Great Literature

[Mikee]

Well, Jesus frekin' Christ, it doesn't look like I'm going to get much response to all those posts I made on "Willy and Me" or to my questions in #90 - which should have connected it to comparable events in people's lives.

Why did I waste my effing time?? I suspect all the esoterica about ancient Finnish vampires might have driven away the truly massive audience for literature.

Or maybe just the word Shakespeare, when there are events in Obamaland to fulminate about?

Put down that science fiction book and back away slowly with your hands up.

Aw Phil. Awakenings.... Learning how to read at about five. Discovering the public library at about nine, starting very methodically in the natural science section reading about every fifth to tenth book on every shelf. When I was about ten a very nice librarian told me I could get a library card, check out books and take them home to read. I didn't have to put them away every time (terrible to come back and find a book you've been reading has been checked out!). Later she told me I could actually take home more than one at a time. I probably read about two hundred books in three years. Then I discovered the science fiction section. I think the first book I read was "flatland", I think by Abbott (on the first shelf of course). Then Asimov, Bradbury, Clark, Heinlein! (loved Heinlein) and so forth. I did read a little Shakespeare in high school. I liked it, but it seemed a bit dated. It didn't tweak my imagination like pure science or the science fiction books I liked. I lived in my head, if not in the latest story I was reading I made up my own world. I was a very poor student. Really. There were classes I would have liked to take that I wasn't allowed entry to because of my "rep" as an underachiever. I loved science but wasn't allowed to take physics! But I got the highest score in the school in the physical science portion of the ACT's. I always did well on tests but I didn't do any homework. I didn't have time for it and I simply couldn't keep my attention on it. It was like slavery, I simply wouldn't do it. So, speaking for myself Phil, if I don't reply to your posts, for your requests for feedback, it's because I cannot relate at all to your experience. Mine was very different and continues to be. I always thought of the "High achievers" in school (unfairly, I know) as "Public School rote learners", somewhat contemptuously. But the fact is, now, I wished I had worked very hard when I was young and gotten to take the courses I didn't take and moved on from there. I didn't take calculus until I was in my forties and then I loved it. Too late for a career. Damn, that thread on linguistics I participated in: I can't even diagram a sentence! I never did my homework. Any young kids reading this, let this be a lesson to you. Do your homework!

[anonrobt]

Well, Jesus frekin' Christ, it doesn't look like I'm going to get much response to all those posts I made on "Willy and Me" or to my questions in #90 - which should have connected it to comparable events in people's lives.

Why did I waste my effing time?? I suspect all the esoterica about ancient Finnish vampires might have driven away the truly massive audience for literature.

Or maybe just the word Shakespeare, when there are events in Obamaland to fulminate about?

Put down that science fiction book and back away slowly with your hands up.

Aw Phil. Awakenings.... Learning how to read at about five. Discovering the public library at about nine, starting very methodically in the natural science section reading about every fifth to tenth book on every shelf. When I was about ten a very nice librarian told me I could get a library card, check out books and take them home to read. I didn't have to put them away every time (terrible to come back and find a book you've been reading has been checked out!). Later she told me I could actually take home more than one at a time. I probably read about two hundred books in three years. Then I discovered the science fiction section. I think the first book I read was "flatland", I think by Abbott (on the first shelf of course). Then Asimov, Bradbury, Clark, Heinlein! (loved Heinlein) and so forth. I did read a little Shakespeare in high school. I liked it, but it seemed a bit dated. It didn't tweak my imagination like pure science or the science fiction books I liked. I lived in my head, if not in the latest story I was reading I made up my own world. I was a very poor student. Really. There were classes I would have liked to take that I wasn't allowed entry to because of my "rep" as an underachiever. I loved science but wasn't allowed to take physics! But I got the highest score in the school in the physical science portion of the ACT's. I always did well on tests but I didn't do any homework. I didn't have time for it and I simply couldn't keep my attention on it. It was like slavery, I simply wouldn't do it. So, speaking for myself Phil, if I don't reply to your posts, for your requests for feedback, it's because I cannot relate at all to your experience. Mine was very different and continues to be. I always thought of the "High achievers" in school (unfairly, I know) as "Public School rote learners", somewhat contemptuously. But the fact is, now, I wished I had worked very hard when I was young and gotten to take the courses I didn't take and moved on from there. I didn't take calculus until I was in my forties and then I loved it. Too late for a career. Damn, that thread on linguistics I participated in: I can't even diagram a sentence! I never did my homework. Any young kids reading this, let this be a lesson to you. Do your homework!

