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Do any of you see any of Trump’s political philosophy in Jefferson or Rand?

Peter,

Sure. I've said several things several times, but you never comment on them.

Here's a simple one: Nat Taggart.

I have heard Trump supporters COMPARE him to different people but I don't take that as proof, nor do I expect him to pontificate like a scholar or a philosopher.

Peter,

That's all you have to say about Rand's political philosophy as demonstrated by one of her heroes?

Nat Taggart will not go away, nor will he change his nature, just because you refuse to address what he means.

It seems like you ask questions, but when you get a substantive answer that does not agree with your view, rather than comment, you ignore it.

You clearly asked if I see any of Trump’s political philosophy in Rand. You have asked similar questions before.

I clearly answered, "Sure. Nat Taggart." Several times. And I have elaborated. (This has not been my only answer, but I'll stick with it for now because it illustrates the process.)

And to elaborate further, Randian heroes always bend the rules when they make larger-than-life projects. Always. That comes with the territory of being larger than life. Being a genius. Being a producer. Randian heroes are not willing rule followers if the rules (made by others) do not reflect the reality they are dealing with. Translated to political philosophy, this makes for messy situations at times.

That's how Trump can be Randian on one level and still have some inconsistencies. And that's why Trump's inconsistencies are not as important as the productive side to people like me.

If the same pattern keeps going, tomorrow I believe there is a good possibility you will ask I see any of Trump’s political philosophy in Rand.

Disagreeing is one thing.

But not even half a word?

:smile:

Seriously, do you want an answer from what Trump supporters see, or do you want the answer you want to hear (or maybe an easy strawman to knock down) and pretend Trump supporters don't see anything other than the glitter of a pop star?

Being a Trump supporter does not equal being stupid, blind, temporarily insane, dupe to a con man or any of that other stuff that always comes as an explanation by those who are surprised.

Trump supporters have good minds and they use them.

Michael

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Michael wrote: I clearly answered, "Sure. Nat Taggart." end quote

Of course I see Nat Taggart in Donald Trump, who is a guy who bribes politicians, maybe kills, definitely bullies, and does all kinds of bad things to others, to build his empire. Rand might repudiate him as a scoundrel, swindler, evader, intrincisist, fascist, crony capitalist, and so on, but she did have Dagny stop at the statue of a SIMILAR person, Nat Taggart, and feel one of the closest feelings she came to religious worship. You do know I am paraphrasing you, right Michael? So, is Donald Trump like a Randian hero, to be Worshipped by Randians? Not me. I want change. I sorta like his bluster. But after listening to about a half hour of his Alabama speech I heard little to do with free markets. To me he is sounding more like a Statist. He is not the opposite of Rand Paul and Ted Cruz and he would be better than Old Hickory Clinton, but he does not sound like Ayn Rand the polemicist, even if he sounds like a Randian rogue and character.

I remember the tightrope she walked with Ragnar and dealing with the sort of President Mr. Thompson. Ayn knew of much worse in The Soviet Union. ON WITH THE EVIDENCE. How about a blast from the past predicting the future? How soon we forget. And this article was from five years ago! Wow. Back then we had “festering inflation” but we don’t calculate it the same way anymore. Using *NEW SPEAK,* the 17 trillion dollar debt is now *manageable* thanks to the Progressives. But do we have the Same Old Trump? SOT? I keep looking for some catchy convention chants. Maybe I will go this year and not boo. Do you need to be invited? I guess I could forge some press credentials.
Peter

