Anarchy in Greece

[mattZA]

Hey all,

Wasn't sure from where exactly to start this topic, but was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on the recent protests, attacks on police and businesses, and general vandalism that's cropped up in the last week in Greece (and is now spreading to other European countries like Italy, France etc)?

The press here in Athens has attributed this to a number of reasons beyond the shooting of a 15-year old boy last Saturday. General dissatisfaction with the ruling party and it's recent spate of corruption scandals and the meddling of the Orthodox Church in state affairs. Would be curious to know what Ayn Rand would make of all this given her views on the separation of state from both economy and religion. From the events of the past week, is apparent she was definitely onto something...

Matthew

[Brant Gaede]

Hey all,

Wasn't sure from where exactly to start this topic, but was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on the recent protests, attacks on police and businesses, and general vandalism that's cropped up in the last week in Greece (and is now spreading to other European countries like Italy, France etc)?

The press here in Athens has attributed this to a number of reasons beyond the shooting of a 15-year old boy last Saturday. General dissatisfaction with the ruling party and it's recent spate of corruption scandals and the meddling of the Orthodox Church in state affairs. Would be curious to know what Ayn Rand would make of all this given her views on the separation of state from both economy and religion. From the events of the past week, is apparent she was definitely onto something...

Unemployed youth? Fruit of the welfare state?

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Hey all,

Wasn't sure from where exactly to start this topic, but was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on the recent protests, attacks on police and businesses, and general vandalism that's cropped up in the last week in Greece (and is now spreading to other European countries like Italy, France etc)?

The press here in Athens has attributed this to a number of reasons beyond the shooting of a 15-year old boy last Saturday. General dissatisfaction with the ruling party and it's recent spate of corruption scandals and the meddling of the Orthodox Church in state affairs. Would be curious to know what Ayn Rand would make of all this given her views on the separation of state from both economy and religion. From the events of the past week, is apparent she was definitely onto something...

Matthew

The fact that the unfortunate death of one youngster can set off a week of violence throughout a country, indicates how unstable things are in Greece. Greece has oscillated between military juntas, fascist regimes and socialist regimes. I am sure Plato would not have been surprised at what is going on in 'ellas.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

The Greeks seem to be suffering from a very long period of bad government with different names. New boss is the same as the old boss.

[mattZA]

The Greeks seem to be suffering from a very long period of bad government with different names. New boss is the same as the old boss.

`

Sure. The shooting of the the teenager in an area largely regarded as an anarchist stronghold was merely a trigger for what erupted during the last week (and is still continuing in some places).

The ruling party has been involved in a number of corruption scandals and many of the higher rank members are involved in private business enterprises (whilst, obviously, most of the lower ranking or regional-level members are as well) and a number of dubious practises have come to the surface through the press. The party has also done some deals with the church involving land exchanges etc.

Whilst nobody disputes that the former ruling party (which was in power for around 20 years) was not involved in similar activities, there was nowhere near the same level of exposure, and this will probably lead to them being brought back into government. And so Greece keeps going around in circles - put politicians in who are corrupt just until their corruption is exposed, then boot them out and bring in the next group and see how long they can last without a series of scandals that is considered intolerable.

The current PM, Karamanlis, is adamant that he will not step down and he refuses to involve the military to quell any of the violence. Thus, his inability, or even refusal, to enforce civil law and provide safety for citizens and business owners renders him redundant. His preference, however, is to remain in government, despite a tarnished legacy thus preventing his party from being removed from government and not completing a term for the second time (the first being in the early 90s). A vote of no-confidence in parliament, of course, is one option, but as his party hold the majority of seats (only just, though) it's a little like turkeys voting for Christmas.

What is astonishing is that, in a European country, in 2008, the electorate and the elected still cannot grasp the necessity of separating state from church and economy. The events of the past week, IMHO, are deeply rooted in the intrinsic link between these in Greece, and this type of reaction will continue to flare up until the separation is enforced by the constitution.

Just my two-pence worth

[mattZA]

Unemployed youth? Fruit of the welfare state?

--Brant

Most definitely. And those who are unemployed are grossly exploited in terms of salary and working conditions given that that the jobless numbers are so high. All very Dickensian.

[Chris Grieb]

The United States and most of the world has not separated the state and the economy. Much of the world has separated church and state.