I'm the oddball it seems... while went to public schools, must have lucked into the 'right' or best ones during my years as a military brat - they all had terrific teachers... and as an avid reader, going to the public library in Lake Geneva when 7 or 8 onwards, seeing Shakespeare and other classics of literature at an early age - on stage as well as in books [yes, read Shakespeare back when 8 - and Sandburg's six volumes of Lincoln when 9] and all the rest of the classical education over the years thru high school [bronte, Austin, Dickens, Spencer, Longfellow, Whittier, Chaucer, etc., etc., etc....]... loved them all, tho thought Tom Hardy dry and unappealing, worse than Tolstoy even - lol... so my experience was quite different from most [even got to see Richard Burton playing Hamlet no less, and acted Anthony in Julius Caesar [we did them in classrooms back then, most the class taking parts, and most all able to read well, too]... so no, sorry, not really relate either...

[Philip Coates]

Mike and Robert, I can understand what you're saying - and how your experiences have been very different.

I was hoping that some readers could relate, not to the more intellectual or academic changes necessarily, but in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' or major change in direction that they could share some of the steps of. That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the "oh, yeah!, that reminds me" type.

[Xray]

After college, I spent my twenties in "the Big Apple". Almost every summer, there was free Shakespeare in Central Park. To me, that was like free brocolli. "Literary" girlfriends trying to drag me or browbeat me into going? No friggin' way!

LOL - too funny, your comparison about finding free Shakespeare back then 'about as appealing as free broccoli'.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Xray

[Philip Coates]

Xray, I'm glad someone is reading my posts carefully enough to get my jokes.

I'm winding back my posting at OL, though. Lack of interest/much response to the Shakespeare thing was discouraging, for example.

Also, I simply don't have the time.

[jriggenbach]

After college, I spent my twenties in "the Big Apple". Almost every summer, there was free Shakespeare in Central Park. To me, that was like free brocolli. "Literary" girlfriends trying to drag me or browbeat me into going? No friggin' way!

LOL - too funny, your comparison about finding free Shakespeare back then 'about as appealing as free broccoli'.

Broccoli is my favorite vegetable.

JR

[ginny]

Philip, this isn't the first time you've whined about stepping back from OL because because people aren't responding to your liking. The last time I believe you complained that people here weren't intellectual enough for someone like you. Is there any chance you'll actually keep your word or is this another whine?

Ginny

[Philip Coates]

None of your business.

[ginny]

Fair enough. You keep making these public announcements, so I was just curious.

[Xray]

After college, I spent my twenties in "the Big Apple". Almost every summer, there was free Shakespeare in Central Park. To me, that was like free brocolli. "Literary" girlfriends trying to drag me or browbeat me into going? No friggin' way!

LOL - too funny, your comparison about finding free Shakespeare back then 'about as appealing as free broccoli'.

Broccoli is my favorite vegetable.

JR

Which just illustrates once more that, since valuing is always subjective, there exists no such thing as an "objective" value. ;)

Edited September 19, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

After college, I spent my twenties in "the Big Apple". Almost every summer, there was free Shakespeare in Central Park. To me, that was like free brocolli. "Literary" girlfriends trying to drag me or browbeat me into going? No friggin' way!

LOL - too funny, your comparison about finding free Shakespeare back then 'about as appealing as free broccoli'.

Broccoli is my favorite vegetable.

JR

Which just illustrates once more that, since valuing is always subjective, there exists no such thing as an "objective" value.

The presence of the subjective does not prove the absolute absence of the objective, regardless of the number of examples presented. There are over 6 billion people alive today and one can adduce, I suppose, at least 1 trillion subjective values amongst them.

--Brant

Edited September 19, 2009 by Brant Gaede

[Philip Coates]

> Broccoli is my favorite vegetable.

That's like saying cyanide is my favorite poison.

[Xray]

The presence of the subjective does not prove the absolute absence of the objective, regardless of the number of examples presented. There are over 6 billion people alive today and one can adduce, I suppose, at least 1 trillion subjective values amongst them.

--Brant

I did not say that subjectivity of values implies "absolute absence of the objective".