Johathan Hoenig wrote in 2011: A recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found Donald Trump tied with former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee for second among primary voters as their pick for the Republican nomination for president. Aside from the attention he has received for questioning whether President Barack Obama was born in the United States, Trump’s primary appeal is undoubtedly his business experience. Given the nation’s festering inflation , exploding deficit and still moribund economy, there’s obvious interest in leaders who promote fiscal conservatism, capitalism and growth. The problem is: Donald Trump isn’t one of those leaders.
[…]
For example, Trump professes to support free trade, yet proposes a 25% tax on imported goods from China to level what he sees as trade imbalances in the global economy. It’s a contemptuous proposal which would immediately punish Americans by raising the price on virtually everything we buy. He has also called for regulators to stop European stock operator Deutsche Börse’s planned $9.5 billion buyout of the NYSE Euronext, telling Fox Business Network, “I don’t want foreign countries owning the New York Stock Exchange.” If he was the president, he added, he “wouldn’t even have allowed the discussions to take place.” In a capitalist country, shareholders make that kind of decision, not regulators. Trump sees a clear role for government picking winners and losers in the economy, just the same as the previous presidents he claims to critique. On top of that, he has pushed for a one-time 14.25% tax on the rich as a means of supplementing funding for Social Security and Medicaid, along with universal health care . Philosophically, those positions are indistinguishable from the anti-capitalist political establishment now in power.

Trump, of course, is free to run and support whatever platform he wishes, as are his many fans across the country. But despite his personal fortune, they should know his proposals and political philosophy are far from capitalist. Punitive and redistributionist taxes, centralized planning, barriers to trade and an entitlement “social safety net” are all ideas straight out of Karl Marx , not John Galt.
end quote

Jason Pye on a site called United Liberty - Free Market Individual Liberty, limited Government responded to the above: Hoenig is dead on. Trump is a joke and some of the position he has taken, including many repeated in his speech at CPAC, would put us where we were in the aftermath of Smoot-Hawley – a misguided policy pushed by Herbert Hoover in the aftermath of the stock market crash in 1929. The economy was showing signs of recovery before Smoot-Hawley was passed, but that came a grinding halt and the tariff bill led to the Great Depression. Sadly, Trump was cheered on by many of the so-called conservatives in attendance when he talked of pursuing a restrictive trade agenda. Let’s just hope Trump, who hasn’t exactly run his businesses responsibly, is trying to increase his ratings for his TV show and isn’t serious about a presidential bid.
end quote

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Feel free to cheer for the home team. Once again I am not bashing Trump but I think a careful, unemotional analysis CAN PREDICT what philosophy a President Trump would have, and what actions he would take. I remember Romney told us exactly what he would do in his first 24 hours and his first 60 days in office. Wait until Trump's foreign Fraulein starts talking in front of the camera. What do current Olanders (besides Robert Tracinski) think now?

From the Cato Institute, Trumps Real Problem, By David Boaz This article appeared in Washington Times on July 22, 2015.

Donald Trump has shot to the top of Republican presidential polls on the strength of his celebrity and his bombastic talk. Elites on all sides of the political spectrum liberals, conservatives, and libertarians are horrified by his ranting about Mexican rapists. And he may have shot himself in the foot with his comments about Senator John McCain. But his poll numbers are still up there. Some voters like his tough talk about illegal immigration. But I think more just prefer businessmen to politicians. Nineteen percent voted for billionaire Ross Perot in 1992, against George Bush and Bill Clinton, even after Perot temporarily withdrew from the race on the very odd grounds that the Bush campaign was trying to disrupt his daughters wedding.

Voters sense that businesspeople deal in reality, not rhetoric. They get things done. Thats why theres always a yearning from someone from outside politics to come in and clean up government.

Unfortunately, just because a businessman understands making deals and building hotels doesnt mean he understands economics.

The website ThinkProgress talked to three Trump voters at the Family Leadership Summit in Iowa, all of whom emphasized that point. I just think we need a business man to run the country like a business, Jim Nelle, a small business owner from Winterset, Iowa, said. David Brown, a farmer and investor from New Virginia, Iowa, noted, Were not broke, were $19 trillion past broke and I believe that he has the business acumen and wisdom to bring the nation back. And Bill Raine of New Hampton put it simply: Hes a businessman, hes not a politician.

Unfortunately, just because a businessman understands making deals and building hotels doesnt mean he understands economics. Trump is definitely an example of that.

What hes really offering is a mixture of nationalism and protectionist economics along with the promise that hes the guy, the man on a white horse, who can ride into Washington and fix the mess. He dismisses politicians, other candidates, and American negotiators as stupid people, incompetent people, and losers. He boasts of his wealth and promises that he would kick [the] ass of El Chapo, the Mexican drug cartel leader who escaped from prison.

