Hello

[dougplumb]

Hello,

I am new to objectivism and am here after a long search for moral philosophy that makes sense to me after recognizing that we are in a moral crisis. I have a blog at www.dougplumb.blogspot.com

My background in this subject matter is only in interest. I have never taken a philosophy course but I have read bits of Plato, Aristotle, Rousseau, Neitzche, Strauss as well as a few others. I didn't understand Strauss. I thought Neitzche was great and probably misunderstood by many who talk about him. Plato's Republic floored me - I didn't agree with the philosophy but the last book is amazing considering it was written over 2000 years ago. I liked Rousseau but found him a little over my head in terms of reading level. My favorite philosophic essay is "In Praise of Idleness" by Bertrand Russell.

I read about half of Fountainhead and got bored with it - I understand what Rand is trying to say here, I started reading Atlas Shrugged and am about halfway through. This is a GREAT book and has solidified what I have come to learn since 9/11 and dealing with the Law Society of Upper Canada. I came to know that the money system, legal system and the policing in our country is totally corrupt and exists for the sole purpose of robbing honest people and pass the loot onto the robber barons.

I like everything I have heard and heard from Rand except her views on education. I believe the education should be funded via public vouchers that can be used at privately run schools. Education not only benefits the one being educated but the community at large as well. This is why I believe that the community should fund it. Education is critical to the survival of a community. Public education as we have it now is nothing more than masters teaching kids to be good slaves and nothing more. In science classes they actually teach that man made global warming is real - this shows me we live under a fascist regime. Its one example why education should never be under government control. Teachers should assist kids in learning, kids naturally love to learn. Our current crop of criminals destroy the love for learning to create dumb slaves to serve the world ruling elite - the owners of the Federal Reserve.

I always like criticism so don't be concerned about offending me. If you think one of my posts is idiotic, please say so.

[Chris Grieb]

Welcome Doug!

I will withhold criticism of your posts for one or two days.

I will also say that The Fountainhead is a great book. Atlas is a great book also.

[BaalChatzaf]

Hello,

I am new to objectivism and am here after a long search for moral philosophy that makes sense to me after recognizing that we are in a moral crisis. I have a blog at www.dougplumb.blogspot.com

My background in this subject matter is only in interest. I have never taken a philosophy course but I have read bits of Plato, Aristotle, Rousseau, Neitzche, Strauss as well as a few others. I didn't understand Strauss. I thought Neitzche was great and probably misunderstood by many who talk about him. Plato's Republic floored me - I didn't agree with the philosophy but the last book is amazing considering it was written over 2000 years ago. I liked Rousseau but found him a little over my head in terms of reading level. My favorite philosophic essay is "In Praise of Idleness" by Bertrand Russell.

I read about half of Fountainhead and got bored with it - I understand what Rand is trying to say here, I started reading Atlas Shrugged and am about halfway through. This is a GREAT book and has solidified what I have come to learn since 9/11 and dealing with the Law Society of Upper Canada. I came to know that the money system, legal system and the policing in our country is totally corrupt and exists for the sole purpose of robbing honest people and pass the loot onto the robber barons.

I like everything I have heard and heard from Rand except her views on education. I believe the education should be funded via public vouchers that can be used at privately run schools. Education not only benefits the one being educated but the community at large as well. This is why I believe that the community should fund it. Education is critical to the survival of a community. Public education as we have it now is nothing more than masters teaching kids to be good slaves and nothing more. In science classes they actually teach that man made global warming is real - this shows me we live under a fascist regime. Its one example why education should never be under government control. Teachers should assist kids in learning, kids naturally love to learn. Our current crop of criminals destroy the love for learning to create dumb slaves to serve the world ruling elite - the owners of the Federal Reserve.

I always like criticism so don't be concerned about offending me. If you think one of my posts is idiotic, please say so.

