Penn State

[Brant Gaede]

The Penn State trustees did all they could to salvage the situation by immediately firing Paterno. It will take many years before that football program gets back off the ground, if ever. This is not the same as Ohio State firing Woody Hayes because he hit the helmeted head of an opposing player. College sports are a big business inhabited by the exploiters and the exploited and gross hypocrisy, but that's another story, except in this case the exploited will be leaving or not coming in droves.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

If the latest stories are true, Adam, it's worse than we could have imagined: Sandusky pimping boys to rich team donors. Penn might be kicked out of the NCAA on that. I wonder if they'll even be playing this weekend. Would Nebraska want to play this team? Can you imagine the guys in the booth trying to deal with this?

--Brant

[caroljane]

The Penn State trustees did all they could to salvage the situation by immediately firing Paterno. It will take many years before that football program gets back off the ground, if ever. This is not the same as Ohio State firing Woody Hayes because he hit the helmeted head of an opposing player. College sports are a big business inhabited by the exploiters and the exploited and gross hypocrisy, but that's another story, except in this case the exploited will be leaving or not coming in droves.

--Brant

You are so, so right. College should not be a place for a young athlete to train for a career in professional sports in any case (another story again) and as for the NCAA I can't put it better than Cam Cole: "The NCAA is a cancer and college football is its symptom."

Carol

from the land where the college coaches earn less than the philosophy professors.

[caroljane]

Can't Joe Pathetic, Mike McCoward etal be prosecuted federally? As "educators" they had a duty to tell outside authority. I wouldn't let those janitors off the hook either. The message needs to be sent. If being more afraid of going to jail than of losing your job is what it takes to make people do the right thing, so be it.

[caroljane]

Parenthetically a lot of our good young hockey players are weighing their options now, free college education in the US or straight to the farm team I hope this helps them make up their minds. If they don't make it to the NHL in a few years, they will still be young enough to go to school and get a real degree. I don't know of any outrages in any of the colleges where hockey is important (maybe there aren't any such colleges) but the NCAA should be weakened as much as possible, now that it's vulnerable.

[caroljane]

If the latest stories are true, Adam, it's worse than we could have imagined: Sandusky pimping boys to rich team donors. Penn might be kicked out of the NCAA on that. I wonder if they'll even be playing this weekend. Would Nebraska want to play this team? Can you imagine the guys in the booth trying to deal with this?

--Brant

They should forfeit the game and the whole season. That unfortunate team is now just a symbol of evil. Make the cut now, and start over next year.

[john42t]

Astonishing level of emotions about such a trivial topic.

I've come to accept that the vast majority is evil, but that doesn't seem to be the sentiment here.

Most people of my childhood were cheering the horrors behind the iron curtain. I'm way to cynical to get emotional about some petty criminals.

[caroljane]

Astonishing level of emotions about such a trivial topic.

I've come to accept that the vast majority is evil, but that doesn't seem to be the sentiment here.

Most people of my childhood were cheering the horrors behind the iron curtain. I'm way to cynical to get emotional about some petty criminals.

It's interesting that you find ethics trivial.

This thread, so far, is basically about the moral obligations of human beings to each other, and the crucial moments of failure in that obligation by individuals whose actions we know of. Shakespeare has dealt with such themes, as have Rand and others.

I'm not surprised you call yourself a cynic. You appear to know the value of nothing.

[john42t]

I'm not surprised you call yourself a cynic. You appear to know the value of nothing.

Which is the argument of all people who's values are rejected: That if I can't have your values, I can have none?

Of course you know the matter I called trivial isn't ethics but the story at hand. You chose to ignore that in order to deliver a cheap shot.

[caroljane]

I'm not surprised you call yourself a cynic. You appear to know the value of nothing.

Which is the argument of all people who's values are rejected: That if I can't have your values, I can have none?

Of course you know the matter I called trivial isn't ethics but the story at hand. You chose to ignore that in order to deliver a cheap shot.

At least my cheap shots can spell "too" and "whose".

[caroljane]

I'm not surprised you call yourself a cynic. You appear to know the value of nothing.

