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JR:

Of course it is sad that innocent Iraq's were killed.

Adam

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress’s profile.

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress's profile.

ND:

Makes sense to me. Great marketing tool. You know my definition of a cynic ...

a humanist with experience.

Sad part is that the crazies will whip up "the faithful" and innocent folks will die.

Look at what is happening in Northern Nigeria which is Muslim. The Christian, Goodluck Jonathan won the Presidential election and "rioting" broke

against Christians in two (2) cities/towns in the Muslim North.

Riots break out in north as Jonathan wins by landslide

And the beat goes on...

Adam

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress's profile.

One big difference. There would not be a Fatwah declared on a Christian by Christians.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Years ago the poster and related publicity material for Funny Girl showed a kiss between Streisand and Sharif (who was Egyptian). This set off a firestorm of denuncations throught the Islamic world. When asked for her reaction, his costar replied "You thought Nasser was mad. You should have seen the letter I got from my aunt Rose."

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress's profile.

One big difference. There would not be a Fatwah declared on a Christian by Christians.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You obviously have no understanding of Christians that are in the Middle East then do you? You don't think they partake in honor killings too?

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress's profile.

One big difference. There would not be a Fatwah declared on a Christian by Christians.

Ba'al Chatzaf

There’s never been a Christian abortion doctor murdered by a Christian protester? I honestly don’t know, but I bet there has.

This might be a good place for Xray to weigh in (perish the thought!). I’ve spent some good vacation time in Germany but she lives there. I particularly remember being in Cologne when Turkey won a major soccer game, and it was pandemonium on the streets all night long. There’s a lot of Turks there and best I know they’re well assimilated, law abiding, and there aren’t major problems. Their restaurants are the best places to get fast food, that's really the only interaction I had with them.

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress's profile.

One big difference. There would not be a Fatwah declared on a Christian by Christians.

Ba'al Chatzaf

There’s never been a Christian abortion doctor murdered by a Christian protester? I honestly don’t know, but I bet there has.

This might be a good place for Xray to weigh in (perish the thought!). I’ve spent some good vacation time in Germany but she lives there. I particularly remember being in Cologne when Turkey won a major soccer game, and it was pandemonium on the streets all night long. There’s a lot of Turks there and best I know they’re well assimilated, law abiding, and there aren’t major problems. Their restaurants are the best places to get fast food, that's really the only interaction I had with them.

Did you (or Angela) read John Le Carre's latest novel which is set in the Turkish community in Germany? I can't remember the name.His absolute sense of place with Berlin, at least, has always impressed me in his books. And his agony over ethics.

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Is this really so different from some conservative Christian turned stripper being denounced by her mother? The voice of my inner cynic is suggesting that this is all staged to boost magazine sales and to raise this actress’s profile.

So what if it is? That's the nature of the game. Business is business.

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There's never been a Christian abortion doctor murdered by a Christian protester? I honestly don't know, but I bet there has.

A very rare occurrence which is overwhelmingly denounced by main-line Christians. Such acts are individual acts and not an implementation of Christian doctrine either in theory or practice. Christianity gave up burning heretics hundreds of years ago. It is not longer done.

The abortion clinic bombers are routinely denounced as madmen and thugs, even by Christians who oppose abortion.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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There's never been a Christian abortion doctor murdered by a Christian protester? I honestly don't know, but I bet there has.

A very rare occurrence which is overwhelmingly denounced by main-line Christians. Such acts are individual acts and not an implementation of Christian doctrine either in theory or practice. Christianity gave up burning heretics hundreds of years ago. It is not longer done.

The abortion clinic bombers are routinely denounced as madmen and thugs, even by Christians who oppose abortion.

Ba'al Chatzaf

And people who commit honor killings are routinely denounced as madmen and thugs by Muslims, even those that don't want their daughters to be porn stars.

Again, you didn't address my point. Are you under the impression that the Christian community in that region don't also have a problem with honor killings?

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Again, you didn't address my point. Are you under the impression that the Christian community in that region don't also have a problem with honor killings?

Which would imply - if true - a problem with the culture and tradition, not the religion(s)?

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LM:

There appears to be a paucity of honor killings by Christians in the middle east per capita, but I want to see what you know before I continue.

Adam

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The abortion clinic bombers are routinely denounced as madmen and thugs, even by Christians who oppose abortion.

And there are a few quotable kooks who approve. Do I need to find a clip? I’m pretty sure the documentary Lake of Fire gave them their due, and if you haven’t seen it, it’s quite good.