Unemployed young people is direct product of the welfare state and minimum wage laws. There were reports in the US summer jobs decreased as a result of the minimum wage increase.

[mattZA]

The United States and most of the world has not separated the state and the economy. Much of the world has separated church and state.

Unemployed young people is direct product of the welfare state and minimum wage laws. There were reports in the US summer jobs decreased as a result of the minimum wage increase.

Greece is not much of a welfare state. Unemployment benefits are laughable and expire after six months. There isn't an incentive to be unemployed in Greece like there is in the UK.

Greek politicians have a reputation for cronyism and, from that respect, business and state policy are dangerously intertwined. One may recall the fires that took place in Greece during summer, 2007. When looking at where the fires were started, one will notice that these were in prime vacation real estate development areas, and the fires were dressed up as either "acts of vandalism" or "acts of nature", when, finally, it transpired that there was something far more organized behind the whole saga. A week or two after the fires, the TV stations and newspapers (funded largely by politicians) stopped reporting on the matter altogether.

The Orthodox Church does carry a lot of weight in the Greek government and can, to a large extent, dictate certain policies. One could even go so far as to say that it can determine the outcome of an election through its influence on the "flock". For this reason, politicians dance to the church's tune whenever necessary in order to maintain favour. Only a few years ago, a law requiring the declaration of religion on official identification documents was revoked. This was considered to be a very progressive move on the part of the state. Am certain that Greece is not alone with respect to the government's relationship with the church. There's Russia, most of the Balkan states, Italy, Poland, Ukraine etc etc

[HelenG]

The Greeks seem to be suffering from a very long period of bad government with different names. New boss is the same as the old boss.

There is a small let's say problem, I don't actually believe that is a problem, I believe it is in our DNA

We love to complain, lot's of words but no actions.

We love to dispute and get all upset and use bad language but at the end of the day we sleep very well at night because we simply blame all the others about everything and never ourselves ;)

We complain about all the wrong things happening here and we sure "suffer" a lot, and yes we DO spend lot's of hours at coffee shops discussing about these terrible things. But also we buy every day new shoes and dresses because on the weekend we have to attend the best venue, with our brand new car and show of about our welfare, which of course is excellent.

Deep inside I believe that is a routine for us and if somebody changes something then we simply don't like it.

Edited December 18, 2008 by HelenG

[mattZA]

The Greeks seem to be suffering from a very long period of bad government with different names. New boss is the same as the old boss.

There is a small let's say problem, I don't actually believe that is a problem, I believe it is in our DNA

We love to complain, lot's of words but no actions.

We love to dispute and get all upset and use bad language but at the end of the day we sleep very well at night because we simply blame all the others about everything and never ourselves ;)

We complain about all the wrong things happening here and we sure "suffer" a lot, and yes we DO spend lot's of hours at coffee shops discussing about these terrible things. But also we buy every day new shoes and dresses because on the weekend we have to attend the best venue, with our brand new car and show of about our welfare, which of course is excellent.

Deep inside I believe that is a routine for us and if somebody changes something then we simply don't like it.

Are you by any chance Greek, Helen?

[BaalChatzaf]

Are you by any chance Greek, Helen?

Is Helen from Sparta or Troy?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I have had a most frustrating morning searching for a book by an author named Frank O'Connor. I want to relate a story about Greece I read in it, but I can't find the author on Google to save my life.

This is not the same Frank O'Connor as the famous Irish author (who is all over Google). The guy I mean was a magazine publisher in Europe after WWI. I got his autobiography in a used bookstore in Brazil because he bore the same name as Rand's husband. Unfortunately, I left the book behind.

This Frank O'Connor certainly had nothing in common with the other Frank O'Connors. He was a complete dog with women. He slept with about half of Europe's upper class women. After WWI, he got it into his head that hatred had been the root of that atrocity, so it was a time for a moral revolution, a time for love. In discussing the Bible, he threw out Paul (who he considered to be a stuck up malicious prude) and stayed only with the gospels. To him, Jesus was love. His thing was love in all its forms, including sex.

He also thought spreading the love was a great idea. As a major change in morals was due, it needed concrete expression. So he wrote a multi-volume autobiography spreading lots and lots and lots of love. (I read the consolidated paperback version.)