The current global warming is real. The question is: is the warming the result of human activity or is it driven by natural forces over which man has little or no control. At one time Greenland was ... green. So we have had periods in the past in which the earth was warmer than it is now. We have also had ice ages in the past. The moral of the story is the climate changes from time to time due to natural forces and processes.

What I find unscientific is the refusal of the Establishment to give due weight to natural causes for the current warming. There is evidence that the current warming trend is related to cloud formation which is driven by cosmic ray input into the upper atmosphere. See:

The Chilling Stars: The New Theory of Climate Change by Henrik Svensmark

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Doug,

Welcome to OL!

I skimmed through your blog and it looks like you have some very interesting takes on things. (I especially enjoyed your thoughts on colloidal silver since at one time I tried to use it, but couldn't separate the science from the crackpots from the pooh-poohers in general. So I gave up.)

I look forward to reading your posts.

Michael

[Selene]

Doug:

Indeed welcome. This is an excellent arena for thought and expression, but what I like about this forum is that we seem to play by NY City rules," no blood... no foul"! So watch yourself under the boards.

I liked your blog also.

Are you a Canadian? How did you come to be a "libertarian"? Are you comfortable with the current state of the Libertarian "Party" [for lack of a better term']?

Who directed you to Ayn or did you discover her yourself?

Finally, we will have some interesting discussions about education.

"In science classes they actually teach that man made global warming is real - this shows me we live under a fascist regime." <<<< I do not think that this follows at all from your premise.

Welcome.

Adam

[syrakusos]

Hello ...

Allow me add my own welcome.

Also, on the matter of colloidal silver. Years back, I did some reading and it appears that you take so much silver that your skin turns white, but with no other effects -- and when you stop taking it, it washes out and you go back to normal. I'm impressed.

[Alfonso Jones]

Doug -

Welcome to OL! I urge you to browse and read widely and post as you find things which interest you.

Bill P

[dougplumb]

Thank you for such warm welcomes. I've never been on a discussion group like this, there are a lot of good thinkers and no detectable trolls.

I see a lot of people have a philosophy background. That does impress me - when I took pure math in school I got about a "G" or "H" on my first few assignments. "G" stands for "Get out of my class". "H" stands for "Hello, are you awake". Although my prof liked me and knew I had respect for the subject the message was clear from the low marks. My prof explained that some people get it and some people do not, there are few average students. Maybe I didn't put enough time into it - I had seven other engineering classes.

When I read an axiom stating that "A is A" here, I wonder why it needs to be stated. I wonder if that stuff is part of some form of satanic brainwashing - or its just over my head. Satanism is taking over the planet and it comes from the man behind the curtain and it is infecting education as well as everything else.

As far as what I think of the libertarian party, I do not like organized parties. I would only vote for an independent. I have some experience with an organized party and believe it became populated with deconstructionists at the top. I have no experience with the libertarians, but I did meet them once during a meeting. I couldn't stay with them because they did not believe that 9/11 was an inside job - something I am 100% sure of.

As far as global warming goes, this is a perfect example of fascism - fascism is state control of the mind. Moussolini said that fascism occurs when governments and corporations unite, but I believe fascism is a mind thing. I have read a book called Political Ponerology and this was about the physical affects of fascism on the mind, these were discovered during autopsies in Poland in the 30's. PP is great book and there is a summary of it online. I have never found a clear definition of fascism, the one here is my own.

As far as "The Chilling Stars: The New Theory of Climate Change by Henrik Svensmark", there is also a movie called "Global Warming or Global Governance" by Michael Coffman posted on google for free viewing and this talks about the solar influence on cloud formation and climate. Another great reference on this is "The Open Conspiracy" by HG Wells.

If anyone here understands Strauss, I'm really interested.

[dougplumb]

BTW: I am Canadian, I come from southern Ontario and have lived in Toronto for the last 8 years up until recently when I moved to Marmora Ontario. I moved to save money and I miss Toronto and my activist friends at Toronto 9/11 Truth. I am a "conspiracy theorist" and I miss handing out free DVD's at Dundas Square on Saturdays.