Look at his major issues. Hes been barnstorming the country talking about crime by Mexican immigrants, starting with his claim in his announcement speech that theyre bringing drugs, theyre bringing crime, theyre rapists. But theres no evidence for this. Immigrants are about half as likely to be incarcerated as native-born Americans (men aged 18-39 in both cases), and as the number of legal and illegal immigrants rose in the United States between 1990 and 2010, the rates of violent and property crime fell.

Youd think Mr. Trump would be more sympathetic to immigration. His mother was born in Scotland. His grandfather Trump was born in Germany. His first wife Ivana was born in Czechoslovakia, his current wife Melania was born in Yugoslavia. A genealogist writes on About.com, Donald Trump epitomizes the American immigrant experience.

Mr. Trump also doesnt much like free trade. He regularly rails that China is taking all our jobs. He laments that we have thousands of cars, millions of cars coming inThey send cars, we send corn. Which actually sounds like a pretty good trade.

At his recent FreedomFest speech he complained about call centers in India, asking, How can it be that far away and they save money?

No real businessman would ask such a question. If it werent cheaper, businesses wouldnt do it. Labor is expensive in the United States, cheaper in India and China. So jobs that can be done in cheaper locations are done there, and Americans move into higher-value, higher-paying jobs. The average American wage is now $25 per hour. Employees in Indian call centers make about $2 per hour, a good wage in India but not one that many Americans are looking for.

Mr. Trump doesnt draw on economics to defend his trade position. Its all about him, the Donald, just being richer and smarter than the politicians: Free trade is terrible. Free trade can be wonderful if you have smart people. But we have stupid people. Our trade deals have been made by incompetent people. He, on the other hand, will make great trade deals. But deals have to be good for both sides. He knows that when he builds a building. But he wants voters to believe that he can just bludgeon China or Japan into what? Not sending us cars? Not letting us outsource low-value labor to low-cost workers? Hed be hard-pressed to find any professional economist, Democrat or Republican, to serve in an administration based on such nonsense.

This all about me approach extends to most issues. The deficit? Hes promised to end the corporate income tax, cut individual taxes, and cut spending but without cutting the biggest programs. How will that work? I am going to save Social Security without any cuts. I know where to get the money from. Nobody else does.

I could get behind the idea of a businessman instead of a politician. But not this businessman, who offers only insults, secret plans, and a promise to kick everybody elses ass.

end quote

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Peter,

At least you now acknowledge I am seeing something you are not. You said the name, Nat Taggart.

(Yay!)

:smile:

That's a start.

I'm not persuaded by your arguments though. Trump is primarily a doer, not talker (although he does talk a lot). The world is graced by what he has done. He literally made the world a more beautiful place where he has passed.

That counts a lot more to me than over-extending speculations on his rhetoric.

In my mind, I think: What is Trump going to do, enslave everyone and take their stuff, or do more of what he has done all his life?

I believe he will do more of what he has done all his life.

Other people think he will take their stuff and enslave them. It's their right to think that.

But I'm still going to say what I think--and, from the looks of it, many people who think like I do think this makes sense.

btw - I love the Koch brothers, but I am not too crazy about what many of the people they support do. Like that Tucker guy from FEE who calls Trump a fascist. From what I have seen, Tucker is not too popular in many areas of the libertarian and Objectivist world. So why is he all of a sudden a genius? I could go on and on in a similar vein with other Trump critics from our neck of the woods.

Besides, they are marketing pikers when compared to Trump, not meme-making public manipulators.

:smile:

Michael

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Here's a quick thought for those talking about crony capitalism.

Trump, to my knowledge, has never tried to promote a war so he can profit from it.

He is not a war profiteer, like so many of the old Republican moneyed gentry is. (And Democrat, for that matter.) Also, outside of war, there is a world of difference between how Trump made his money and how someone like George Soros made his.

If Trump becomes president, and I intend to vote for him, I believe a lot of people used to blood profits are going to need to look for work.

:smile:

They shouldn't use killing off young Americans as a business model, anyway.