Imo Rand's idea of "subjectivist" is an unrealistic construction she set up als the "enemy" of Objectivism.

This is currently being discussed here:

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6999&pid=79377&st=20entry79377

Edited September 19, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

> Broccoli is my favorite vegetable.

That's like saying cyanide is my favorite poison.

Is it that bad?

Lack of interest/much response to the Shakespeare thing was discouraging, for example.

I think you got quite a few interesting replies, Phil, some of them pretty detailed (by Jeff Riggenenbach and Jeffrey Smith).

Also keep in mind that people who don't actively post in the discussion may have read it too.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Xray

[Philip Coates]

> Is it that bad?

Only when it is either cooked or raw.

[Philip Coates]

my needs, when i stop or wind down conversation/posting - frequent enough feedback, responsiveness, intelligent support or critique = personal judgment call

> You also have to consider someone reading your stuff a year or more down the line. It is easy to access and look over all a poster's posts, especially if they haven't posted over 4000 times. [brant]

OK, good point. Except most of them from one, two, three years ago (even the best ones) seem to have died. I have the impression people don't do that, or if they do, they don't even bother to take a sec and say 'good post; good points' or comment any further. Not realizing that without feedback, people get discouraged. This is not just in reference to me, either. Bidinotto and some other good posters used to post a lot to Oist discussion lists. They simply went away in disgust.

I remember that whenever I saw a really superb post or article by B or by Tracinski, I would post something complimentary or add something supportive. But I seemed to be pretty alone in doing this. People would -much rather- find a nit to pick. Something to criticize gets their juices up.

> I think you got quite a few interesting replies, Phil, some of them pretty detailed (by Jeff Riggenbach and Jeffrey Smith). [Xray]

There was a tendency to reply to my long 'Willy and Me' story with "parallelism", rather than direct engagement with -any- of the many, many, many points I'd made: lists of Shakespeare books or movies -they- had seen. Display of one's own erudition. Pretty much ignoring, not finding relevant or commenting at all on any of the many details I had offerred --> the St. Crispin's day speech, Merchant of Venice, Pacino's performance and Shylock vs. Portia, how De Vito gave an example of good teaching, Mark Antony's speech as an example of turning skeptics around [Very, very relevant for Oists and libertarians - you would think someone would have picked up on that.]

And on a deeper level, my posts were less about giving my own Shakespeare laundry list but rather using that to illustrate the principle of learning and growing, changing one's mind. I even asked -twice- for feedback on that point ===>

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? Any major "awakenings".....#103 I was hoping that some readers could relate..in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' ...That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the..that reminds me type.

> Also keep in mind that people who don't actively post in the discussion may have read it too.

I don't like to write without good, solid, on topic -- feedback. This may not be necessary to you. It is to me. That's not the same as using my post as a launching pad for what they have to say, without actually commenting on my points. I've long wanted to be part of a vibrant, intelligent intellectual community. And even find people who can articulately express high level ideas that add to my knowledge. You may be different. I wrote an article for the librtarian academic journal, The Independent Review, on the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and their destructiveness. But they had no comments or letters venue.

To this day, I have no clue if people liked it or had new points for me to consider or have additional knowledge about Hobbes or think there are better examples than mine or if they can make a substantive criticism (as opposed to a nitpick).

Result: I've never even tried to write for them again.

[Xray]

> Is it that bad?

Only when it is either cooked or raw.

Try stir-fried maybe? Or baked in the oven with crumb coating (my favorite)?

But kidding aside, it is of course useless trying to praise anything to someone else if they just don't happen to like it, be it Broccoli or Balzac, Sushi or Shakespeare.

There was a tendency to reply to my long 'Willy and Me' story with "parallelism", rather than direct engagement with -any- of the many, many, many points I'd made: lists of Shakespeare books or movies -they- had seen. Display of one's own erudition. Pretty much ignoring, not finding relevant or commenting at all on any of the many details I had offerred --> the St. Crispin's day speech, Merchant of Venice, Pacino's performance and Shylock vs. Portia, how De Vito gave an example of good teaching, Mark Antony's speech as an example of turning skeptics around [Very, very relevant for Oists and libertarians - you would think someone would have picked up on that.]

And on a deeper level, my posts were less about giving my own Shakespeare laundry list but rather using that to illustrate the principle of learning and growing, changing one's mind. I even asked -twice- for feedback on that point ===>

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? Any major "awakenings".....#103 I was hoping that some readers could relate..in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' ...That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the..that reminds me type.