Which is the argument of all people who's values are rejected: That if I can't have your values, I can have none?

Of course you know the matter I called trivial isn't ethics but the story at hand. You chose to ignore that in order to deliver a cheap shot.

At least my cheap shots can spell "too" and "whose".

The story at hand is not trivial. sex crime sprees, child rape , criminal corporate cronyism and institutional despotism are not trivial.

[Selene]

Of course you know the matter I called trivial isn't ethics but the story at hand. You chose to ignore that in order to deliver a cheap shot.

John:

Am I understanding you correctly?

A minimum of twenty (20) minor children, some aged 10 and 11, being raped by a state employee, on state property over a period of years and these multiple violent felonies being covered up by high level state employees is trivial in your estimation?

Is that your position?

Adam

[caroljane]

Students are organizing a Wear Blue campaign to support the victims.

Others are organizing a Wear White campaign to support, guess who, Paterno.

Saturday should be a colourful day.

Anybody remember the Blue and Green riots between chariot-race supporters , and near-destruction of the Byzantine empire in the 6th century? Well, maybe not everybody is as old as I am. They had Justinian and Theodora to mop up that one, who does the NCAA have?

Cancel the damn game, you stupid, stupid idiots. Cut your damn losses. Anything won by either side will be bathed in the tears and blood of children forever. And I don't mean the children of all ages who would attend that game, although they are the ones who should shed them.

[Selene]

Carol:

I disagree with cancelling the game because it will harm the Nebraska team, as well as the young men who are playing for Penn State and had nothing to do with the events of 14 years ago.

I understand your rage, but it needs to be focused on the school administration and the individuals.

One suggestion that made sense that I heard proposed today was to change the venue of the rest of Penn State's schedule from home to away games.

This probably cannot be done for this Saturday's game, but the rest of the schedule should all be away games.

Adam

trying to be rational about this horror

[Brant Gaede]

This unexpected twist from Germany makes one wonder about European mores.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Carol:

I disagree with cancelling the game because it will harm the Nebraska team, as well as the young men who are playing for Penn State and had nothing to do with the events of 14 years ago.

I understand your rage, but it needs to be focused on the school administration and the individuals.

One suggestion that made sense that I heard proposed today was to change the venue of the rest of Penn State's schedule from home to away games.

This probably cannot be done for this Saturday's game, but the rest of the schedule should all be away games.

Adam

trying to be rational about this horror

Adam,

I think you misunderstand me a little. Of course it would harm the Nebraska players, and the Penn ones, and they are innocent. But they are collateral damage already. For Nebraska to win would be defeating the pedophiles. For Penn to win would be the triumph of the enablers. That is what the symbolism is, as of this week. Why subject the players to that? Why encourage crowds to roar about that? I think cancellation is the rational choice.

[Brant Gaede]

You can't even make an omelet out of this mess of broken eggs.

--Brant

[caroljane]

You can't even make an omelet out of this mess of broken eggs.

--Brant

Exactly, you throw it out and scour the pan as best you can.

[Jonathan]

When I heard of Paterno's firing, I thought the next logical step would be canceling the game, but with the rioting last night, I think they'll allow the game to be played out of fear of a larger riot.

J

[caroljane]

When I heard of Paterno's firing, I thought the next logical step would be canceling the game, but with the rioting last night, I think they'll allow the game to be played out of fear of a larger riot.

J

How so? At a cancelled game the Nebraska supporters would not be there, lessening the numbers. And the rational Penn students, if there are any, would not be there. There would be a riot but not larger.

[Brant Gaede]

When I heard of Paterno's firing, I thought the next logical step would be canceling the game, but with the rioting last night, I think they'll allow the game to be played out of fear of a larger riot.

J

How so? At a cancelled game the Nebraska supporters would not be there, lessening the numbers. And the rational Penn students, if there are any, would not be there. There would be a riot but not larger.

Careful there; you've gone a little too far abroad, broad. You can't know if there would be a "riot" or how large. So you simply send in the National Guard, just in case--ask to borrow Ohio's if you have to--with live ammo. The best way would be to use concussion grenades, not bullets. (Tear gas is too humane for these sons of Cain.) Bullets are only superior in these cases if fired from machine guns. That would result in significantly smaller class sizes or, as Ayn Rand would say, "gravy."