Michael

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... Even trying to downplay the number of people, there were still, by Wapo's own estimate, "perhaps" 20,000 people there (half of "perhaps" the 40,000 the stadium holds). There were probably more, but the verbiage was framed to downplay the size of the crowd.

At least some news outlets are trying to keep it real:

30,000 turn out for Trump's Alabama pep rally

By Theodore Schleifer and Noah Gray

CNN

August 21, 2015

From the article:

The event was previously planned to be held at the nearby Civic Center but was moved to the 43,000-seat Ladd-Peebles Stadium -- a venue normally home to high school football games -- to accommodate the crowd. The City of Mobile confirmed late Friday that 30,000 people attended.

There.

That's better.

Michael

EDIT: I can't resist this. I have to give some of the ideological purists a little heartburn. :)

From the Alabama rally:

08.22.2015-17.56.png

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Michael,

One would think that with all of Trump's business experience & success he would be railing against government regulation, the minimum wage and taxes. I agree with what Peter said in post 928: "Unfortunately, just because a businessman understands making deals and building hotels doesn't mean he understands economics. Trump is definitely an example of that" and "I could get behind the idea of a businessman instead of a politician. But not this businessman, who offers only insults, secret plans, and a promise to kick everybody else's ass"

Oh I'll vote for The Punisher if he makes it to the final dance, but I'd rather see Ted Cruz sitting in the big chair.

-Joe

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Michael wrote: He is not a war profiteer, like so many of the old Republican moneyed gentry is. (And Democrat, for that matter.) Also, outside of war, there is a world of difference between how Trump made his money and how someone like George Soros made his.

end quote

I agree. But how are you SO sure what a President Trump would do? Do you have ANY worries he will operate a crony, capitalistic system? Where is your evidence coming from other than his buildings, his wealth, his rebellious nature, his likeness to Randian characters, his beautiful wife, his good looking kids, his wonderful houses, your gut feeling, his big rallies . . . . uh. Not going to change your mind am I? Well, did you see that sign at the Alabama rally? Thank you, Lord Jesus For President Trump. Why do you keep doing this to me Michael? Aaaargh!

In the beginning Rand created The Objectivist Newsletter which forever changed the heavens and the earth. Oland was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of Reason and Rationality was moving over the surface of the waters, from Russia . . . to America.

And then she wrote Volume One, Page one, of the Newsletters very first words: Objectivism is a philosophical movement; since politics is a branch of philosophy, Objectivism advocates certain political principles -- specifically, those of laissez-faire Capitalism -- as the consequence and the ultimate practical application of its fundamental philosophical principles. It does not regard politics as a separate or primary goal, that is: as a goal that can be achieved without a wider ideological context.

Politics is based on three other philosophical disciplines; metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics -- on a theory of mans nature and of mans relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice. When, however, men attempt to rush into politics without such a base, the result is that embarrassing conglomerations of impotence, futility, inconsistency and superficiality which is loosely designated as conservatism. Objectivists are not conservatives. We are *radicals for capitalism*; we are fighting for that philosophical base which capitalism does not have and without which it was doomed to perish.

A change in a countrys political ideas has to be preceded by a change in its cultural trends; a cultural movement is the necessary precondition of a political movement . . . .

end quote

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Michael,

One would think that with all of Trump's business experience & success he would be railing against government regulation, the minimum wage and taxes.

Why? He has his lawyers and accountants. His philosophy is making something work regardless. He is going to make government work if elected. As with anybody else elected the result could be disastrous. The best way to make government "work" is to make government stop working. He'll just redirect some of it and touch little overall. He is not a conservative. He is not a libertarian. He is an American. He is Greg

--Brant

American

but he's not me, Lord (or thee), no, no, no--not me!

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Yes he is an American... who seems to advocate a mixed economy, not to the extent the thugs in the present Administration do

but certainly enough to bother me.

-J

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Folks:

One of Sandler Selling Systems truisms is:

"Never spill your candy in the lobby."

Why would Trump announce any positives in advance to a drug ridden statist regime in Mexico?

We are going to build a wall.

We will make it extremely unprofitable for Mexico to take advantage of the US.

This is not a libertarian-objectivist wet dream of "free trade uber alles."

