Great Literature

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jeff,

I actually share your irritation at the preachy broad condemnatory oversimplifications of the masterworks in mankind's magnificent and ongoing legacy that are found in many Objectivist-oriented comments. Sometimes I do not perceive some of these comments as you do and sometimes I do. But in all cases, I do believe that oversimplifications should be identified as such and, hopefully, discussed intelligently.

Also, I greatly enjoy your erudite comments. You never speak from ignorance from what I have read. I especially enjoy your pugnacity (very often very clever and hilarious pugnacity) in the face of what I perceive that you perceive to be empty pompousness.

Now for the sour note in the symphony. I do not find "Take it and stick it up your ass" clever, enjoyable, or up to your usual snuff. In addition to not being in the spirit of what I am cultivating around here, you deprive the rest of us readers of your stinging wit...

You're good, dude. Damn good. I mean it.

Don't forget that people not involved with the discussion read what you write.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Phil,

If you really want to start a blog, I suggest Blogger since it is the easiest, although there is a small (but not hard) learning curve on the settings.

Or, if you like, you can get an OL blog. Kat messes with this part more than I do, but I could see what I could do to allow you to moderate comments on your blog.

I believe that having your own space will even make your forum participation a richer experience for you.

Shoot me a note if you are interested in an OL blog or need some advice on Blogger, or other free options I know about.

Michael

[anonrobt]

Phil,

If you really want to start a blog, I suggest Blogger since it is the easiest, although there is a small (but not hard) learning curve on the settings.

Or, if you like, you can get an OL blog. Kat messes with this part more than I do, but I could see what I could do to allow you to moderate comments on your blog.

I believe that having your own space will even make your forum participation a richer experience for you.

Shoot me a note if you are interested in an OL blog or need some advice on Blogger, or other free options I know about.

Michael

Blogger is nice - have three of them to keep me going - my original, www.visioneerwindows.blogspot.com , its 'sister', www.thespiritualvisualizer.blogspot.com , and the new one, www.societyofpeninkartists.blogspot.com , which is the International Society of Pen and Ink Artists, an attempt to elevating pen and ink rendering to fine art level.... the blogging is easy to set-up, with many templates and colors and font styles, etc. to work with...

Edited September 5, 2009 by anonrobt

[Philip Coates]

<>Not bad, Jeffrey! You have a poet in your soul.

<>Thanks, Michael, for your kind offer to give me some advice about Blogger/blogging. I know this is an area where you have a lot of knowledge. I will take you up on that when I seem about ready to do something.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Philip Coates

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Literary Analysis - How to Compare Two Translations

Even an ordinary translation can't completely diminish the force, the power of Homer's opening lines-->

"Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus

and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the

Achaians,

hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls

of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting

of dogs, or all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished

since that time when first there stood in division of conflict

Atreus' son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus." [Richard Lattimore, University of Chicago Press, 1951]

It's quite powerful, if you understand what is being talked about. Because Homer himself is dramatic. But compare it to this --->

"Anger now be your song, immortal one,

Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous,

that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss,

and crowded brave souls into the undergloom,

leaving so many dead men--carrion

for dogs and birds; and the will of Zeus was done.

Begin it when the two men first contending

broke with one another---

the Lord Marshal

Agamemnon, Atreus' son, and Prince Akhilleus." [Robert Fitzgerald, Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1974]

Read the latter *aloud* and *slowly* to get the full rhythmic, poetic effect. (Trust me on this one, please. Take the 30 seconds.) Homer was meant to be read around campfires nearly 3000 years ago.)

1) What stands out is the vivid language in the latter: doomed and ruinous..loss on bitter loss..brave souls. Notice first the more abstract and more bloodless language of the former (the Greeks of the Mycenaean age were fierce, direct speaking, tellijng vivid and bloody stories around the campfire - not distant from the battle (or too wordy) like some academic. "Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous, that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss" -or- "the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians" ? "Pains thousandfold" what the fuck does that mean? Who talks like that? "To be the delicate feasting of dogs and birds" - what's delicate about having your body eaten by animals? Homer wants to be forceful and vivid, to describe the horrors of war. Much more shocking and effective to say, "leaving so many dead men--carrion for dogs and birds". And more poignant. 'Carrion' is perhaps the best word in the English that I can think of here, by the way.

2) Which is better and clearer English, "first there stood in division of conflict" or "the two men first contending broke with one another"? Do you even grasp what the clumsy and passive, not active first phrase means instantly, or do you have to read it again?

3) Notice too the shorter lines of Fitzgerald. This is a very long poem, after all. And Lattimore -- with his longer, more stilted, slightly more academic or les passionate and vivid translation -- is going to tire you after hundreds of pages.

4) Also, Lattimore crams too many thoughts in just one awkward, run-on sentence. Fitzgerald (English 101 - put separate thoughts into separate sentences) breaks them into two sentences.

5) Abstractness: 'devastation' is too abstract, too general as an introductory term for the horrors of dead men in war. What kind of 'devastation'? A loved one who dumps you can be devastation. You woulnd't say the men who died in the trenches in WWI suffered "devastation". You would say they were gassed, machine gunned, their limbs fell off from gangrene. And Lattimore implies but does not specifically say "dead men" as Fitgerald does.

6) Note also how L awkwardly breaks a phrase in the middle between two lines (strong souls/of heroes, feasting/of dogs).