[Chris Grieb]

Doug; Which event do you have a theory that is was a conspiracy. 9-11 was a conspiracy involving murderous Islamic fascist scum but I suspect you believe that 9-11 involves the US government. I like the Popular Mechanics report on 9-11. If you think my description is false you might think about what followers of Ben Laden did to Daniel Pearl.

Oswald acted alone. Look at Vincent Bugolisi's book if you can read.

I know I supposed to suffer fools gladly but in your case I'll make an exceptiohn

Edited May 15, 2009 by Chris Grieb

[DavidMcK]

[\quote]What I find unscientific is the refusal of the Establishment to give due weight to natural causes for the current warming. There is evidence that the current warming trend is related to cloud formation which is driven by cosmic ray input into the upper atmosphere. See:

The Chilling Stars: The New Theory of Climate Change by Henrik Svensmark

Ba'al Chatzaf

Thanks for the reference, if you go to Amazon you will find that some of the readers/commentators were kind enough to provide a compressed synopsis of the theory; fascinating!

Almost forgot: welcome Doug.

Edited May 15, 2009 by DavidMcK

[Selene]

Chris:

"Oswald acted alone."

This is debatable. I worked for two years on the "assassination committees". My approach was from a rational perspective and frankly, even though I disagreed with Jack Kennedy and was a Nixon worker in 1960, but he was still my President.

The one visual that does not comply with the "laws" of physics is Jack's head moving towards the alleged shooter, the famous or infamous "head shot". You recall that is was the resident vessel of evil Arlen Spectre, who as a young staff attorney came up with the "miracle bullet theory".

Finally, but not exhaustively, a professor at Queens who I knew (did not like him) did some sound echo tests on the Dallas motorcycle police officer's open mic tape and presented it the data to the House Assassinations Committee in, I believe 1968, which caused them to conclude that there was more than one shooter.

I think I will start a new thread later on "conspiracy theories" which will be inclusive of the 911/Kennedy - all three ??/and we can throw in the alleged pharmaceutical conspiracy that our new member Doug mentioned.

Adam

[dougplumb]

The house committee on the Kennedy Assassination concluded that this was a probable conspiracy.

The gun used could not have squeezed off that many shots that accurately in the allotted time. This has been shown by Jim Marrs. I don't read conspiracy books and prefer to look at the evidence on my own without an authors slant on things.

There was a tree in the way of the line of sight for the shot. Kennedies route was changed at the last minute. Unusual lax security measures were in place because of the change in route.

Kennedy was to print government notes rather than Fed notes (4 billion worth). This would be the motivation for the assassination as is often said to be the motive. The bankers are always associated with these assassinations. There are some great quotes given by bankers and past presidents regarding the private creation of fiat money.

The money is based on the good faith of the US citizenry and their ability to work for it. Why should it be created by private banks ? There is no reason for private banks creating fiat currency.

As far as 9/11 goes, check out ae911truth.org. I have started and participated in many very long 9/11 threads on discussion groups. I would be very happy to start one here, I'm afraid it would be off topic.

The popular mechanics book does not address the main issues of 9/11 conspiracies. It is full of what we call "straw man arguements" - PM creates an argument, says we are making that argument then debunks that arguement and says that they have debunked 9/11 conspiracy theories.

If you name one of their points, I will go through it and explain what they are doing.

[dougplumb]

"I think I will start a new thread later on "conspiracy theories" which will be inclusive of the 911/Kennedy - all three ??/and we can throw in the alleged pharmaceutical conspiracy that our new member Doug mentioned."

This would be great. A thread on Sustainable Development (another conspiracy) would be great too. So would Overpopulation....Oh no - you are going to get me going !