There were two goals you wanted to attain with your posts:

- A getting people to comment on your analyses.

- B ask them for their own experience, possible "awakenings".

So there was a double message in your posts, and I have the impression you did get replies on B.

As for the lack of replies to A - maybe people did not answer because they felt less competent in that area than you. After all, you are a literature teacher. I read your Mark Antony speech and it made me want to reread the speech.

But as it is, people often have their own long list of unread or partly read books (don't ask me how my bookshelves currently look like!) so this is often put on the back burner.

Re your #90 post:

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? .

Any major "awakenings" (other than, obviously, to Objectivism)? Used to hate history and now interested in certain areas?

Or have your broad esthetic or intellectual tastes and preferences been *rock steady* for you throughout your life - always only liking science fiction in literature from adolescence on? Hating Impressionist paintings the music of Bob Dylan from early adulthood till now?

I meant to reply to that post several times but stopped each time in the middle of writing because I felt I could not convey enough. I have just never been a literature buff, although when studying English ('Anglistik' in German), we had a long reading list to work through. But my interest and focus was on linguistics more than on literature.

As for tastes in literature, mine have stayed fairly constant. Neither fantasy stories (aside from fairy tales when I was small) nor science fiction have ever interested me. It had all to be "realistic".

As for light reading, it was mostly classic whodunits, as for 'serious' reading, it was e. g. Le Rouge et le Noir by Stendhal, Illusions Perdues by Balzac, Madame Bovary and Education Sentimentale by Flaubert, Thackeray's Vanity Fair, Tolstoi's Anna Karenina, Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamasoff, Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago, C. Bronte's Jane Eyre and G. Eliots Middlemarch which I recall as highlights in my reading.

I love the feeling of being totally immersed in the atmosphere and world of a book.

As for "awakenings", mine have been more in the realm of personal philosophy than in the field of literature, the major one being my change from believer over agnostic to finally non-believer.

But it was actually the encounter with an atheist in fiction which I recall as quite dramatic, unforgettable it fact.

At the time when I read the Brothers Karamasov, I was still a believer, and Ivan Karamasoff's scathing damnation of any belief in God in view of the incedible suffering he observed really shattered me.

I found Ivan a far more interesting character than Alyosha. The Grand Inquisitor's speech Ivan composed (story within a story) is another culmination in the novel.

Recently, I have become far more interested in natural science than I used to be, and am always on the lookout for books which can explain complicated matters to laypersons in an understandable language.

I perceive life also a personal inner journey and have never been the type to make herself comfortable in a niche; I'm always curious at what is to come, and if constant checking of my premises should lead me to change my current path, so be it. Vita in motu.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Xray

[anonrobt]

my needs, when i stop or wind down conversation/posting - frequent enough feedback, responsiveness, intelligent support or critique = personal judgment call

> You also have to consider someone reading your stuff a year or more down the line. It is easy to access and look over all a poster's posts, especially if they haven't posted over 4000 times. [brant]

OK, good point. Except most of them from one, two, three years ago (even the best ones) seem to have died. I have the impression people don't do that, or if they do, they don't even bother to take a sec and say 'good post; good points' or comment any further. Not realizing that without feedback, people get discouraged. This is not just in reference to me, either. Bidinotto and some other good posters used to post a lot to Oist discussion lists. They simply went away in disgust.

I remember that whenever I saw a really superb post or article by B or by Tracinski, I would post something complimentary or add something supportive. But I seemed to be pretty alone in doing this. People would -much rather- find a nit to pick. Something to criticize gets their juices up.

> I think you got quite a few interesting replies, Phil, some of them pretty detailed (by Jeff Riggenbach and Jeffrey Smith). [Xray]

There was a tendency to reply to my long 'Willy and Me' story with "parallelism", rather than direct engagement with -any- of the many, many, many points I'd made: lists of Shakespeare books or movies -they- had seen. Display of one's own erudition. Pretty much ignoring, not finding relevant or commenting at all on any of the many details I had offerred --> the St. Crispin's day speech, Merchant of Venice, Pacino's performance and Shylock vs. Portia, how De Vito gave an example of good teaching, Mark Antony's speech as an example of turning skeptics around [Very, very relevant for Oists and libertarians - you would think someone would have picked up on that.]

