Hello

[dougplumb]

"I would point out on 9-11 that Bin Laden took credit for 9-11"

Bin Laden made the statement that he had no involvement about 3 weeks after the incident, then a while after that some guy that doesn't even look like bin Laden (look at the nose) was recorded with a camcorder and later broadcast on CNN. Somehow they lost the audio.

The claim is that this was bin Laden talking about 9/11. I say it was some random Arab talking about what they were to have dinner that night. I have just as much evidence as they do in supporting my claim. Zip.

[Selene]

There was a discover channel investigation of the 'magic' bullet recently broadcast, and a sharpshooter replicated the exact shot (using dummies) as the Oswald shot, using a platform 6 stories and behind the limousine. It matched the evidence exactly (including blood splatter).

Yes, I have seen the show and it has added the probability that a "sharpshooter" and now we get into the realm of definitions "...replicated the exact shot...", which I am sure we would agree that there is, by definition, no possible way to effect that operation. However, they eliminated a number of the "conspiracy buffs" more ludicrous arguments.

Oswald was an adequate Marine marksman which means that he was a good shot. However, the "sharpshooter" had the scope solidly affixed and had been able to practice the shot.

If I remember correctly, the sharpshooter established that the "fatal" head shot could have been made. There was never any dispute about that.

Adam

[DavidMcK]

Ok, your right; it wasn't the exact shot but had a plethora of similarities to the one supposed to have been taken by Oswald.

[Selene]

David:

I have a pretty good track record on statements, lol.

In all seriousness, the assassination of JFK just flat out did not make sense to me the day it happened.

As I was watching TV when Cronkite broke into the quiz show I just sensed that the world was about to change and it did.

Myself and 4 of my football team mates went to Washington for his funeral with one of my friend's parents.

I was listening to the news on a hand held portable radio, when the report came in that Ruby shot Oswald.

Standing on that frigid parade route, I was watching the riderless horse with the boots reversed in an empty saddle approach and I took

the radio away from my ear and stared at it.

A veteran standing next to me realized that something dramatic had happened and I held the radio up to him, as if he could "see" what I just

heard, and I said, "They shot Oswald!"

He put his arm on my shoulder, shook his head and said, "I don't think even prayer is going to get us out of this one!"

I have not seen a convincing case that would cause me as a juror to convict Oswald as the assassin. The sole assassin absolutely not.

I am stating this with the high standards of evidence that would be required to convict a person of assassinating a chief of state who was also a person.

Adam

Edited May 16, 2009 by Selene

[Chris Grieb]

Selene; Vincent Bugolsi took part in a trial sponsored by the BBC. Bugolsi was the prosecutor Gary Spence was the defense attorney. I think Spence would have been a much better attorney than Oswald could have gotten. The verdict was guilty.

I think the House Committee did good work. I find their acoustic evidence to be a very thin gruel. The Committee did a good job of disposing of Umbrella Man and the hobo's.

I must add that one of best comments about the JFK assassination was made by Clay Shaw who is reported to have said that if he was involved in a conspiracy he would have gotten better conspirators than Lee Oswald or Jack Ruby.

Are you a defender of Jim Garrison who deserves the fate of the regicides in England of be dug up and hanged.

If their are OL readers would want light rather heat the JFK assassination web pages are very good.

A small point about Bin Laden being the doer. I am reminded of what George "Bugs" Moran said after the St Valentine's Day Massacre only Capone kills like that. I would make the same statement about 9-11 only changing the name to Bin Laden.

[Selene]

Chris:

I noticed that you obviously overlooked answering my specific question to you, but that is probably because you are

extremely convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald was the single, lone assassin who decided to kill JFK because......why?

"Are you a defender of Jim Garrison who deserves the fate of the regicides in England of be dug up and hanged."

No and although I love Costner films, the movie sucked.

Furthermore, both prosecutorial discretion and agenda driven prosecutorial offices should be indicted.

I never saw the BBC trial and will try to find it because that would be of interest to me.

However, you raise a great point as to the prosecutorial system which directly relates to our Constitution and our unalienable

rights:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?d...p;fs=true"

It is 12 minutes long, but penetrating, powerful and persuasive.

Adam

[dougplumb]

Chris: "I am reminded of what George "Bugs" Moran said after the St Valentine's Day Massacre only Capone kills like that. I would make the same statement about 9-11 only changing the name to Bin Laden."

You have to be seriously kidding here. We killed like that in World War 2 - innocent German populations in Dresden while Rockefeller sold the Germans oil and gave them synthetic rubber. David Rockefeller was in the war fighting for our side until he was suddenly called back to Washington before his entire unit was wiped out. This was in his auto-biography. He also admits to contributing to the "New World Order" in his autobiography.