7) The only point where I somewhat prefer the Lattimore is "strong souls of heroes" vs. "brave souls". But I can see F's reasons: characteristically longer phrases are going to get tiring if repeated over hundreds of pages.

,,,,,,,,

The above is just a sample. I compared much more than just the openings in Richard Lattimore and Robert Fitzgerald (and other translators). I compared many passages, and when I turned at random to a page, or when I found a passage of Fitzgerald that moved me deeply, I looked it up elsewhere and (only in the case of Fagels, sometimes, but not always) was the passage so vivid or effective or moving. [Lattimore and Butler and Chapman and many other translators of either Iliad or Odyssey or both are not (well, not all of them)-bad- translators of Homer. It's just that Fitzgerald is superb.]

Here is how one reviewer put it: "Mr. Fitzgerald has solved virtually every problem that has plagued translators of Homer. The narrative runs, the dialogue speaks, the military action is clear, and the repetitive epithets become useful text rather than exotic relics."

Edited September 5, 2009 by Philip Coates

[Philip Coates]

Michael, do you think we could break the last x number of posts onto their own thread on, say, "Great Books and Literature"?

I feel like this subtopic is relatively ignored compared, say, to the one thousand posts on the x-ray/gender thread. Perhaps either (i) because of lack of literary interest or knowledge among most...or (ii) because it's labeled under "Terry Goodkind" as a thread title.

..And I spent an hour and a half digging out, transcribing, analyzing the two translations of Homer. And I greatly fear my time being wasted - or responded to somewhat monosyllabically - in part because the topic is hidden.

The whole issue of how to recognize, find, compare, analyze, respond to great literature is an *enormously important* one for Objectivists. As opposed to repetitive GWFF (Gender War Food Fights).

Edited September 5, 2009 by Philip Coates

[jeffrey smith]

Subject: Literary Analysis - How to Compare Two Translations

Even an ordinary translation can't completely diminish the force, the power of Homer's opening lines-->

"Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus

and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the

Achaians,

hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls

of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting

of dogs, or all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished

since that time when first there stood in division of conflict

Atreus' son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus." [Richard Lattimore, University of Chicago Press, 1951]

It's quite powerful, if you understand what is being talked about. Because Homer himself is dramatic. But compare it to this --->

"Anger now be your song, immortal one,

Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous,

that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss,

and crowded brave souls into the undergloom,

leaving so many dead men--carrion

for dogs and birds; and the will of Zeus was done.

Begin it when the two men first contending

broke with one another---

the Lord Marshal

Agamemnon, Atreus' son, and Prince Akhilleus." [Robert Fitzgerald, Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1974]

Read the latter *aloud* and *slowly* to get the full rhythmic, poetic effect. (Trust me on this one, please. Take the 30 seconds.) Homer was meant to be read around campfires nearly 3000 years ago.)

1) What stands out is the vivid language in the latter: doomed and ruinous..loss on bitter loss..brave souls. Notice first the more abstract and more bloodless language of the former (the Greeks of the Mycenaean age were fierce, direct speaking, tellijng vivid and bloody stories around the campfire - not distant from the battle (or too wordy) like some academic. "Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous, that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss" -or- "the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians" ? "Pains thousandfold" what the fuck does that mean? Who talks like that? "To be the delicate feasting of dogs and birds" - what's delicate about having your body eaten by animals? Homer wants to be forceful and vivid, to describe the horrors of war. Much more shocking and effective to say, "leaving so many dead men--carrion for dogs and birds". And more poignant. 'Carrion' is perhaps the best word in the English that I can think of here, by the way.

2) Which is better and clearer English, "first there stood in division of conflict" or "the two men first contending broke with one another"? Do you even grasp what the clumsy and passive, not active first phrase means instantly, or do you have to read it again?

3) Notice too the shorter lines of Fitzgerald. This is a very long poem, after all. And Lattimore -- with his longer, more stilted, slightly more academic or les passionate and vivid translation -- is going to tire you after hundreds of pages.

4) Also, Lattimore crams too many thoughts in just one awkward, run-on sentence. Fitzgerald (English 101 - put separate thoughts into separate sentences) breaks them into two sentences.

5) Abstractness: 'devastation' is too abstract, too general as an introductory term for the horrors of dead men in war. What kind of 'devastation'? A loved one who dumps you can be devastation. You woulnd't say the men who died in the trenches in WWI suffered "devastation". You would say they were gassed, machine gunned, their limbs fell off from gangrene. And Lattimore implies but does not specifically say "dead men" as Fitgerald does.

6) Note also how L awkwardly breaks a phrase in the middle between two lines (strong souls/of heroes, feasting/of dogs).

7) The only point where I somewhat prefer the Lattimore is "strong souls of heroes" vs. "brave souls". But I can see F's reasons: characteristically longer phrases are going to get tiring if repeated over hundreds of pages.

,,,,,,,,

The above is just a sample. I compared much more than just the openings in Richard Lattimore and Robert Fitzgerald (and other translators). I compared many passages, and when I turned at random to a page, or when I found a passage of Fitzgerald that moved me deeply, I looked it up elsewhere and (only in the case of Fagels, sometimes, but not always) was the passage so vivid or effective or moving. [Lattimore and Butler and Chapman and many other translators of either Iliad or Odyssey or both are not (well, not all of them)-bad- translators of Homer. It's just that Fitzgerald is superb.]