And on a deeper level, my posts were less about giving my own Shakespeare laundry list but rather using that to illustrate the principle of learning and growing, changing one's mind. I even asked -twice- for feedback on that point ===>

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? Any major "awakenings".....#103 I was hoping that some readers could relate..in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' ...That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the..that reminds me type.

> Also keep in mind that people who don't actively post in the discussion may have read it too.

I don't like to write without good, solid, on topic -- feedback. This may not be necessary to you. It is to me. That's not the same as using my post as a launching pad for what they have to say, without actually commenting on my points. I've long wanted to be part of a vibrant, intelligent intellectual community. And even find people who can articulately express high level ideas that add to my knowledge. You may be different. I wrote an article for the librtarian academic journal, The Independent Review, on the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and their destructiveness. But they had no comments or letters venue.

To this day, I have no clue if people liked it or had new points for me to consider or have additional knowledge about Hobbes or think there are better examples than mine or if they can make a substantive criticism (as opposed to a nitpick).

Result: I've never even tried to write for them again.

I can readily understand your feelings on this - in much the same manner, it is so with regards my art - especially in working my latest, The International Society of Pen and Ink Artists [ www.societyofpeninkartists.blogspot.com ]... despite having 20 others authorized to making postings, 99% of it has been me, myself and I - and tho am considered fast in doing my renderings, especially since I work in the 30"x40'size it is impossible to post new works in a day, nor a week's time, a factor needed to keeping the interest up for those wanting to follow the site... and comments are very few and far between, much because I am almost the only one who sees pen and ink in terms of a 'fine art - for contemplative purposes' vein [rather than more of illustrating, etc] and see it in anywhere the size I work with - and as such am much the 'lone voice crying out in the wilderness' [which is fine as long ago realized that is the case with this, having not found others who begin to do works in ink at the size and theming I do]... still, some feedback does indeed help keep the inspiration flowing and holding at bay the 'what's the use' ghost that persists in seeking to fog me over... but yet I persist - because it is of interest to me, and see it being [tho very slowly] of interest to others who may eventually carry it onward - the fate, as it were, of most any trailblazer... remember, it is the doing, the productive work, YOUR productive work, which is of importance - not whether or not others grasp it or appreciate it in the beginning...

[Xray]

I don't like to write without good, solid, on topic -- feedback. This may not be necessary to you. It is to me. That's not the same as using my post as a launching pad for what they have to say, without actually commenting on my points. I've long wanted to be part of a vibrant, intelligent intellectual community. And even find people who can articulately express high level ideas that add to my knowledge. You may be different. I wrote an article for the librtarian academic journal, The Independent Review, on the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and their destructiveness. But they had no comments or letters venue.

To this day, I have no clue if people liked it or had new points for me to consider or have additional knowledge about Hobbes or think there are better examples than mine or if they can make a substantive criticism (as opposed to a nitpick).

Result: I've never even tried to write for them again.

It is understandable to want feedback when communicating, but if you expect it, you set yourself up for disappointment if you don't get any reaction.

As for the article you wrote and didn't get any feedback, keep in mind that you didn't get any negative comments either, and imo if many people had subjectively judged the article as "terrible", they would have commented.

I can only go from personal experience, but the "letters to the editor" I have sent were alwayas about articles I disagreed with, so maybe people are more likely to write when disagreeng than when agreeing?

A while ago here, you gave an excellent reply to the poster who had asked on another thread about "Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels"

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7525&st=0&p=78649entry78649 (see posts # 1 and # 3).

You did not get a reply to that post, but what you wrote got me to look up some of Elizabeth Barret Browning's poems on the internet and found I liked them very much.

So one can't really say that lack of feedback automatically equals lack of interest in what is written.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

my needs, when i stop or wind down conversation/posting - frequent enough feedback, responsiveness, intelligent support or critique = personal judgment call

> You also have to consider someone reading your stuff a year or more down the line. It is easy to access and look over all a poster's posts, especially if they haven't posted over 4000 times. [brant]

OK, good point. Except most of them from one, two, three years ago (even the best ones) seem to have died. I have the impression people don't do that, or if they do, they don't even bother to take a sec and say 'good post; good points' or comment any further. Not realizing that without feedback, people get discouraged. This is not just in reference to me, either. Bidinotto and some other good posters used to post a lot to Oist discussion lists. They simply went away in disgust.