This book generated countless lawsuits because he named the women he had slept with, many of whom were married to Europe's rich and powerful, and he described in detail how he seduced them (or vice-versa), the shape and size of their genetilia, the noises and gestures they made during sex (in great detail), the ruses they used on their husbands, the rather strange contraception measures he made the women undergo, etc. He totally scandalized Europe at the time.

The book is a hoot. I find it really curious that it is so hard to find on the Internet now.

But the autobiography was not only about these things. O'Connor also told a lot of entertaining anecdotes. One was about Greece. He said the story was true and it put a humorous light on one aspect of the Greek character, but I am not so sure. I have been unable to find the story anywhere else. I will recount it from memory. If anyone discovers it later, please let me know. The wording will probably not be the same but the essence will be. At any rate, I think it is cute.

At the turn of the century or the early 1900's, a British arms manufacturer sent a representative to talk to the King of Greece and his Cabinet to sell them some British arms. (I don't remember which King, but King George I tickles a vague memory.) On the day of the appointment, the British representative sat down at a huge table beside the King with all the Ministers present. He gave his spiel and was told that they would consider it. During his spiel, in perfect British form, he took out a pocket watch to keep an eye on the time so he would not run over.

This pocket watch was an heirloom he had received from his grandfather. It had been made in the early 1800's and was quite striking. The King eyed it, found it interesting and asked to look at it. The representative was only too happy to hand the watch to him and tell him the story behind it, how old it was, how priceless it was these days, some details, etc.

As the King was about to return the watch, the Minister on his other side asked to look at it. The King looked at the representative, who nodded his assent, then handed it to the Minister. After the Minister looked at it, the one next to him also wanted to see it and so on. Thus the watch was slowly handed from one Minister to the other along the table.

As the meeting drew to a close, the representative delicately reminded the King of the watch, since he had not received it back. The King asked who had it and there was silence. This became a very embarrassing moment, especially as this meeting was held by the rulers of Greece to discuss a major arms purchase and among them was possibly a petty thief.

Suddenly the King announced, "One of you gentlemen must have put the watch in your pocket by mistake and are now too embarrassed to take it out in front of everyone. This is understandable. So look at the table by the door, the one with the bull clock on it. We shall turn the lights off. Then as we go out the door, the gentleman who inadvertently put the watch in his pocket may simply place it beside the bull clock on the way out and no one will know who made the mistake."

All agreed on the deep wisdom of the King, including the representative. They made a big show of expressing this. There was great contentment all round that such a tricky moment had been so artfully sidestepped.

The lights were turned off and the King, Ministers and British representative filed out slowly through the door. When the lights were turned back on, not only was the watch not on the table, the bull clock was also missing.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Try eBay

--Brant

[HelenG]

Are you by any chance Greek, Helen?

Is Helen from Sparta or Troy?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes I am Greek and I live in Athens

...

Ba'al Chatzaf Helen from Sparta and Helen from Troy are the same person.

[Backlighting]

Are you by any chance Greek, Helen?

Is Helen from Sparta or Troy?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes I am Greek and I live in Athens

...

Ba'al Chatzaf Helen from Sparta and Helen from Troy are the same person.

Helen, I spent honeymoon time in Athens and Mykonos.

Ah, the weather like S. Calif., the lamb kabob, fresh figs and wine. You brought back good times.

[HelenG]

Helen, I spent honeymoon time in Athens and Mykonos.

Ah, the weather like S. Calif., the lamb kabob, fresh figs and wine. You brought back good times.

I'm glad I did Las Vegas... For occasions like that is a very nice place.

While I was in UK lot's of people were saying to me about their memories of Greece with happiness, to be honest if you live in a place for your entire life you don't get to see sometimes the good things.

Tourism now is a bit more expensive than it was in the past. In general is a very beautiful country but with a bit wild prices sometimes.

[Chris Grieb]

There is also a great deal of rioting in Denmark. This rioting seems to be coming from followers of the religion of peace abetting by organized anarchists who are also abetting the rioting in Greece.

[BaalChatzaf]

There is also a great deal of rioting in Denmark. This rioting seems to be coming from followers of the religion of peace abetting by organized anarchists who are also abetting the rioting in Greece.

Allah hu'Akbar! Could this be the beginning of Denmarkistan?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

I hope the Danish cartoonists can reach the American Embassy in Copenhagen if that happens.