--Brant

[Selene]

Brant:

Hmmm, now there is a creative solution to the high cost of education.

We could make the parents pay off the student loans under penalty of a public trial!

Excellent solution.

Adam

this could make Kent State look like a picnic!

[john42t]

A minimum of twenty (20) minor children, some aged 10 and 11, being raped by a state employee, on state property over a period of years and these multiple violent felonies being covered up by high level state employees is trivial in your estimation?

Is that your position?

If I extrapolate my own experiences with public schooling, though harmless in comparison, but take into account that things are probably worse today and that the American situation will be worse than that of Germany, I would expect rapings in public institutions, especially schools, to be fairly frequent. You have consider that in most incidents perpetrators will be other youths.

So yes, I consider stories about sexual violence in public institutions as trivial as stories about major setbacks in the middle east peace process.

Compared to the institutionalized crippling of the young in public schooling in general (ideologically and by the nature of being kept in dependence) the fact that some of those vicitms *also* have something shoved up their orifices is as trivial as shrapnels in WWII.

You are telling me your excitement comes from the wish to *protect*? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I've heard it so often in my own youth and it was a lie. It's only the usual con-game of playing who appears to care most. Just look at the intellectual level I'm attacked on in this thread: Spelling mistakes, bad mores in Europe, that's all that comes. You could as well care about the environment, the oppression of women, free software or some other do-gooder crap of your choice. But children are the more potent weapon I suppose.

[Selene]

John:

Interesting.

First, there is a high degree of on this forum, so I would suggest to put on your intellectual chastity belt, or not be overly sensitive to written "probes" with words.

Secondly, you raised an interesting argument which I was aware could be a refutation point as I was asserting my argument for protecting children.

It raises a slippery slope argument and tons of gray areas for the state to intrude in our lives.

So yes, I consider stories about sexual violence in public institutions as trivial as stories about major setbacks in the middle east peace process.

Amusing comparison.

I understand that the "protecting the children" card can easily be abused by the society and the state.

Therefore, since I am willing to take responsibility for my own choices, I was genuinely appalled by this adult's abuse of children.

My inquiry to you was whether I was stating your position properly.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

A minimum of twenty (20) minor children, some aged 10 and 11, being raped by a state employee, on state property over a period of years and these multiple violent felonies being covered up by high level state employees is trivial in your estimation?

Is that your position?

If I extrapolate my own experiences with public schooling, though harmless in comparison, but take into account that things are probably worse today and that the American situation will be worse than that of Germany, I would expect rapings in public institutions, especially schools, to be fairly frequent. You have consider that in most incidents perpetrators will be other youths.

So yes, I consider stories about sexual violence in public institutions as trivial as stories about major setbacks in the middle east peace process.

Compared to the institutionalized crippling of the young in public schooling in general (ideologically and by the nature of being kept in dependence) the fact that some of those vicitms *also* have something shoved up their orifices is as trivial as shrapnels in WWII.

You are telling me your excitement comes from the wish to *protect*? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I've heard it so often in my own youth and it was a lie. It's only the usual con-game of playing who appears to care most. Just look at the intellectual level I'm attacked on in this thread: Spelling mistakes, bad mores in Europe, that's all that comes. You could as well care about the environment, the oppression of women, free software or some other do-gooder crap of your choice. But children are the more potent weapon I suppose.

Wondering about European mores was not necessarily to disparage them. You make it sound like boys raping boys in German public schools is commonplace, begging the question if it's rape at all. If a 15 yo boy has sex with a 14 yo girl is it rape? With a boy? Depends. You're quite right about "institutionalized crippling of the young in public schooling" but seemingly oblivious to the sheer psychological trauma of rape. Then there is rape and statuatory rape. All things being equal the former is worse than the latter, but you never know how victim A will process what happened compared to victim B.

I really don't appreciate your jumping into the middle of this thread with your trivial and inane comments then getting all disingenuous about the disappointing level of intellectual discourse while in attack mode.

--Brant