mattZA

There is a small let's say problem, I don't actually believe that is a problem, I believe it is in our DNA We love to complain, lot's of words but no actions. We love to dispute and get all upset and use bad language but at the end of the day we sleep very well at night because we simply blame all the others about everything and never ourselves ;) We complain about all the wrong things happening here and we sure "suffer" a lot, and yes we DO spend lot's of hours at coffee shops discussing about these terrible things. But also we buy every day new shoes and dresses because on the weekend we have to attend the best venue, with our brand new car and show of about our welfare, which of course is excellent. Deep inside I believe that is a routine for us and if somebody changes something then we simply don't like it. Are you by any chance Greek, Helen?

Greece is not much of a welfare state. Unemployment benefits are laughable and expire after six months. There isn't an incentive to be unemployed in Greece like there is in the UK. Greek politicians have a reputation for cronyism and, from that respect, business and state policy are dangerously intertwined. One may recall the fires that took place in Greece during summer, 2007. When looking at where the fires were started, one will notice that these were in prime vacation real estate development areas, and the fires were dressed up as either "acts of vandalism" or "acts of nature", when, finally, it transpired that there was something far more organized behind the whole saga. A week or two after the fires, the TV stations and newspapers (funded largely by politicians) stopped reporting on the matter altogether. The Orthodox Church does carry a lot of weight in the Greek government and can, to a large extent, dictate certain policies. One could even go so far as to say that it can determine the outcome of an election through its influence on the "flock". For this reason, politicians dance to the church's tune whenever necessary in order to maintain favour. Only a few years ago, a law requiring the declaration of religion on official identification documents was revoked. This was considered to be a very progressive move on the part of the state. Am certain that Greece is not alone with respect to the government's relationship with the church. There's Russia, most of the Balkan states, Italy, Poland, Ukraine etc etc

Most definitely. And those who are unemployed are grossly exploited in terms of salary and working conditions given that that the jobless numbers are so high. All very Dickensian.

` Sure. The shooting of the the teenager in an area largely regarded as an anarchist stronghold was merely a trigger for what erupted during the last week (and is still continuing in some places). The ruling party has been involved in a number of corruption scandals and many of the higher rank members are involved in private business enterprises (whilst, obviously, most of the lower ranking or regional-level members are as well) and a number of dubious practises have come to the surface through the press. The party has also done some deals with the church involving land exchanges etc. Whilst nobody disputes that the former ruling party (which was in power for around 20 years) was not involved in similar activities, there was nowhere near the same level of exposure, and this will probably lead to them being brought back into government. And so Greece keeps going around in circles - put politicians in who are corrupt just until their corruption is exposed, then boot them out and bring in the next group and see how long they can last without a series of scandals that is considered intolerable. The current PM, Karamanlis, is adamant that he will not step down and he refuses to involve the military to quell any of the violence. Thus, his inability, or even refusal, to enforce civil law and provide safety for citizens and business owners renders him redundant. His preference, however, is to remain in government, despite a tarnished legacy thus preventing his party from being removed from government and not completing a term for the second time (the first being in the early 90s). A vote of no-confidence in parliament, of course, is one option, but as his party hold the majority of seats (only just, though) it's a little like turkeys voting for Christmas. What is astonishing is that, in a European country, in 2008, the electorate and the elected still cannot grasp the necessity of separating state from church and economy. The events of the past week, IMHO, are deeply rooted in the intrinsic link between these in Greece, and this type of reaction will continue to flare up until the separation is enforced by the constitution. Just my two-pence worth

Hey all, Wasn't sure from where exactly to start this topic, but was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on the recent protests, attacks on police and businesses, and general vandalism that's cropped up in the last week in Greece (and is now spreading to other European countries like Italy, France etc)? The press here in Athens has attributed this to a number of reasons beyond the shooting of a 15-year old boy last Saturday. General dissatisfaction with the ruling party and it's recent spate of corruption scandals and the meddling of the Orthodox Church in state affairs. Would be curious to know what Ayn Rand would make of all this given her views on the separation of state from both economy and religion. From the events of the past week, is apparent she was definitely onto something... Matthew

Thanks, Chris, I was living and working in the UK (I was born in South Africa and my family is British) when a client I had in Athens made a job offer. Initially I planned to stay for a year, but have been there for nearly 6 now. Unfortunately, Aristotle and Plato are only really touched on briefly by high school students when reading for the Ancient Greek exams, and one does have to make a fairly deliberate effort to visit the classical sights. Athens is much like any other bustling city, and it seems that most foreigners who move there with the best intentions of soaking up some of the heritage of the Ancients end up getting "caught up" in their work and personal obligations with any endeavours to educate themselves on Classical Greece falling by the wayside. That said, weekend walks and coffee mornings in downtown Athens do have their inspiring moments.

Thanks, Michael. Was quite out of shape until around about 6 or 7 months ago when I started to hit the gym. The big problem with beginning weight-training is that there's so much contradictory information and a fair number of snake-oil salesmen out there which discredit the practice. Fortunately, I stumbled across Mentzer's writings pretty much as soon as I started lifting which relieved a lot of the frustration most beginners encounter (i.e. not seeing or "feeling" results) and avoided a dent in my wallet at the same time. Am not going to sing the praises of a single author without assessing his or her work to the best of my critical ability, but the guy presented a training methodology that was both rational and went against the grain of what was and still is being purveyed to the bodybuilding/weightlifting community through popular publications like Joe Weider's Flex or Muscle & Fitness. Anyway will stop before getting carried away, that's probably a subject in need of a thread of it's own. Thanks very much for the welcome. Matthew

Will do. Sounds like Nio choosing between the red and blue pill in "The Matrix"

Hi everyone, My name is Matthew and am a newbie to both his forum and to Objectivism in general. Am a South African based in Athens, Greece. My interest in Objectivism (which ultimately led me to this forum) was sparked by the writings of the late bodybuilder Mike Mentzer, who quoted Ayn Rand frequently in his work and characterized his approach to weight training to have been heavily influenced by her writing. Anyhow, am here to learn as much as possible from the wealth of knowledge shared by the contributors to the forum. All the best, Matthew