Here is how one reviewer put it: "Mr. Fitzgerald has solved virtually every problem that has plagued translators of Homer. The narrative runs, the dialogue speaks, the military action is clear, and the repetitive epithets become useful text rather than exotic relics."

Probably it's a matter of personal taste, and the fact that it really was in Lattimore's versions that I first read Homer doubtless has something to do with it--but on several of those points you make comparison, I find myself preferring Lattimore. (For instance, "delicate feasting" sounds stronger to me than "carrion", and "two men first contending" made me lose track of the entire passage, forcing a subsequent rereading.) Plus, if my dim memories of the Greek text are correct (and they may well be wrong), Lattimore's version follows the Greek somewhat more closely. Does the Greek actually say "Lord Marshal"?

I suppose it's a case of de gustibus, etc.

But thank you for the detailed comparison. I'll have to reacquaint myself with Fitzgerald.

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks, Phil, I keep reaching for the Atlas button only to find it has been disabled.

Yes, "sing the anger" is nice and literal but the work has to be readable to be enjoyable at length. I did like the Fitzgerald better before I knew it was him. He seems to steer a middle course between Lattimore and Chapman? Sense and rhythm, then ornament, and never make the reader stop to figure out the syntax. Lattimore's alliteration doesn't make up for /since that time when first there stood in division of conflict/.

I never have been able to enjoy classical metrical verse forms, but I do get and enjoy Beowulf and most germanic epic immensely. Of course knowing the language is best, and I feel sorry for those who have to read Shakespeare in translation. Richard II is the best "epic poem" I have ever heard.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Ted Keer

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, do you think we could break the last x number of posts onto their own thread on, say, "Great Books and Literature"?

Phil,

I'll do this sometime tomorrow.

Dayamm!

Now I'm going to have to read this thing.

Michael

(just joking...)

[Philip Coates]

> He seems to steer a middle course between Lattimore and Chapman

Ted, I don't remember all the individual translators I perused when I was first looking for a translation of the Odyssey and I don't specifically remember what I didn't like in Chapman, but I remember the first choice a poem translator had to make was between doing it as prose for the sake of clarity and a smooth flowing story, sort of a novel-like form. And choosing poetry. I found the into prose translators to be crystal clear and I could follow the story as easily as reading a James Bond novel. But those translators...were, well, prosaic. They didn't capture what one writer called the "surge and thunder of the Odyssey." Then there were the translators who wanted to be faithful to the poetry, the magic of the original, so they did it in verse. But that is hugely difficult and, prior to reading Fitzgerald, I tended to find that you really had to struggle to find the clear story telling or avoid moments of confusion or what-is-Homer-talking-about unclarity, even though the language in isolation was often beautiful.

Jeffrey, there are certainly beautiful lines in Lattimore - I have both F and L sitting in front of me tonight on my desk. My favorite thing to do is to clip, tape flag sticky a beautiful passage in L and then see how others rendered it.

Prolongs and deepens the enjoyment of a work of art.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Philip Coates

[Philip Coates]

> Dayamm! Now I'm going to have to read this thing. [Michael]

Ha, ha. Very funny.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Philip Coates

[kiaer.ts]

Ted, I don't remember all the individual translators I perused when I was first looking for a translation of the Odyssey and I don't specifically remember what I didn't like in Chapman, but I remember the first choice a poem translator had to make was between doing it as prose for the sake of clarity and a smooth flowing story, sort of a novel-like form. And choosing poetry. I found the into prose translators to be crystal clear and I could follow the story as easily as reading a James Bond novel. But those translators...were, well, prosaic. They didn't capture what one writer called the "surge and thunder of the Odyssey." Then there were the translators who wanted to be faithful to the poetry, the magic of the original, so they did it in verse. But that is hugely difficult and, prior to reading Fitzgerald, I tended to find that you really had to struggle to find the clear story telling or avoid moments of confusion or what-is-Homer-talking-about unclarity, even though the language in isolation was often beautiful.

For some reason I can't find the text of Chapman on line. If I had to memorize any of Homer I suppose I would want Chapman, but his strict scheme is just too much, the rhyme a distraction, and you know he must have sacrificed accuracy for form - although he is praised for accuracy. You say you must chose between poetry and prose, which is of course without saying, but prose can definitely show excellent word choice and plenty of ornamentation. I love reading G K Chesterton's prose. If you chose a poetic form, the worst is either to try to mock the Greek meter on one side (it just doesn't work in English, unless I alone am deaf) or to choose like Chapman some strict but simple rhyme scheme. I would go with blank verse. While it's far from easy, you should have no difficulty being accurate to the sense in blank verse. Then let the alliteration and assonance and the occasional unforced rhyme take care of themselves. At least I the genius would do it that way. Ozymandias is my favorite poems for many reasons. The assonance on the vowel of <i>and</i> is an incredible effect.

I haven't read more than a dozen pages of any translation of Homer. I have read a very little of the original Greek. As I said before it's Beowulf and the OE epic form that I like. I have also read the entire Crawford verse translation of the Kalevala. That works excellently if you can avoid reading it in sing song. You can get a copy of that in print and it's available here in full on line. Here's his translation's first verse:

RUNE I.

BIRTH OF WAINAMOINEN.

IN primeval times, a maiden,

Beauteous Daughter of the Ether,

Passed for ages her existence

In the great expanse of heaven,

O'er the prairies yet enfolded.