As far as "killing like that" Think about this:

a. burning civilians alive with white phosphorus in Iraq

b. fluoridated water

c. vaccines (many doctors say the purpose of vaccines is depopulation)

d. ritualistic/satanic child sacrifices. (challenge me on this one)

e. killing innocent Afghans to further the drug trade

f. experimenting on US veterans (Tuskegey experiments)

g. the war in the Congo that no one knows about

h. the war in Haiti - what did they ever do to us ?

i. anthrax killings after 9/11 to scare congress into signing the Patriot Act (supposedly)

j. the various witnesses to the Kennedy assassinations died in disproportional numbers - usually be vehicular homicide. That is how they like to assassinate people - real messy.

...it sickens me to go on but I could go all the way to z then count from 0 to 10

They are going to kill you too Chris. It doesn't matter how much you want to support them and love them and worship them. The Stalinist purges had everyone below colonel exterminated. You are obviously in the military or police to buy the propaganda to that extent.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Doug Plumb

[Selene]

Doug:

I do not have the time to take 95% of your undocumented assertions apart, so, just like Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music, we will begin at the very beginning.

Dresden:

"...innocent German populations in Dresden." << your country goes to war and 1) you go to work, 2) you are not part of the underground and therefore. 3) you are part of the war effort.

Basic rule, innocent people get killed and maimed in war. Deal with it.

"An eye-witness account

Photograph of Lothar with his sister

Since the facts of the combined USAF and RAF raids on Dresden became known, mostly through the novel 'Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut, there has been great controversy as to why this appalling raid was considered necessary.

The city had no military targets to speak of, and it was known that it was packed with civilian refugees from the east. Here is an eye-witness account by Lothar (shown here with his sister), just nine years old, who survived.

It was February. 13th, 1945. I lived with my mother and sisters (13, 5 and 5 months old twins) in Dresden and was looking forward to celebrating my 10th birthday February l6th. My father, a carpenter, had been a soldier since 1939 and we got his last letter in August 1944. My mother was very sad to receive her letters back with the note: "Not to be found." We lived in a 3 room flat on the 4th floor in a working class region of our town. I remember celebrating Shrove Tuesday (February 13th) together with other children, The activities of the war in the east came nearer and nearer. Lots of soldiers went east and lots of refugees went west through our town or stayed there, also in the air raid night February13th/14th."

There is more to this story, but suffice it to say these folks would fall under the category of "innocent civilians"...Yes.

This is from Wikipedia:

"Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city, and according to the RAF at the time, the largest remained unbombed built-up area.[28] Taylor writes that an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with material.[29]

But historian Sonke Neitzel wrote in 2006, 'The industrial plants of Dresden played no significant role in German war industry at this stage of the war'.[30]"

Now, here is so information that belies the story from the "innocent" German civilian.

"The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[31] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[32] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, and hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[33]

The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[34] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[34] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[35]

An RAF memo issued to airmen on the night of the attack said:

'Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed built up area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas. At one time well known for its china, Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance ... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front ... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.[36] '

In the raid, major industrial areas in the suburbs, which stretched for miles, were not targeted.[5] According to Donald Miller 'the economic disruption would have been far greater had Bomber Command targeted the suburban areas where most of Dresden's manufacturing might was concentrated'[37]"

Therefore, we are supposed to even entertain your pansy metro-sexual concept of war and the American fighting man and hold back, second guess and perform all the altruistic bullshit to condemn my country and the soldiers that keep me free to have this conversation with you.

And I am supposed to actually take you seriously.

Let me start at the beginning, just like you were a child learning the scales.

America is a good and great country.

America was attacked both at Pearl Harbor and my city on September 11th 2001. My fellow NYer's were killed. They were not killed by my government and if they were, I would want to hunt down and kill each and every one of those involved.

Adam

Edited May 16, 2009 by Selene

[dougplumb]

Selene: "America is a good and great country."

Have you ever heard of major General Smedley Butler ? Butler was supposed to do the same thing to America that Hitler was doing in Germany. You can find lots of info on Butler on the web. Butler came out and refused- it was broadacst on TV, you can find it on You-Tube. Funmny how history students haven't heard this.

Anything on that list can be easily researched on the web. Look into Fluoride - its diabolical. Once you learn about sodium fluoride then everything else pales in comparison. Do a search for "The Finders". I have the PDF file report on satanic child molestation and environmentalism from Ted Gunderson (ex FBI head of 800 agents), I can send it to you. Canada is one of the top destinations for pedophiles - #3 on the UN website. Canada is the USA, we are under the North American Union. Politicians and borders are made for TV.