Again, you didn't address my point. Are you under the impression that the Christian community in that region don't also have a problem with honor killings?

Which would imply - if true - a problem with the culture and tradition, not the religion(s)?

This makes me think of the honor killings in Shakespeare, the best example is probably Othello and Desdemona, though one could argue that Othello is a “moor”, still there’s no suggestion that he is Muslim (not that I can think of, it’s been a while). There’s a similar story in Much Ado about Nothing, where the expectation is that Hero’s father will kill her after Claudio denounces her. These examples suggest honor killings are not a Muslim-specific practice.

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Wiki Honor Killing

Matthew Goldstein has noted that honor killings were encouraged in ancient Rome, where male family members who did not take actions against the female adulterers in their family were "actively persecuted".[4]

Map with color code of honor killing world wide

crimes-d-honneur.gif

Source : PopulationData.net

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And people who commit honor killings are routinely denounced as madmen and thugs by Muslims, even those that don't want their daughters to be porn stars.

Again, you didn't address my point. Are you under the impression that the Christian community in that region don't also have a problem with honor killings?

LM,

Like most readers of this forum, I'm not terribly familiar with the customs—or with the social pathologies—prevalent among Maronites in Lebanon, Copts in Egypt, Assyrians in Iraq, or Palestinian Christians.

If you are, then provide some statistics on honor killings in those communities.

And what percentage of practicing Muslims in Jordan publicly denounce honor killings when they hear of them? In Pakistan?

Again, if you know, please tell us.

And if you don't know, please have the grace to admit that you don't.

Robert Campbell

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Which would imply - if true - a problem with the culture and tradition, not the religion(s)?

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, honor killings occur in other places too, except when committed in the West by non Muslims they are called 'Crimes of Passion'. Both are disgusting practices and there needs to be more education and enforcement in the world. The perpetrators should be punished in an incredibly severe way so as to act as a deterrent where education doesn't work. It is not an Islamic practice and didn't begin with the Arabs either.

LM,

Like most readers of this forum, I'm not terribly familiar with the customs—or with the social pathologies—prevalent among Maronites in Lebanon, Copts in Egypt, Assyrians in Iraq, or Palestinian Christians.

If you are, then provide some statistics on honor killings in those communities.

And what percentage of practicing Muslims in Jordan publicly denounce honor killings when they hear of them? In Pakistan?

Again, if you know, please tell us.

And if you don't know, please have the grace to admit that you don't.

Robert Campbell

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any reliable statistics on honor killing and who supports it. It's usually done within the family and is often made to look like an accident or swept under the rug. The families that it occurs in usually all keep their mouths shut whether they approved of the killing or not.

These practices, as mentioned earlier were in place long before Islam spread throughout the Middle East and do occur amongst other religious groups too. These are tribal practices and not the fault of Islam.

If some Muslims support it then that is disgusting, but is not a reflection on Islam. Islam doesn't allow for such behavior.

Below are some articles I've found online by simply google searching Christian Honor Killings and some other terms.

Murdered in name of family honour

Chris McGreal in Ramallah reports on a rise in killings of Palestinian women

* The Guardian, Thursday 23 June 2005 00.01 BST

* Article history

Faten Habash's father wept as he assured his daughter there would be no more beatings, no more threats to her life and that she was free to marry the man she loved, even if he was a Muslim. All he asked was that Faten return home.

Hassan Habash even gave his word to an emissary from a Bedouin tribe traditionally brought in to mediate in matters of family honour, a commitment regarded as sacrosanct in Palestinian society. But the next weekend, as Faten watched a Boy Scouts parade from the balcony of her Ramallah home, the 22-year-old Christian Palestinian was dragged into the living room and bludgeoned to death with an iron bar. Her father was arrested for the murder.

"He gave me his word she would not be harmed," said Ibrahim Abu Dahouq, the Bedouin mediator. "He was crying and begging her to come home. They were even telling me that for their daughter to leave their house as a bride would be an honour for them. We never believed that love would lead to death in this ugly way."

Two days later, another ritual of killing unfolded a few miles away in Jerusalem.

Maher Shakirat summoned three of his sisters to discuss a family uproar after one of them, Rudaina, was thrown out by her husband for an alleged affair. Maher listened to Rudaina's denials, and her sisters' pleas that they were not covering up the affair. Then he forced the three women to drink bleach before strangling Rudaina, who was eight months pregnant. The other sisters tried to flee but Maher caught and strangled Amani, 20. The third, Leila, escaped but was badly injured by the bleach.