Wearisome the maiden growing,

Her existence sad and hopeless,

Thus alone to live for ages

In the infinite expanses

Of the air above the sea-foam,

In the far outstretching spaces,

In a solitude of ether,

She descended to the ocean,

Waves her coach, and waves her pillow.

Thereupon the rising storm-wind

Flying from the East in fierceness,

Whips the ocean into surges,

Strikes the stars with sprays of ocean

Till the waves are white with fervor.

To and fro they toss the maiden,

Storm-encircled, hapless maiden;

With her sport the rolling billows,

With her play the storm-wind forces,

On the blue back of the waters;

On the white-wreathed waves of ocean,

Play the forces of the salt-sea,

With the lone and helpless maiden;

Till at last in full conception,

Union now of force and beauty,

Sink the storm-winds into slumber;

Overburdened now the maiden

Cannot rise above the surface;

Seven hundred years she wandered,

Ages nine of man's existence,

Swam the ocean hither, thither,

Could not rise above the waters,

Conscious only of her travail;

Seven hundred years she labored

Ere her first-born was delivered.

Thus she swam as water-mother,

Toward the east, and also southward,

Toward the west, and also northward;

Swam the sea in all directions,

Frightened at the strife of storm-winds,

Swam in travail, swam unceasing,

Ere her first-born was delivered.

This follows the meter of the source ( a different verse is given):

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen itse tuon sanoiksi virkki:

"Näistäpä toki tulisi kalanluinen kanteloinen,

kun oisi osoajata; soiton luisen laatijata."

Kun ei toista tullutkana, ei ollut osoajata,

soiton luisen laatijata, vaka vanha Väinämöinen

itse loihe laatijaksi, tekijäksi teentelihe.

Laati soiton hauinluisen, suoritti ilon ikuisen.

Kust' on koppa kanteletta? Hauin suuren leukaluusta.

Kust' on naulat kanteletta? Ne on hauin hampahista.

Kusta kielet kanteletta? Hivuksista Hiien ruunan.

Jo oli soitto suorittuna, valmihina kanteloinen,

soitto suuri hauinluinen, kantelo kalaneväinen.

Tuli tuohon nuoret miehet, tuli nainehet urohot,

tuli pojat puol'-ikäiset sekä pienet piikalapset,

tytöt nuoret, vaimot vanhat, naiset keskikertaisetki,

kanteletta katsomahan, soittoa tähyämähän.

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen käski nuoren, käski vanhan,

käski keskinkertaisenki soittamahan sormillansa

tuota rautaista romua, kalanluista kanteletta.

Soitti nuoret, soitti vanhat, soitti keskikertaisetki.

Nuoret soitti, sormet notkui, vanhat väänti, pää vapisi:

ei ilo ilolle nousnut, soitto soitolle ylennyt.

[anonrobt]

Ted, I don't remember all the individual translators I perused when I was first looking for a translation of the Odyssey and I don't specifically remember what I didn't like in Chapman, but I remember the first choice a poem translator had to make was between doing it as prose for the sake of clarity and a smooth flowing story, sort of a novel-like form. And choosing poetry. I found the into prose translators to be crystal clear and I could follow the story as easily as reading a James Bond novel. But those translators...were, well, prosaic. They didn't capture what one writer called the "surge and thunder of the Odyssey." Then there were the translators who wanted to be faithful to the poetry, the magic of the original, so they did it in verse. But that is hugely difficult and, prior to reading Fitzgerald, I tended to find that you really had to struggle to find the clear story telling or avoid moments of confusion or what-is-Homer-talking-about unclarity, even though the language in isolation was often beautiful.

For some reason I can't find the text of Chapman on line. If I had to memorize any of Homer I suppose I would want Chapman, but his strict scheme is just too much, the rhyme a distraction, and you know he must have sacrificed accuracy for form - although he is praised for accuracy. You say you must chose between poetry and prose, which is of course without saying, but prose can definitely show excellent word choice and plenty of ornamentation. I love reading G K Chesterton's prose. If you chose a poetic form, the worst is either to try to mock the Greek meter on one side (it just doesn't work in English, unless I alone am deaf) or to choose like Chapman some strict but simple rhyme scheme. I would go with blank verse. While it's far from easy, you should have no difficulty being accurate to the sense in blank verse. Then let the alliteration and assonance and the occasional unforced rhyme take care of themselves. At least I the genius would do it that way. Ozymandias is my favorite poems for many reasons. The assonance on the vowel of <i>and</i> is an incredible effect.

I haven't read more than a dozen pages of any translation of Homer. I have read a very little of the original Greek. As I said before it's Beowulf and the OE epic form that I like. I have also read the entire Crawford verse translation of the Kalevala. That works excellently if you can avoid reading it in sing song. You can get a copy of that in print and it's available here in full on line. Here's his translation's first verse:

RUNE I.

BIRTH OF WAINAMOINEN.

IN primeval times, a maiden,

Beauteous Daughter of the Ether,

Passed for ages her existence

In the great expanse of heaven,

O'er the prairies yet enfolded.

Wearisome the maiden growing,

Her existence sad and hopeless,

Thus alone to live for ages

In the infinite expanses

Of the air above the sea-foam,

In the far outstretching spaces,

In a solitude of ether,

She descended to the ocean,

Waves her coach, and waves her pillow.