Sierra048.jpg

This is a pivotal election to drive a serious breach into this omnivorous administrative state.

You keep them guessing how much economic pain we are prepared to mete out.

KISS baby, KISS - elections are sales on steroids.

A...

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Donald Rump

Hello. My name is Donald Rump. I'm worth 10 million dollars. I'm running for Mayor of Bayone, NJ. I built a parking garage in Bayone, the RumpTM. It provides me with some of my income and employment for seven non-illegal immigrants. I will deport all illegals in Bayone to Trenton. If we can't control our borders we don't have a town!

>>>>>(News alert: Investigative journalism reveals Rump is only worth a million, if that. And he's a loan shark and he inherited the garage.)

--The DonaldTM

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Adam, who is that girl with the rose tinted glasses?

I just saw this on The WWW: Aspiring Chef Lives in the Tiniest Apartment Ever.

And then Adam wrote: We will make it extremely unprofitable for Mexico to take advantage of the US.
end quote

Crap. That tiny apartment, which is worth looking at, by the way, reminded me of my old radio shack when I was in the army. Accept I peed in a bamboo tube pounded into the ground. But thank you guys for the funny posts. Why don’t we make it profitable for Mexico to trade with us?

I can remember one of the few times in my life I was probably clinically depressed, like it was yesterday. I was back in the States from Korea. The only paper I had been reading for two years was the Army Times. I listened to U.S. Army radio over there. Then I was back and living near San Francisco. It was the time of Vietnam. 1969. And I was totally out of the loop. Sigh. Just kidding but put your earphones on and listen to this.

THE YOUNGBLOODS, “Get Together”
Love is but a song to sing
Fear's the way we die
You can make the mountains ring
Or make the angels cry
Though the bird is on the wing
And you may not know why
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now
Some may come and some may go
We shall surely pass
When the one that left us here
Returns for us at last
We are but a moment's sunlight
Fading in the grass
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now . . .
If you hear the song I sing
You will understand (listen!)
You hold the key to love and fear
All in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
It's there at you command
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now . . . .
end quote

What a depressing song and a depressing time. Why am I happy now? Reason. Logic. Beer. Have a good night. And so to bed.
Peter

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But how are you SO sure what a President Trump would do? Do you have ANY worries he will operate a crony, capitalistic system? Where is your evidence coming from other than his buildings, his wealth, his rebellious nature, his likeness to Randian characters, his beautiful wife, his good looking kids, his wonderful houses, your gut feeling, his big rallies . . . . uh. Not going to change your mind am I?

Peter,

I'm not 100% certain sure. But reasonably sure. In truth, anything could happen.

But that applies to all the candidates.

As to me changing my mind?

Not a chance in hell.

:smile:

I want to correct a misunderstanding though. Donald Trump is not my idea of a perfect candidate. He is an intermediate candidate.

It's like we are on a bigass ship heading the wrong way toward some sharp dangerous shoals. Our current captain's strategy is full steam ahead, but we will soon be changing our captain.

In this situation, do we really want a new captain totally conversant in--and a master of--the laws of the sea, or do we want a rough-and-ready get-'er-done guy who swears at his own mother, doesn't mind throwing some shit overboard or crashing into a smaller rock to avoid a bigger one or scraping one propeller on the sand at the bottom to save the other, and so on, also, has a ton of experience saving sinking ships, but has little use for the laws of the sea--in fact has a piss-poor reputation for abiding?

I say take that guy and once the ship is turned around in the other direction, try to get the captain better at the laws of the sea.

Bigass ships don't turn on a dime. And the shoals don't care about laws of the sea.

Well, did you see that sign at the Alabama rally? Thank you, Lord Jesus For President Trump. Why do you keep doing this to me Michael? Aaaargh!

(batting eyes innocently and feigning surprise)

Moi?

My goodness, what did I ever do?

I thought you would enjoy the family values, Trump's coochicoo on the baby, the pretty lady in mind-blown awe of Trump, and everything...

:smile:

Michael

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Thanks, that cartoon of Trump eating a bald eagle was really funny. It is enjoyable hearing from Trump who is immune to the PC, victimization crowd. I bet Trump’s reelection staff is NOT WORRIED about a gaff no one will forgive him for, whereas everyone else’s reelection staffs are walking in bare feet on an icy sidewalk.