[dougplumb]

"Daniel Pearl"

He was dead when they decapitated him - no gushing blood during the decaptitation. Decapitiations involve streams of blood shooting 20 feet or so. There is no reason to believe those people were anyone - their faces were covered.

[Selene]

Doug:

Correct.

"The house committee on the Kennedy Assassination concluded that this was a probable conspiracy."

The primary reason that they had to conclude that it was a "probable conspiracy" was due to the un-refuted forensic evidence provided by the college professor that I knew.

It was "possible" to get the 3 shots off in the 5.--- seconds. I have done it with that weapon. The first round is already in the chamber. So it is bang, up, back forward down - bang and repeat.

It is just barely doable in those seconds. However, to hit with the alleged two out of three shots, with the last shot which had to be made within a one and one half (1 1/2) foot "hole" in the Elm tree.

However, that begs the question and the sonic forensics completely establishes that there were more than three shots and that at least one came from in front or front left or front right of the target.

Furthermore, one of the screws that hold the scope to the rifle was loose which caused it to not give a real true read of cross hairs on target spot.

Finally, the Italian Mannlicher Carcano rifle used by Oswald "...had the markings, “MADE ITALY”, “CAL.6.5”, “1940”, and the serial number C2766 (Warren Commission report pg. 81)."

So this assassin used a rifle that Italian soldiers called the "surrender weapon" because of its severely inaccurate delivery of shot to target. For example,

"Until 1938, all M91 rifles and carbines were chambered for the rimless 6.5x52mm Modello 1895 cartridge, using a round-nose metal case bullet of 160 grains weight at approximately 2,000-2,400 ft/s muzzle velocity, depending upon barrel length. At least one small arms authority noted inconsistencies in powder types in arsenal-loaded 6.5x52mm military ammunition, often with different powder types and ammunition lots intermixed within a single clip of ammunition.[1] The practice of intermixing powder types and ammunition lots in clipped rifle ammunition was generally avoided by arsenals of other nations, as it generally resulted in varying bullet velocities and excessive bullet dispersion on the target.

After reports of inadequate performance at both short and long ranges[2][3] during the campaigns in Italian North Africa (1924-1934), and Abyssinia (1934), the Italian army introduced a new short rifle in 1938, the Modello 1938, together with a new cartridge in 7.35x51mm caliber. In addition to the slightly larger caliber, Italian ordnance designers introduced a spitzer-type bullet for the new cartridge, with the tip filled with aluminum to produce an unstable (tumbling) projectile upon impact in soft tissue (a design most likely copied from the .303 British Mk VII bullet).

However, the Italian government was unable to successfully mass produce the new arms in adequate quantities before the onset of war, and in 1940, all rifle and ammunition production reverted to 6.5 mm, but no 7.35 mm Mod. 38 rifles nor carbines were ever re-barreled to the old 6.5x52mm caliber. Some Italian troops serving on the Russian front were armed with 7.35 mm Mod. 1938 rifles, but exchanged them in 1942 for 6.5 x 52 mm arms.[4]"

Trust me,

do not get me started on the JFK assassination lol!

Adam

[dougplumb]

I never did look into the Kennedy assassination in any depth, but I did look into the OKC bombing in some depth and studied 9/11 in great depth. I believe the story given wrt OKC and 9/11 are pure fabrications. No one has come up with a complete theory on how the buildings collapsed on 9/11, but they didn't fall from fires and structural damage from the planes. This is obvious from the evidence and past experience with fires at the WTC buildings. Unexploded bombs were in the OKC building and this was reported on local news that never made CNN (communist news network). See Alex Jones movie "9/11 Road To Tyranny" to see the footage of this. Its on Google video.

We should open a thread for these discussions IMO.

As far as Kennedy goes, I understood that 3 shots could be fired, but not aimed in that time period.

[Selene]

Correct as to the accuracy of the 3 shots, but that was incrementally increased by the shitty weapon that he "allegedly" brought that day. Curtain rods never made sense to me.