Thereupon the rising storm-wind

Flying from the East in fierceness,

Whips the ocean into surges,

Strikes the stars with sprays of ocean

Till the waves are white with fervor.

To and fro they toss the maiden,

Storm-encircled, hapless maiden;

With her sport the rolling billows,

With her play the storm-wind forces,

On the blue back of the waters;

On the white-wreathed waves of ocean,

Play the forces of the salt-sea,

With the lone and helpless maiden;

Till at last in full conception,

Union now of force and beauty,

Sink the storm-winds into slumber;

Overburdened now the maiden

Cannot rise above the surface;

Seven hundred years she wandered,

Ages nine of man's existence,

Swam the ocean hither, thither,

Could not rise above the waters,

Conscious only of her travail;

Seven hundred years she labored

Ere her first-born was delivered.

Thus she swam as water-mother,

Toward the east, and also southward,

Toward the west, and also northward;

Swam the sea in all directions,

Frightened at the strife of storm-winds,

Swam in travail, swam unceasing,

Ere her first-born was delivered.

This follows the meter of the source ( a different verse is given):

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen itse tuon sanoiksi virkki:

"Näistäpä toki tulisi kalanluinen kanteloinen,

kun oisi osoajata; soiton luisen laatijata."

Kun ei toista tullutkana, ei ollut osoajata,

soiton luisen laatijata, vaka vanha Väinämöinen

itse loihe laatijaksi, tekijäksi teentelihe.

Laati soiton hauinluisen, suoritti ilon ikuisen.

Kust' on koppa kanteletta? Hauin suuren leukaluusta.

Kust' on naulat kanteletta? Ne on hauin hampahista.

Kusta kielet kanteletta? Hivuksista Hiien ruunan.

Jo oli soitto suorittuna, valmihina kanteloinen,

soitto suuri hauinluinen, kantelo kalaneväinen.

Tuli tuohon nuoret miehet, tuli nainehet urohot,

tuli pojat puol'-ikäiset sekä pienet piikalapset,

tytöt nuoret, vaimot vanhat, naiset keskikertaisetki,

kanteletta katsomahan, soittoa tähyämähän.

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen käski nuoren, käski vanhan,

käski keskinkertaisenki soittamahan sormillansa

tuota rautaista romua, kalanluista kanteletta.

Soitti nuoret, soitti vanhat, soitti keskikertaisetki.

Nuoret soitti, sormet notkui, vanhat väänti, pää vapisi:

ei ilo ilolle nousnut, soitto soitolle ylennyt.

Chapman's translation - http://www.bartleby.com/111/

[jeffrey smith]

Here's the corresponding translation by Keith Bosley, published by OUP as part of the World's Classics series (1989)

There was a lass, an air girl

a nice nature-daughter, she

long remained holy

for ever girlish

in the air's long yards

on its level grounds.

Her times grew weary

and her life felt strange

from being always alone

living as a lass

in the air's long yards

in the empty wastes.

So now she steps further down

launched herself upon the waves

on the clear high seas

upon the open expanse.

There came a great gust of wind

from the east nasty weather

lashed the sea to foam

whipped it into waves.

The wind lulled the maid

and the billow drove the lass

about the blue main

and the froth capped waves;

and the wind blew her full

the sea makes her fat.

She bore a hard womb

a difficult bellyful

seven hundred years

nine ages of man;

but no birth was born

no creature was created.

The lass rolled as the water-mother;

she swims east, swims west

swims north-west and south

swims all the skylines

in fiery birth pangs

in hard belly-woes;

but no birth was born

no creature was created.

("Canto I. In the beginning. lines 111-150)

The first 110 lines correspond to Crawford's "Proem".

Bosley gives a long discussion about meter and other matters in his introduction. He more or less abandoned standard meter, and confined himself to lines of varying syllabic count (five, seven, or nine--always an odd number)

that let the stresses and alliteration fall where they might (or at least allowed him maximum flexibility in placing them).

NB: The editing function is not co-operating tonight and isn't letting me follow the layout of the printed text, which indents the five-syllable lines but not the seven or nine syllable lines.

Edited September 6, 2009 by jeffrey smith

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks, Jeffrey. Bosley seems to have gone for a phrase for phrase translation. It is odd that he abandon's the eight-syllable four stress lines of the original and the chooses an odd number of syllables as a constraint for his translation. And I much prefer the archaic language of Crawford to Bosley's odd mix of modern colloquialism and occasional literalism "nice nature-girl" sounds hippyish and "air's long yards" is far too literal.

It is very interesting to compare the original along with a mechanical translation form google to Bosley's translation. (You might want to open two browsers to see this side by side.)

Olipa impi, ilman tyttö,

kave luonnotar korea.

Piti viikoista pyhyyttä,

iän kaiken impeyttä

ilman pitkillä pihoilla,

tasaisilla tanterilla.

Ikävystyi aikojansa,

ouostui elämätänsä,

aina yksin ollessansa,

impenä eläessänsä

ilman pitkillä pihoilla,

avaroilla autioilla.

Jop' on astuiksen alemma,

laskeusi lainehille,

meren selvälle selälle,

ulapalle aukealle.

Tuli suuri tuulen puuska,

iästä vihainen ilma;

meren kuohuille kohotti,

lainehille laikahutti.

Tuuli neittä tuuitteli,

aalto impeä ajeli

ympäri selän sinisen,

lakkipäien lainehien:

tuuli tuuli kohtuiseksi,

meri paksuksi panevi.