I watched some of Ted Cruz’s latest big three network interview and he handled the religious liberty question quite well, by bringing up the story of a couple that bought an old church, hired staff, then held weddings in it. Sho’nuff, two social justice warriors came knocking on the big, red door, wanting to have a gay marriage. They refused on religious grounds but were sued and settled the case for 5 grand which put them out of business anyway but they also agreed to hold no more weddings, so their business is gone, and jobs were lost. I bet Trump would say the church owners shouldn’t have to accommodate two “Puffs” if it goes against their religion.

Brant wrote about Trump: He is not a conservative. He is not a libertarian. He is an American. He is Greg.
end quote

Michael responded: He might be, but on the political side, he is surrounding himself with Mark Levin, Sarah Palin, and so on...
end quote

Who are the others? I like Mark Levin but he comes off on the radio and in interviews as SO intense as to seem kooky. He’s no Rush Limbaugh so the problem is not just being a talk show guy. Sarah is folksy and on the right side of most issues but is kind of light weight support (pick me for VP!) though her bra is not light weight. She has a nice figure. I liked that suggestively posed picture she put out showing her beautiful cleavage. I think it was here on OL.

If Trump wins in Iowa and New Hampshire he will pick up some indorsements, but will they be heavyweights?

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Trump-eats-eage-copy.jpg?resize=580%2C42

LOL.

Contrast with this revealing bit from the Rolling Stone article Donald Trump Just Stopped Being Funny by Matt Taibbi, which Michael commented on in post #917:

link

[bold emphasis added]

His signature moment in a campaign full of them was his exchange in the first debate with Fox's Kelly. She asked him how anyone with a history of calling women "fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals" could win a general election against a female candidate like Hillary Clinton.

[....]

On the surface, Kelly was just doing her job as a journalist, throwing Trump's most outrageous comments back at him and demanding an explanation.

But on another level, she was trying to bring Trump to heel. The extraction of the humiliating public apology is one of the media's most powerful weapons. Someone becomes famous, we dig up dirt on the person, we rub it in his or her nose, and then we demand that the person get down on bended knee and beg forgiveness.

The Clintons' 1992 joint interview on 60 Minutes was a classic example, as was Anthony Weiner's prostration before Andrew Breitbart and Chris Christie's 107-minute marathon apologia after Bridgegate. The subtext is always the same: If you want power in this country, you must accept the primacy of the press. It's like paying the cover at the door of the world's most exclusive club.

Trump wouldn't pay the tab. [....]

Ellen

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Michael responded: He might be, but on the political side, he is surrounding himself with Mark Levin, Sarah Palin, and so on...

end quote

Who are the others?

Peter,

Should Ted Cruz or Ben Carson drop out, Trump can easily count on their endorsement. Ann Coulter fell in love with Trump. I could go on, but it's too early for many formal endorsements.

Speculation-wise, look at those within the political sphere who publicly say good things about Trump as a Republican candidate. Then look at their politics. If you look closely, you will see constitutional conservative leaning libertarian running as a common thread connecting them all.

Those are the kind of people who will surround him once he is in office.

Michael

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Michael said: "Ann Coulter fell in love with Trump"

Before that, some several months or more back she was in love with Chris, I'll have another donut, Christie.

I remember her stating on either O'Reilly or Hannity's show, in essence, that he would be a strong candidate and had her support.

-J

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Joe,

It's worse with Ann. She was in love with Romney for the longest time.

:smile:

Still, she is wicked intelligent.

Michael

I agree, she is intelligent and probably an alpha male under the sheets.

-J

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I just finished reading The Art of the Deal.

I have no doubt Donald Trump will be an excellent president.

He knows how to get and keep top talent for gigantic projects, he oversees things in a hands-on manner, he brings projects in on time and under-budget, he knows how to handle the press, he has lots of experience navigating the labyrinth of government regulations and laws, he knows how to drive a hard bargain, and he keeps his word once he makes a deal.

No wonder this book was bestseller.

Michael

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