I remember that whenever I saw a really superb post or article by B or by Tracinski, I would post something complimentary or add something supportive. But I seemed to be pretty alone in doing this. People would -much rather- find a nit to pick. Something to criticize gets their juices up.

> I think you got quite a few interesting replies, Phil, some of them pretty detailed (by Jeff Riggenbach and Jeffrey Smith). [Xray]

There was a tendency to reply to my long 'Willy and Me' story with "parallelism", rather than direct engagement with -any- of the many, many, many points I'd made: lists of Shakespeare books or movies -they- had seen. Display of one's own erudition. Pretty much ignoring, not finding relevant or commenting at all on any of the many details I had offerred --> the St. Crispin's day speech, Merchant of Venice, Pacino's performance and Shylock vs. Portia, how De Vito gave an example of good teaching, Mark Antony's speech as an example of turning skeptics around [Very, very relevant for Oists and libertarians - you would think someone would have picked up on that.]

And on a deeper level, my posts were less about giving my own Shakespeare laundry list but rather using that to illustrate the principle of learning and growing, changing one's mind. I even asked -twice- for feedback on that point ===>

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? Any major "awakenings".....#103 I was hoping that some readers could relate..in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' ...That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the..that reminds me type.

> Also keep in mind that people who don't actively post in the discussion may have read it too.

I don't like to write without good, solid, on topic -- feedback. This may not be necessary to you. It is to me. That's not the same as using my post as a launching pad for what they have to say, without actually commenting on my points. I've long wanted to be part of a vibrant, intelligent intellectual community. And even find people who can articulately express high level ideas that add to my knowledge. You may be different. I wrote an article for the librtarian academic journal, The Independent Review, on the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and their destructiveness. But they had no comments or letters venue.

To this day, I have no clue if people liked it or had new points for me to consider or have additional knowledge about Hobbes or think there are better examples than mine or if they can make a substantive criticism (as opposed to a nitpick).

Result: I've never even tried to write for them again.

Phil, I get the impression you are demanding some people here conform to a teacher/student paradigm with you as the teacher. The teacher talks up a topic and asks for class participation and feedback. This is somewhat off-putting. As for me I really couldn't give you much if any feedback because when the time was ripe my Mother broke her arm and I suddenly had no time. Six hours in the ER plus the extra attention she requires does that sort of thing. Regardless, you would have considerably helped your case if you had stated the price you expected to collect from the get go. Phil wants feedback would have stuck in my mind. I had merely indicated my desire to read it. I didn't tell you why I wanted to read it or that I would then have a conversation with you over the various content. Speaking more broadly and importantly, you seem to be constantly setting yourself up for victim-hood because people don't behave to your expectations. You never ask yourself if just maybe, Willy aside, your understanding of Objectivism for instance is some decades old, obsolete and stale. Orthodox Objectivism is just a way of keeping Leonard Peikoff in business. You, in a sense, are trying to compete with him, but that whole thing is a dead end. What really needs to be talked about is the Objectivist ethics versus human ethics generally as the latter now exist addressing the insufficiencies of both.

--Brant

Edited September 20, 2009 by Brant Gaede

[Selene]

Phil:

She makes some excellent constructive "critiques" which you should internalize.

"...the "letters to the editor" I have sent..." <<perhaps you could share one or two of them with us...xray

Adam

[Philip Coates]

Thanks, Xray...OK, I'm taking the knife down from my throat now...

> remember, it is the doing, the productive work, YOUR productive work, which is of importance - not whether or not others grasp it or appreciate it in the beginning...

Good advice, Robert, and a good reminder. I tend to get discouraged a lot.

....

Xray, your post #117 was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for when you mention a bit about your 'awakenings' regarding literature, philosophy, science. Thanks! Very interesting. [i gather that German is your native language.]

Edited September 20, 2009 by Philip Coates

[jriggenbach]

my needs, when i stop or wind down conversation/posting - frequent enough feedback, responsiveness, intelligent support or critique = personal judgment call

> You also have to consider someone reading your stuff a year or more down the line. It is easy to access and look over all a poster's posts, especially if they haven't posted over 4000 times. [brant]

OK, good point. Except most of them from one, two, three years ago (even the best ones) seem to have died. I have the impression people don't do that, or if they do, they don't even bother to take a sec and say 'good post; good points' or comment any further. Not realizing that without feedback, people get discouraged. This is not just in reference to me, either. Bidinotto and some other good posters used to post a lot to Oist discussion lists. They simply went away in disgust.