Please don't tell me you are a doctor and you know that fluoride is safe.

Have you heard of Major Jordans Diaries ?

Why is it that all officers from all countries have similar uniforms - stars on them ?

If America is so good, why is it that they allow the Rockefellers to profit from both sides of WW2 ?

Americans are good people, Canadians are good people. But Canada inc. and the USA inc are far from good countries. They are examples of what happens when business and government unite.

The wars were excuses to build up the police state. War changes a country more in 5 years than 50 years of peace - Carrol Quigley. Ever heard of Anthony Suttons book "The Best Enemy Money Can Buy" ?

This whole thing is like a map, find a map with a big country written across it then tell someone to look at the map and find a small town with that name without telling them the name of the country - they will not find the name because its too big and right in front of them. Same with what is happening wrt world government. Its been in place since the late 40's early 50's as the UN.

[dougplumb]

"They were not killed by my government and if they were, I would want to hunt down and kill each and every one of those involved."

Its been proven that the fires and airplanes did not collapse the buildings. Its easy to see this. I can prove this.

There is a strong circumstantial evidence that the US gov did 9/11.

Check out Patriots for 9/11 truth - see who agrees with me. You will be impressed by this list. Check out the military section..., engineers section, physics section...

Check out www.ae911truth.org

This is being hidden from you.

[Selene]

Doug:

So essentially, you seeing "...a whole team of psychiatrists..." <<see Field of Dreams.

Why don't you take a few deep anti-psychotic breaths - pick one subject and let's work through just one.

Dresden - you respond with nothing but further pronouncements about other conspiracies.

Let's stick to Dresden.

Then you can pick just one from your list and we will tackle that one.

Adam

[dougplumb]

wrt Dresden, why was Rockefeller permitted to fund both sides of the war ?

If you invited me over to your place then one day left a 10 dollar bill on your counter on purpose to see if I was a thief, then the 10 bucks was gone, could I say to you - "but you don't know that I stole anything on those other 13 days", so am I a thief or not ?

If just one of those things I list is true then USA is a bad country. There is very strong evidence and piles of public supporters that believes any one of those things are true.

We could debate Dresden from now until next Tuesday, neither one of us were there and the evidence is long gone, wiki lies all the time. Both of us would be pissing in the wind and neither one would be convinced of the others opinion.

What we can do is debate fluoride, 9/11, the OKC bombings, The Finders report, Afghanistan drug trade...anything more recent where the trail may be a little hotter.

You saying "start with the fact that America is a good country" is not objectivist thinking.

BTW: I have had enough people tell me to go see a psychiatrist regarding all this stuff. I did. He said I was fine (a real prescribing psyc that didn't prescribe anything for me), he complimented me on my awareness and did say that he did not believe ALL of the things I was saying were true. Naturally doctors have a little trouble with the vaccines. Check out Dr. Stan Monteith, Dr. Rima Laibow.

[dougplumb]

I'll look at your response tomorrow. If you are on your PC tonight, check out:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=35...&q=fluoride

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...luoridation.htm

[Selene]

Doug:

Much better. So we will bury Dresden and its Nazis and move forward.

I agree to your sequence.

First stop is fluoride.

The John Birch Society was really strong on this in the 50's when the first trials were proposed.

I will be fair and explore those links.

Thanks.

Adam

[dougplumb]

Dr. Stan Monteith of radioliberty.com has some excellent interviews with other doctors on fluoride.

I suggest you just stick with other doctors as well as toxicologists who have looked at this in great detail and can explain it in a way that other doctors can know where to look further better than non doctors. I am no expert in fluoridation, I am expert on 9/11.

Thanks for trying to be so objective. I do not believe that human beings can be objective. I think Ayn Rand is right on, so I am trying to see if I can prove her wrong in the practical sense. My hypothesis is that humans cannot be truly objective when they are comfortable.

[Chris Grieb]

Selene; I am going to withdraw from this discussion. Doug needs to find a quiet place where he can lay down. It is would also be a very good idea to take any sharp pointed objects away from him.

Doug; At 65 I am not worried about anyone killing me. I have also been vaccinated.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Chris Grieb

[dougplumb]

So Chris, you can't really be objective when it becomes difficult. You must resort to insult.

There is nothing that I have listed that [a] Thousands or hundreds of thousands, sometime millions of people do not share the belief. There is not ample evidence, often outright admitted to by governments.

You must know that man made global warming is a hoax. If they would do this to collect carbon taxes, what wouldn't they do ?