tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Dear General, come on. Someone tosses acid in your eyes, blinds and disfigures you for life, and you sit around in a circle. Now that I can totally disagree with. I hope you have a Plan B.GinnyI hope YOU have a plan B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 I'll stick with Plan A - justice. It actually works.Ginny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I'll stick with Plan A - justice. It actually works.GinnyYou think so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 because we are free and individualsSo you are violent because you are free to be so? Well, congratulations. Being a non-free person I guess I am hopelessly stuck in my desire to live a peaceful life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 G.S.Sure you are until the bully knocks on your door, or your daughters door. I am reasonably certain you would not use violence when they come to your neighbors door, by the way that is us violent Americans, but then again, you have it easy, you get to live your peaceful life because you hide behind your uncles apron strings.That uncle being Sam.I do not respect a neighbor who does not even say thank you for saving their asses from Soviet Communist domination, let alone Fascist domination, but at least you had serious skin in the Nazi deal.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 because we are free and individualsSo you are violent because you are free to be so? Well, congratulations. Being a non-free person I guess I am hopelessly stuck in my desire to live a peaceful life.Made possible by the warriors who put their lives on the line so you could live at peace. The peace of the many was bought by the violence of a few. You sleep at night in safety because muscular men guard your slumber.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 G.S. Be careful, you are pissing off two evil violent hostile canine sharpened American wolves and we are sizing up the terrain! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) General, do I read your post as meaning you think justice does NOT work? Edited February 20, 2009 by ginny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 General, do I read your post as meaning you think justice does NOT work?Correct, I think it is in a pretty pitiful state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 G.S. Be careful, you are pissing off two evil violent hostile canine sharpened American wolves and we are sizing up the terrain! lolI'm not too worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 How about instead of ONLY violent retaliation or ONLY retraining and healing, we use both, but we use them with balance and context? And even though it is not very Objectivist to say it, why not also use them with a little mercy thrown in when authentic remorse is detected in the perpetrator of a violent crime? (I mean remorse at performing the illegal and evil act, not the remorse usually produced by getting caught.)I don't understand why this issue has to be either-or, either retribution or correction. In some specific cases, I can see either-or. In others, I think it is perfectly possible to have both retribution and correction where reasonable. For as faulty as our prison and corrections system is here in the USA, I see an attempt to go in this direction.I think this is the best option for dealing with a bad situation.Our entire governmental system is based on checks and balances (or it is supposed to be, at least). People still get wrongly punished and scumbags still get off scot-free, but in in the penal area it mostly works and works well. For criminal law, it beats the hell out of Sharia (to use the other popular system that started this discussion), that's for sure.It is no secret that I lean hard in the direction of benevolence. But once in a while, like the poor lady with acid thrown in her eyes in a premeditated evil act performed out of spite, the punishment meted out in the Sharia system looks pretty darn good.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 Of course benevolence has its place and should be the first option most of the time. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But for a really cruel act where there is no remorse, I still maintain sitting in a circle and discussing our lamentable childhood and hurt feelings is nonsense.Ginny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 What message do we send our children when we sanction the same violence that the victim received?GS,The message is simple. Don't throw acid in the eyes of an innocent person. This will not be tolerated in our society.I like that message. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Michael:I also am not making this an either or and I am more interested in how we could make a dispute resolution system for most disputes.It is when you get to the "hard" crimes that everyone in the society or in the "potential" society [where everyone is on the same page]. Penology has tried various models and mixtures of treatments.Tocqueville was dispatched to the US to study our prison system by the French government in the late 1830's. Coventry has always been an option that I argued for in Randian, libertarian and anarcho capitalist groups.Shunning, banishment and ostracism works in closed communities, but I think it might also be a good reformation tool, e.g., shunning would mean that the convicted would go to work and produce and no one would talk to him or acknowledge him and he would have to bear that 24 hrs per day. I think that this perpetrator should be this woman's slave, that he be hooded [meaning blinded by a hood] every moment that he does not have to work to repay her.I would also like him to be caged at night, by the woman at the local cage center which might be open for public viewing 24 hours per day, wherein he could sit in silence, blind and ponder what he did.Then, when the lady has decided that he, or she has changed, she can release him and only she can release him.Seems like that would be a sentencing option I would consider and offer to both parties.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Michael:I also am not making this an either or and I am more interested in how we could make a dispute resolution system for most disputes.It is when you get to the "hard" crimes that everyone in the society or in the "potential" society [where everyone is on the same page]. Penology has tried various models and mixtures of treatments.Tocqueville was dispatched to the US to study our prison system by the French government in the late 1830's. Coventry has always been an option that I argued for in Randian, libertarian and anarcho capitalist groups.Shunning, banishment and ostracism works in closed communities, but I think it might also be a good reformation tool, e.g., shunning would mean that the convicted would go to work and produce and no one would talk to him or acknowledge him and he would have to bear that 24 hrs per day. I think that this perpetrator should be this woman's slave, that he be hooded [meaning blinded by a hood] every moment that he does not have to work to repay her.I would also like him to be caged at night, by the woman at the local cage center which might be open for public viewing 24 hours per day, wherein he could sit in silence, blind and ponder what he did.Then, when the lady has decided that he, or she has changed, she can release him and only she can release him.Seems like that would be a sentencing option I would consider and offer to both parties.AdamI glad to hear that you would consider something besides an eye for an eye. You know they are doing 'sentencing circles' for more serious crimes in both the US and Canada. In these cases an actual judge is involved.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/courts...ing-cricles.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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