Kantoi kohtua kovoa,

vatsantäyttä vaikeata

vuotta seitsemän satoa,

yheksän yrön ikeä;

eikä synny syntyminen,

luovu luomatoin sikiö.

Vieri impi veen emona.

Uipi iät, uipi lännet,

uipi luotehet, etelät,

uipi kaikki ilman rannat

tuskissa tulisen synnyn,

vatsanvaivoissa kovissa;

eikä synny syntyminen,

luovu luomatoin sikiö.

Whether the maid, without a girl

Nature walking Korean.

Weeks had to holiness,

age of all impeyttä

without a yard long,

flat hunting ground.

Ikävystyi aikojansa,

ouostui elämätänsä,

ollessansa always alone,

impenä his life

without a yard long,

avaroilla deserted.

Jop 'is astuiksen alemma,

landing surfing Hille,

selvälle back of the sea,

open sea open area.

Was a big gust of wind,

age of angry air;

Marine kuohuille raised,

Hille Laine laikahutti.

Wind tuuitteli maid,

wave impeä ajeli

around the back of the blue,

lakkipäien surfing sweat:

wind wind kohtuiseksi,

thick sea panevi.

Kovoa reaching the uterus,

belly full hard

seven years after harvest,

yheksän yrön ikea;

or no emergence,

abandoned embryos created versa.

Vieri maid veen dam.

UIPI ages, UIPI lännet,

UIPI luotehet, etelät,

UIPI without all the beaches

the emergence of fiery pain,

vatsanvaivoissa hard;

or no emergence,

abandoned embryos created versa.

The mechanical translation produces nonsense (Korean) and leaves much that it does not recognize untranslated. But compare these lines:

Bosley:

on the clear high seas

upon the open expanse.

There came a great gust of wind

from the east nasty weather

Literal

(selvälle) back of the sea,

open sea open area.

Was a big gust of wind,

age of angry air;

I agree "great gust" is better than a "big" one, but why "nasty weather" like a contemporary forecaster (Windy Bellows, live at eleven) rather than the simple "angry air"?

You have to love the internet and sources like google translate, don't you?

[jeffrey smith]

Thanks, Jeffrey. Bosley seems to have gone for a phrase for phrase translation. It is odd that he abandon's the eight-syllable four stress lines of the original and the chooses an odd number of syllables as a constraint for his translation. And I much prefer the archaic language of Crawford to Bosley's odd mix of modern colloquialism and occasional literalism "nice nature-girl" sounds hippyish and "air's long yards" is far too literal.

It is very interesting to compare the original along with a mechanical translation form google to Bosley's translation. (You might want to open two browsers to see this side by side.)

[text omitted]

The mechanical translation produces nonsense (Korean) and leaves much that it does not recognize untranslated. But compare these lines:

Bosley:

on the clear high seas

upon the open expanse.

There came a great gust of wind

from the east nasty weather

Literal

(selvälle) back of the sea,

open sea open area.

Was a big gust of wind,

age of angry air;

I agree "great gust" is better than a "big" one, but why "nasty weather" like a contemporary forecaster (Windy Bellows, live at eleven) rather than the simple "angry air"?

You have to love the internet and sources like google translate, don't you?

Bosley argues (in the Introduction) that the original meter is itself fairly irregular, and that (in essence) it doesn't work in English. But he gives no specific reason for preferring the syllablic-count method he uses.

He also argues that the original Finnish/Karelian was fairly colloquial, so by his lights Crawford's text was too high falutin' (although he doesn't mention Crawford). That may explain why he chose "nasty weather", although I do agree with you that "angry air" would seem a better choice. Bosley does admit to reducing the alliteration of the original, which might also have motivated him to not use "angry air" (although "east, nasty weather) contains its own dose of alliteration.) But I'm not adept enough at Finnish to say which one best represents the sonic qualities of the original. (The only Finnish word I actually know is the name of the country, Soumi.)

Jeffrey

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks, Jeffrey.

The metrical form is actually quite easy and regular in the Finnish, although the accented syllable is changed when there is a need for it. The meter is technically called trochaic tetrameter, which means four trochees (a sequence of one stressed and one unstressed syllable) per line. It's the same meter as the Song of Hiawatha, familiar from Bugs Bunny:

By the shores of Gitche Gumee,

By the shining Big-Sea-Water,

Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,

Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis.

(Longfellow was directly inspired by Crawford's translation of the Kalevala.

You can actually read the Kalevala quite easily with a few rules. The pure vowels and consonants are as in German, with "v" as in English, "y" as German "ü" and "ä" as the English "a" vowels in "happy cat". The first syllable of a word is stressed, with a weaker stress on odd syllables thereafter. (This rule can be broken when necessary to fit the meter.) Double vowels and double consonants are pronounced long. So the line /aina yksin ollessansa/ is pronounced as if it were /aina yksin ol les sansa/ with the last word almost like "all less senses." Finally, most sequences of two non-identical vowels are run together as diphthongs like the vowels in "coin", "aisle" and "Ausländer". They run just about any two sequences of vowels together. Treat "u" with another vowel like a "w" and "i" with another vowel like a "y". The word for Finnish, "Suomi" starts with "sw" and ryhmes with "homey."

So, broken up by syllable with hyphens and by beat with slashes:

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen itse tuon sanoiksi virkki:

"Näistäpä toki tulisi kalanluinen kanteloinen,

kun oisi osoajata; soiton luisen laatijata."