Maher, a bus driver in his 30s, is in hiding but his parents were arrested for allegedly ordering the murders and his wife was detained as an accomplice. As he was taken into custody, Rudaina's father, Amin, was asked why his daughters were killed. "Because they dishonoured the family," he said. "A married woman who goes with another man isn't good."

The murders of Faten Habash and the Shakirat sisters last month were the latest in a series of brutal "honour killings" that have shaken the Palestinian community over recent weeks. The deaths have prompted demands for a change to laws inherited from the days of Jordanian rule that deem all women to be "minors" under the authority of male relatives and that provide a maximum of six months in prison for killings in defence of "family honour."

But those calls have met with resistance in parliament where religious Palestinian MPs argue that reform will lead to a collapse in the moral fabric of society. According to the Palestinian women's affairs ministry, 20 girls and women were murdered in honour killings last year and about 50 committed suicide - often under coercion - for "shaming" the family through sex outside marriage, refusing an arranged marriage or seeking a divorce. Another 15 women survived attempts to kill them.

The ministry says that dozens of other killings are covered up each year. "We had one woman of 26 who was certified as dying of old age," said Maha Abu Dayyeh Shamas, director of the Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling. "Putting 'falling into well' on the death certificate is very common. We find that the women were strangled and then dumped in the well."

Faten Habash's murder was unusual because she came from the Christian minority in the Palestinian territories. Her desire to marry a young Muslim, Samer Hamis, so infuriated her family that the couple decided to elope to Jordan.

Faten's father enlisted the family priest to stop his daughter on the grounds that, even though she was 22, all women are legally regarded as minors under the authority of their male relatives. The Palestinian authorities returned Faten to her home where she was beaten and her pelvis broken as she was either thrown from a window or jumped trying to escape. She spent six weeks in hospital. She sought protection under an ancient Bedouin formula for resolving disputes, known as Tanebeh. Abu Dahouq, a lawyer for the Dawakuk tribe, negotiated with the Habash family.

Mr Dahouq said: "Faten believed she had received a guarantee of security." Two days later she was murdered. "This family had no honour, no manners, no ethics," he said. "And the girl was as honourable as could be. All she wanted to do was marry this man she loved. I think the people in her church also have responsibility for this killing. They told this family that their daughter brought shame, so that makes them part of the crime."

The family priest, Father Ibrahim Hijazin, declined to talk about Faten's killing other than to say he called the Palestinian authorities to prevent her from reaching Jordan. But he says other families would have reacted as hers did. "There is no interfaith marriage among Arabs. Catholics here are Christian by faith and Muslim by culture, and in this community it is forbidden for Christians to marry Muslims. It's not good. It's a tribal mentality. I don't accept it, but it is the culture," he said.

After Faten's murder, several hundred Palestinian women held a vigil in Ramallah to demand an end to honour killings.

The Palestinian women's affairs minister, Zuhaira Kamal, called for a change to the law to allow women over 18 to marry without the consent of a male relative and reform of the old Jordanian legislation that frees the killers after a few months. But MPs have resisted the move.

"They're very traditional there," said Mrs Abu Dayyeh Shamas. "They say these are our traditions, that a man who is in a moment of anger is driven to do these things. It gives a message to the community that you can kill without punishment. We have a lot of complaints from women that their husbands are having affairs. We ask these MPs if they think these women should be allowed to kill their husbands. They can't answer that question."

Although honour killings have a long history in Palestinian society, women's rights groups say the rise in these murders cannot be separated from the resurgent violence of the past four years of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "Things are breaking down because of the changing relationship between men and women. Increased numbers of women are the main source of income while her husband sits around. That is the kiss of death for that family," said Mrs Abu Dayyeh Shamas.

"Men feel they have lost their dignity and that they can somehow restore it by upholding the family's honour. We've noticed recent cases are much more violent in nature; attempts to kill, rape, incest. There is an incredible amount of incest."

Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud murdered her daughter, Rafayda, because she became pregnant after being raped by two of her brothers.

"My daughter fell over and broke her knee. I took her to hospital and there the doctor told me she was pregnant. So I killed her. It's as simple as that," said Mrs Qaoud on her doorstep in Ramallah. Mrs Qaoud waited until the baby was born and given up for adoption. Then she presented her 22 year-old daughter with a razor blade and told her to slash her wrists.

She refused so her mother pulled a plastic bag over her head, sliced her wrists and beat her head with a stick. The brothers were sentenced to 10 years for the rape. Mrs Qaoud spent two years in prison for killing her daughter. She has purged her home of all pictures of her older children, and declines to discuss the killing, saying all she wants is to forget about it.

The repercussions of Faten Habash's murder are still being felt; the man she loved is in protective custody after threats from the Habash family.

The Bedouin mediator says the Habashes have dishonoured his tribe by breaching the pledge that Faten would not be harmed. "The crime is not against the girl, the crime is against our family," said Mr Abu Dahouq. "Since they have broken their word, we have the right to retaliate. There will be a reaction for betraying their religion and betraying us."

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/23/israel

Funeral of Muslim murdered by Christian in-law held under heavy security

By Abdel-Rahman Hussein

First Published 10/9/2008

CAIRO: Hundreds lined up for the funeral of a Muslim man killed by his Christian brother-in-law, which was held amid tight security Wednesday night.

Security forces shut off the street from both ends and ordered the closure of all the shops lining the funeral’s pathway.

Ahmed Saleh was killed by his wife’s brother Rami Atef Khella, 28, who was angered by his sister’s conversion to Islam three years earlier. Khella also shot his sister, Miriam, 25, and the couple’s 18-month daughter, Nora, who are in critical condition in the hospital.

The shooting occurred in the suburb of Al-Ameriya Tuesday when Khella cut the electricity of Ibrahim Abdulrahman street causing a blackout before descending on the couple’s apartment and opening fire on the family.

Khella was arrested in the early hours of Wednesday morning and confessed to the killing. He stated that his father and uncle did not participate in the actual crime, but it was his uncle, Raafat Khella, who drove him away from the scene after waiting for him in a car at the end of the road.

The accused told police that he had purchased the gun used in the crime after failing to convince his sister to divorce Saleh.

AFP had reported that “Khella had been searching for his sister for about two years, after she left her home province with her Muslim husband and came to Cairo.”

Saleh's father told Al-Dostour newspaper, "I want justice for my son because he did nothing wrong. All he was guilty of was marrying the woman he loved."

He added that after his son married Miriam her family threatened to kill them which caused him to report the affair to the state security apparatus, which made Miriam's family sign an affidavit to not come near her or her husband.

"I am waiting for the government’s response," he said, "and if it does not give us our rights then it wants people to kill each other. The execution of the killer and his uncle is the only justice [i will accept]."

The defendant and his uncle have been detained for four days pending further investigations.

Sectarian tensions between Muslims and Christians have again come to the forefront recently and a Christian was shot dead in Southern Egypt last week after Muslim-Christian clashes which were sparked by accusations of a Muslim flirting with a Coptic girl and a Copt attempting to sell his house within an neighborhood dominated by Copts to a Muslim.

Source:http://dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=16978

Honor killings not a 'Muslim' problem as many claim

by Hanania, Ray

Comments

If you relied on the Islam-bashers like Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, Brigitte Gabriel and others, you would believe the practice of "honor killings" is typically a Muslim and "Arab" problem.

But of course, the truth lies well beyond that simplistic and racially motivated claim.

"Honor killings" are not only committed by Muslims and Arabs, but also by Jews and Christians, too.

It is a gender-driven crime that occurs in many Third World nations and particularly in countries where poverty-stricken families cling to male-dominated cultural traditions.

An act of violence that is almost always fatal, the victim is always female, the victim of a male usually either a member of the victim's family, a relative or even a family friend.

The purpose or "justification" for the killing is to redress a dishonor that has been brought upon a family such as one involving women accused of infidelity, premarital sex, and more often than not, rumors that regardless of veracity have so embarrassed a family that even women not guilty of the allegations are none-the-less victimized.

The crime becomes even more pernicious because the societies in which these crimes occur often condone the crimes, usually by minimizing the punishment of the killers. In many cases, the killers serve only a few months in prison.

Tragically, those convicted of theft or corruption or even making slanderous statements against the governments or the religion, are punished far more severely, some being executed.

Recently, an alleged "honor killing" occurred in Damascus, Syria, involving a 16-year-old girl who died at the hospital in January after she was brutally attacked by her brother. Prosecutors charged the killing was a premeditated act organized by her family who suspected her of having an affair out of wedlock, dishonoring the family.

Zahra, according to reports, allegedly fled her family with another man who told her that her father was having an extra-marital affair. To protect her father, the daughter agreed to leave with the man.

If convicted under Syria's "honor killing" law, the brother would only be forced to serve three months, although a prominent Syrian sheik has denounced the possibility and the crime as "un-Islamic."

A similar killing may have occurred more than 9,000 miles away in the United States, in the city of Chicago, just this past week.

There, an Assyrian Christian immigrant from Iran, Daryoush Ebrahimi, was charged this week with murdering his wife, his wife's sister and his mother-in-law, after they allegedly criticized him and questioned his manliness.

Ebrahimi was denied bond in a Chicago court Monday. He reportedly told police he killed his wife, sister-in-law and mother-in-law because "they disrespected" him. Disrespect is a major motivation behind "honor killings."

Ironically, the Ebrahimi family came to the United States in November seeking asylum from Iran. They claimed they feared persecution in Iran because they are Christians. The family was granted asylum because of the anti-Iranian hysteria whipped up by President Bush and other Islamophobes.

Typical of male killers of women, Ebrahimi said he wanted to kill himself. He was reportedly found after the slayings by police "hitting himself" with a hammer. Despite much bleeding, Ebrahimi was treated and released from a hospital the same day.

Police said his wife, Karmin Khooshabeh, 44, and her stepsister, Karolin Khooshabeh, 40, had been bludgeoned to death and stabbed repeatedly with a 16 inch knife. They died at the scene. Ebrahimi then walked to the home of his 60-year-old mother-in-law and killed her.

There are approximately 100,000 Assyrians living in Chicago. Assyrians are often mistaken for "Arabs" because many speak both Arabic and Aramaic. They are a Christian minority group living primarily in Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria. Ebrahimi speaks Farsi, the language of Iran.

The family lived in an apartment in Rogers Park, a north side neighborhood of Chicago and attended the Assyrian Church of the East, St. George Parish. A priest at the church told a local television station that the alleged killer and his now deceased wife attended a baptism at the church only a week before.

Under American laws, the perpetrators of "honor killings" are not given special protections and Ebrahimi could face the death penalty unless a jury finds that he was "insane" at the time of the murder.

While a convicted "honor killing" perpetrator in another country could be released after only three to six months imprisonment, it is very likely that if convicted in the Chicago slayings, Ebrahimi will spend years behind bars, if not given a death sentence.

"Honor killings" are a problem in the Arab and Muslim World, but they are also a problem in many other countries, too.

Rather than using these tragedies to advance political agendas, the focus should be on the criminal act rather than on the race, ethnicity or religion of the perpetrators and the victims.

By Ray Hanania

The Arab American News

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/arab-american-news-the/mi_8078/is_20070303/honor-killings-muslim-problem-claim/ai_n50653511/

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whYNOT, on 22 April 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

Which would imply - if true - a problem with the culture and tradition, not the religion(s)?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Culture is shaped by ideas, and religion is an extremely powerful set of ideas that can't help but shape the culture. Given the diminishing of women within Islam, it's not surprising that woman are often treated very poorly within Islamic culture. Blaming it on tribalism doesn't cut it. Tribalism is most definitely destructive, but if Islam is a force for good it would have lifted the Islamic world out of it's tribalist mindset long ago. It hasn't done so. In fact, when people in Islamic countries defend their appalling crimes against women, it is often the religion of Islam that they refer to to justify it.

Here is just one example of that, from Bangladesh:

http://www.weeklyblitz.net/1386/islamist-leader-threatens-of-waging-jihad

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Berlin: Fanatics Fury at Muslim Playgirl here:

"A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: 'I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture.' "

Charming.

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Berlin: Fanatics Fury at Muslim Playgirl here:

"A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: 'I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture.' "

Charming.

If he’d said he would just give her a talking to, would they have quoted him?

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Berlin: Fanatics Fury at Muslim Playgirl here:

"A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: 'I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn't fit with my culture.' "

Charming.

If he'd said he would just give her a talking to, would they have quoted him?

Of course not. This element does exist. Heck, this weekend in Queens County, NYC, the Sikh's had an internecine "battle" inside one of their temples with ceremonial swords! 59 seconds of shaky raw video

Huffington Post article here.

"Temple president Jamail Singh told the Daily News that the fight was instigated by a dissident group of followers who are opposed to opening up membership.

The dispute is at the center of a lawsuit in state Supreme Court."

It is this violent element in religion that I was referring to.

Adam

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