I remember that whenever I saw a really superb post or article by B or by Tracinski, I would post something complimentary or add something supportive. But I seemed to be pretty alone in doing this. People would -much rather- find a nit to pick. Something to criticize gets their juices up.

> I think you got quite a few interesting replies, Phil, some of them pretty detailed (by Jeff Riggenbach and Jeffrey Smith). [Xray]

There was a tendency to reply to my long 'Willy and Me' story with "parallelism", rather than direct engagement with -any- of the many, many, many points I'd made: lists of Shakespeare books or movies -they- had seen. Display of one's own erudition. Pretty much ignoring, not finding relevant or commenting at all on any of the many details I had offerred --> the St. Crispin's day speech, Merchant of Venice, Pacino's performance and Shylock vs. Portia, how De Vito gave an example of good teaching, Mark Antony's speech as an example of turning skeptics around [Very, very relevant for Oists and libertarians - you would think someone would have picked up on that.]

And on a deeper level, my posts were less about giving my own Shakespeare laundry list but rather using that to illustrate the principle of learning and growing, changing one's mind. I even asked -twice- for feedback on that point ===>

#90 Question: Has anyone had any experiences similar to what I described my "Willy and Me" essay -- going from hating Shakespeare to loving him? Any major "awakenings".....#103 I was hoping that some readers could relate..in some form to ways in which they started out in one direction in life and had a 'sea change' ...That's why my post(s) were so detailed, in order to spark remembrances of the..that reminds me type.

> Also keep in mind that people who don't actively post in the discussion may have read it too.

I don't like to write without good, solid, on topic -- feedback. This may not be necessary to you. It is to me. That's not the same as using my post as a launching pad for what they have to say, without actually commenting on my points. I've long wanted to be part of a vibrant, intelligent intellectual community. And even find people who can articulately express high level ideas that add to my knowledge. You may be different. I wrote an article for the librtarian academic journal, The Independent Review, on the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and their destructiveness. But they had no comments or letters venue.

To this day, I have no clue if people liked it or had new points for me to consider or have additional knowledge about Hobbes or think there are better examples than mine or if they can make a substantive criticism (as opposed to a nitpick).

Result: I've never even tried to write for them again.

Phil, I get the impression you are demanding some people here conform to a teacher/student paradigm with you as the teacher. The teacher talks up a topic and asks for class participation and feedback. This is somewhat off-putting. As for me I really couldn't give you much if any feedback because when the time was ripe my Mother broke her arm and I suddenly had no time. Six hours in the ER plus the extra attention she requires does that sort of thing. Regardless, you would have considerably helped your case if you had stated the price you expected to collect from the get go. Phil wants feedback would have stuck in my mind. I had merely indicated my desire to read it. I didn't tell you why I wanted to read it or that I would then have a conversation with you over the various content. Speaking more broadly and importantly, you seem to be constantly setting yourself up for victim-hood because people don't behave to your expectations. You never ask yourself if just maybe, Willy aside, your understanding of Objectivism for instance is some decades old, obsolete and stale. Orthodox Objectivism is just a way of keeping Leonard Peikoff in business. You, in a sense, are trying to compete with him, but that whole thing is a dead end. What really needs to be talked about is the Objectivist ethics versus human ethics generally as the latter now exist addressing the insufficiencies of both.

--Brant

People who know a little, but not a great deal, about a given subject often wish strongly to be acknowledged as more expert, more knowledgeable, in that subject area than they actually are.

JR

[Philip Coates]

Subject: benevolence in assessing people

Or they're trying to learn more and interact on the subject and that's what feedback helps with. People who wanted to appear as authorities or experts in literature would be unlikely to write a long series of posts on slow, foot-dragging awakening - how dumb they were for decades, how insensitive to Shakespeare, and how they are only in an early stage of exploring in many ways.

Tends to puncture the idea of my being an expert, or having long mastered everything.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Philip Coates

[ginny]

Unfortunately, Phil is like a needy three-year old. He wants attention, or else he'll throw a tantrum and threatens to run away from home. Problem is, he never runs away. He keeps staying and telling others were they are wrong.