/Va-ka /van-ha /Väi-nä/möi-nen /it-se /tuon sa/noik-si /virk-ki

/Näis-tä/pä to/ki tu/li-si /ka-lan/lui-nen /kan-te/loi-nen

/kun o/isi /o-soa/ja-ta; /soi-ton /lui-sen /laati-jata

You will see that you either have to alter the stress or break the meter with "itse tuon sanoiksi virkki" which comes out like "it's a twonsah noyksey veerk key" if you stick to the meter.

This sounds complex, but you'll find it's easy to pick up, especially if you know some Italian and/or German.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, do you think we could break the last x number of posts onto their own thread on, say, "Great Books and Literature"?

Phil,

I'll do this sometime tomorrow.

Dayamm!

Now I'm going to have to read this thing.

Michael

(just joking...)

Done.

Thread split from here.

I even read the damn thing.

(Oops...)

Michael

[Philip Coates]

Thanks, Michael. Especially for reading my deathless prose.

> "It's the same meter as the Song of Hiawatha, familiar from Bugs Bunny"

Ted, I'm still unable to find the Bugs Bunny translation of the Iliad. It may force me to rethink my argument that Fitzgerald is best. I still want to see the part where Achilles fights Hector with a carrot in hand, gibing, "What's Up Doc?" and the latter sticks his tongue out and says defiantly, "You Siwwy Wabbit." Jeff Riggenbach assures me that this is the translation most faithful to attic Greek. (In koine, your mileage may differ.)

Edited September 6, 2009 by Philip Coates

[jeffrey smith]

Thanks, Jeffrey.

The metrical form is actually quite easy and regular in the Finnish, although the accented syllable is changed when there is a need for it. The meter is technically called trochaic tetrameter, which means four trochees (a sequence of one stressed and one unstressed syllable) per line. It's the same meter as the Song of Hiawatha, familiar from Bugs Bunny:

By the shores of Gitche Gumee,

By the shining Big-Sea-Water,

Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,

Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis.

(Longfellow was directly inspired by Crawford's translation of the Kalevala.

You can actually read the Kalevala quite easily with a few rules. The pure vowels and consonants are as in German, with "v" as in English, "y" as German "ü" and "ä" as the English "a" vowels in "happy cat". The first syllable of a word is stressed, with a weaker stress on odd syllables thereafter. (This rule can be broken when necessary to fit the meter.) Double vowels and double consonants are pronounced long. So the line /aina yksin ollessansa/ is pronounced as if it were /aina yksin ol les sansa/ with the last word almost like "all less senses." Finally, most sequences of two non-identical vowels are run together as diphthongs like the vowels in "coin", "aisle" and "Ausländer". They run just about any two sequences of vowels together. Treat "u" with another vowel like a "w" and "i" with another vowel like a "y". The word for Finnish, "Suomi" starts with "sw" and ryhmes with "homey."

So, broken up by syllable with hyphens and by beat with slashes:

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen itse tuon sanoiksi virkki:

"Näistäpä toki tulisi kalanluinen kanteloinen,

kun oisi osoajata; soiton luisen laatijata."

/Va-ka /van-ha /Väi-nä/möi-nen /it-se /tuon sa/noik-si /virk-ki

/Näis-tä/pä to/ki tu/li-si /ka-lan/lui-nen /kan-te/loi-nen

/kun o/isi /o-soa/ja-ta; /soi-ton /lui-sen /laati-jata

You will see that you either have to alter the stress or break the meter with "itse tuon sanoiksi virkki" which comes out like "it's a twonsah noyksey veerk key" if you stick to the meter.

This sounds complex, but you'll find it's easy to pick up, especially if you know some Italian and/or German.

Bosley contends that Finnish has a quantitative meter, like classical Greek and Latin, not a qualitative (accent) meter like we are used to in English, and that Finnish uses a tonic (pitch related) accent. So stress per se is a secondary factor in the original Finnish. You'll notice, by the bye, that Hiawatha's metrics have not been kindly treated by posterity....

Also, Bosley does mention Crawford. It seems Crawford made his translation from a German translation and not directly from the Finnish. The first translation direct from Finnish to English was Kirby in 1907, which is apparently still in print in the Everyman Library series. Sibelius set some passages of the Kullervo cantos in his Kullervo, Op. 7--the part of the text in which he rapes/seduces his sister (doesn't know she's his sister until too late) and in which he commits suicide (parts of cantos 35-36); the recording I have uses Kirby as the translation of the sung texts, and judging by those passages the meter definitely stands out in Kirby's version; while his diction is midway between Crawford and Bosley.

BTW, the recording might be of interest to you. It's an all Finn ensemble (soprano, baritone, chorus, and orchestra), with the liner notes in English, French, German, and Finnish, on the Ondine label (ODE 112-5) (Ondine is itself a Finnish label, although it's just been taken over by the Naxos group).

http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3566

Not coincidentally, I have it on the CD player even as I write this.

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks, Jeffrey.

The metrical form is actually quite easy and regular in the Finnish, although the accented syllable is changed when there is a need for it. The meter is technically called trochaic tetrameter, which means four trochees (a sequence of one stressed and one unstressed syllable) per line. It's the same meter as the Song of Hiawatha, familiar from Bugs Bunny:

By the shores of Gitche Gumee,

By the shining Big-Sea-Water,

Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,

Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis.