One serious segment that I came across that does make sense to me is that Oswald was a multiple agent.

Adam

[Chris Grieb]

Adam; I have lost all respect for you on the Kennedy assassination. Look at the Bugulosi book please.

[Selene]

Chris:

Don't get Catholic on me!

I have not seen that book, but will take a look.

No closed mind here.

Adam

[dougplumb]

Chris Grieb: "Oswald acted alone. Look at Vincent Bugolisi's book if you can read."

This kind of remark is typical from establishment story supporters. They always resort to insults and that has been my experience arguing about these things on the web for years. Its standard practice for establishment version supporters.

There is just no way the secret police would not keep a sharp shooter on an open window as the presidents motorcade drove by. Policy was to make sure all windows were shut to prevent assassinations. The whole official version of the Kennedy assassination is as rediculous as the one for the OKC bombing, 9/11 and the USS Cole. They fall apart at first glance.

Yeah - security would allow an unmarked, unknown vehicle to park beside a war ship.

As far as Bugolisi's book goes, I won't buy it. I'll look at it if someone gives it to me and getting it requires an absolute zero effort on my part. I bought the 9/11 commission book and actually read the first 30 or so pages of it before I was sickened by the nonsense and fairy tale about the terrorist mastermind Usama Bin Laden.

Does anyone seriously think this government is putting cameras up all over the place including in the bathrooms of little boys and little girls in their schools to protect us from a terrorist mastermind ? No, its about humiliation. Humiliation is used to break the people and make them easier to rule. That is why the official version stories are so laughable - they don't even try to make their story sound real. A book called Political Ponerology explains how this humiliation results in physical side effects on the brain that retard logical thought.

[Chris Grieb]

When I attended Basic Principles of Objectivism the first thing I learned was I don't have to prove a negative.

The Secret Service has acknowledged that they became lax up till the JFK assassination.

Shots come from only one place and one direction, the 6th floor of the Texas School Book depository. No shots have been shown coming from any other place.

The Marris book which you mentioned was used by Jim Garrison in his investigation. The trial ended of Clay Shaw ended in a not guilty forty-five minutes after the jury got the case.

On another note my hope for you and Selene is that you never have to deal with a rouge prosecutor like Jim Garrison or Mike Nifong

I would point out on 9-11 that Bin Laden took credit for 9-11.

[BaalChatzaf]

I would point out on 9-11 that Bin Laden took credit for 9-11.

That could have been a false claim by which bin Laden promotes his image as the ueber Jihad Chief.

I do not subscribe to the "Reichstag theories" of 9/11 by any means, but just because bin Laden made a clain, it does not mean it is true.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Gentlemen:

I already sense, see and feel the defensive positions that both of you are committed to in the verbal edges of your "arguments".

"Shots come from only one place and one direction, the 6th floor of the Texas School Book depository. No shots have been shown coming from any other place."

This is flatly incorrect. There is not only amply testimony by folks who have hunted, military and law enforcement personal in the plaza at the time of the shooting who have testified that they thought that they heard shots come from another direction.

This is unchallenged personal testimony some of whom were interviewed by the Commission and some by non-commission personal. Is this a correct statement gentleman? Yes or No?

Secondly, there is the forensic evidence that caused the Assassination Committee [circa 1968] to conclude that there was more than one shooter.

Now, neither is conclusive, but would a properly empaneled jury be able to convict Oswald as the lone deranged gunman of so many versions of the event?

Finally, is much of what you base your quite strong statements about the 1963 assassination based on the Neutron Activation Analysis results or on the sheer weight of the documentation in Bugolisi's book or both or neither?

Adam

[DavidMcK]

There was a discover channel investigation of the 'magic' bullet recently broadcast, and a sharpshooter replicated the exact shot (using dummies) as the Oswald shot, using a platform 6 stories and behind the limousine. It matched the evidence exactly (including blood splatter).