the darkest of nights I remember so clearly, as you left, You promised that you'd come back to me... And so I wait.. I've waited so long.. And now, I feel empty.. 60 Seconds in a Minute.. 60 Minutes in an Hour.. 24 Hours in a Day.. 7 Days in a Week.. 4 Weeks in a Month.. 12 Months in a Year.. 25 Years I've been here.. For 25 Years I've been incomplete.. And so I lay here, broken in defeat.. So I still wait.. I wait for you to fulfill your promise.. Forgive me now, I have to be honest.. I wait for you to serenade your sweet song of love to me.. As my head lay in your lap, you resting against an oak tree.. Like that old song goes, It's just you and me, just us.. We're that ebony and ivory.. To engage with me in passionate discussion and debate.. Our own little world free from other people's hate.. To share your dreams with me and I with you.. As we work hard together to make them all come true.. For you to sleep in my arms and be there when I wake, I remember clearly it was no mistake.. So where are you my love? I now sit and lament.. Could it be that you had an event? An engagement or meeting? This waiting is nothing less than defeating.. I sit here praying for us to once again meet.. A love like ours, so profound and deep, I can't think about it without my knees growing weak, A love so far reaching and earth shattering that at it's sight, God's angels weep There could be no greater pain like that which I feel in my heart, In limbo I wait for our lives together to start.. So, where are you my love? You promised you'd come..

Yeah, just like some also believe that Moses peace be upon him split the Red Sea.. Whatever God grants in power to His messengers is His right to do. BTW Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 going to occur before the attacks and didn't pass it on to US investigators.

Barrage of facts my foot.. Before you start giving more narratives, perhaps you should first ask why I haven't responded.. Maybe I haven't responded because I am incredibly busy in my preparations for university plus my work in addition to many other community things I'm involved in.. This thread is not a priority for me because it has nothing to do with Islam and is more of a political issue and so I don't respond very often.. Funny though, the Israeli Government and settlers have torn down half a million olive trees in Palestine in the last few years and all you're offering to give back just a branch? That's very typical of Israeli policy, take everything and offer only a small amount as a peace offering and expecting that to be sufficient.. Just like what is technically left of the West Bank in terms of what the Palestinians have and this is being made smaller and smaller every day by the settlers and Israeli military.. .. My view is staying the same. There was no right to create the state and therefore it is a military occupation and has no right to 'exist' and thus, the Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation of their land. There must be a fair peace agreement immediately to establish a Palestinian state and give legitimacy to Israel as a state and end 60 years of war.. Enough is enough.. And sure, if you don't want a fair peace agreement that's fine.. But Israel won't last forever, it's internal policies will collapse the state within another 60 years and the world is slowly turning against Israel after seeing their barbaric actions against the Palestinians.. So if the tables one day turn and Israel somehow loses military superiority yet still refuses to give a just peace to the Palestinians then war will be the only answer and then I'd support war against the occupation and the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine if they refuse to live in a state that guarantees the rights of all people in that land as a one state solution.. They can go back to Europe and let them take some of the land of the Germans and Italians, they were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians.

Can you provide me with what your understanding of a miracle is? Sorry I think this is important to define first.. What I may consider a miracle you may not. True, but then again, I don't know if not committing genocide is something anyone should be applauded for.. :-P This is hilarious, Lindsay Perigo also thought I wasn't real. So I challenged him to call me on the telephone and even meet me in Auckland and he didn't. I don't understand how my language usage would indicate that I'm an American Prankster or troll. People assume too much.

What is your problem with how I use American English? I still don't understand what your problem is.. You're entitled to your opinions on barbarism, I disagree.. I don't think the punishments mentioned previously are barbaric if applied properly. Also, Islam doesn't prevent a free flow of information.. In fact it encourages learning about everything.. Again, I am curious, did you actually read it what I wrote and look through all the links, articles and youtube videos that I posted? I'm sorry, I don't see Islam as being responsible for social practices, especially when Islam forbids those practices and the perpetrators in most case don't even understand Islam or are extremists..

So, let me get this straight... You're stating that the fact that I speak very good English and in particular that of American English, rarely using British or International English must mean that I am not a Muslim and an American Prankster/Troll.. Is that because you believe that Muslims don't know American English and can't speak it with any eloquence?? Did you ever think to ask why it is that I use American English rather than British English? You can claim what I believe is barbaric, but that's your opinion of what barbaric is.. You can criticize all that you wish as can anyone else here. I feel no need to defend my beliefs to you nor to anyone else, only to clarify what my understanding is of Islam which has been my intention all the while. I have been Muslim now for 9 years and have studied quite a bit and held several positions including being a prison chaplain and an interfaith worker for an international interfaith organization. I carry excellent references from both the Islamic Council of Victoria, the peak representative body for the Muslim community in the state of Victoria, Australia as well as from the Doha International Center for Interfaith Dialogue in Qatar. I think I've shown quite well how Islam is inherently libertarian and find myself wondering if you actually read any of the article links I posted, or the websites or even the interview I posted online from youtube?