(Longfellow was directly inspired by Crawford's translation of the Kalevala.

You can actually read the Kalevala quite easily with a few rules. The pure vowels and consonants are as in German, with "v" as in English, "y" as German "ü" and "ä" as the English "a" vowels in "happy cat". The first syllable of a word is stressed, with a weaker stress on odd syllables thereafter. (This rule can be broken when necessary to fit the meter.) Double vowels and double consonants are pronounced long. So the line /aina yksin ollessansa/ is pronounced as if it were /aina yksin ol les sansa/ with the last word almost like "all less senses." Finally, most sequences of two non-identical vowels are run together as diphthongs like the vowels in "coin", "aisle" and "Ausländer". They run just about any two sequences of vowels together. Treat "u" with another vowel like a "w" and "i" with another vowel like a "y". The word for Finnish, "Suomi" starts with "sw" and ryhmes with "homey."

So, broken up by syllable with hyphens and by beat with slashes:

Vaka vanha Väinämöinen itse tuon sanoiksi virkki:

"Näistäpä toki tulisi kalanluinen kanteloinen,

kun oisi osoajata; soiton luisen laatijata."

/Va-ka /van-ha /Väi-nä/möi-nen /it-se /tuon sa/noik-si /virk-ki

/Näis-tä/pä to/ki tu/li-si /ka-lan/lui-nen /kan-te/loi-nen

/kun o/isi /o-soa/ja-ta; /soi-ton /lui-sen /laati-jata

You will see that you either have to alter the stress or break the meter with "itse tuon sanoiksi virkki" which comes out like "it's a twonsah noyksey veerk key" if you stick to the meter.

This sounds complex, but you'll find it's easy to pick up, especially if you know some Italian and/or German.

Bosley contends that Finnish has a quantitative meter, like classical Greek and Latin, not a qualitative (accent) meter like we are used to in English, and that Finnish uses a tonic (pitch related) accent. So stress per se is a secondary factor in the original Finnish. You'll notice, by the bye, that Hiawatha's metrics have not been kindly treated by posterity....

Also, Bosley does mention Crawford. It seems Crawford made his translation from a German translation and not directly from the Finnish. The first translation direct from Finnish to English was Kirby in 1907, which is apparently still in print in the Everyman Library series. Sibelius set some passages of the Kullervo cantos in his Kullervo, Op. 7--the part of the text in which he rapes/seduces his sister (doesn't know she's his sister until too late) and in which he commits suicide (parts of cantos 35-36); the recording I have uses Kirby as the translation of the sung texts, and judging by those passages the meter definitely stands out in Kirby's version; while his diction is midway between Crawford and Bosley.

BTW, the recording might be of interest to you. It's an all Finn ensemble (soprano, baritone, chorus, and orchestra), with the liner notes in English, French, German, and Finnish, on the Ondine label (ODE 112-5) (Ondine is itself a Finnish label, although it's just been taken over by the Naxos group).

http://www.ondine.net/index.php?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=3566

Not coincidentally, I have it on the CD player even as I write this.

Thanks. Well, yes, Finnish does distinguish length in vowels (long are written double) and make the distinction between long and short consonants. These length considerations are foreign to modern English, our idea of a long vowel is one of quality, not quantity. And yes, Finnish and Swedish have tonic stress, but it is still a question of stressed and unstressed syllable, it's not a real tone system like Chinese. I just don't know how he can say that The poem doesn't adhere exactly to the trochaic tetrameter - so he's going to switch over to a totally irrelevant meter scheme, and let it constrain him. As for Crawford having translated from the German, that doesn't surprise me. But Crawford is both legible and does keep to the rhythmic scheme. I am as familiar with Finnish as I am with Arabic, totally illiterate but I can recognize it and puzzle out the pronunciation.

The CD sounds interesting, although I haven't bought one in five years. I think I'll search youtube. If I were a film maker I would think an animated art version of the Kalevala with subtitles would be a very interesting project.

On a totally separate note, after searching for a ppbk or library copy of Childhood's End by Clarke for 15 years (yes!) I have finally found one at B&N and am reading it now.

[anonrobt]

There is this version of the Iliad which is interesting -

http://limerickiliad.blogspot.com/

[kiaer.ts]

The witch Louhi, queen of the North, uses tricks to have the Sampo (a magical cornucopia) forged, and poison to steal it.

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[jeffrey smith]

The witch Louhi, queen of the North, uses tricks to have the Sampo (a magical cornucopia) forged, and poison to steal it.

The OUP uses that exact picture on the cover of the Bosley translation.

Some other Kalevala paintings by the same artist:

The Forging of the Sampo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallen_Kallela_The_Forging_of_the_Sampo.jpg

Lemminkainen's Mother Restores Him to Life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallen_Kallela_Lemminkainens_Mother.jpg

Joukahainen's Revenge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joukahainen%27s_revenge.jpg

The Story of Aino

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg

Kullervo Curses Himself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallen_Kallela_Kullervos_Curse.jpg

And the artist himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akseli_Gallen-Kallela

Another of his paintings is used as the artwork on the Ondine recording of Kullervo. It's entitled Kullervo Goes to War. Wiki doesn't seem to have it, so here's a copy from Flickr.

Jeffrey

[kiaer.ts]

And here's the Kaari Martin as the Maiden Aino from a Finnish operatic production: