Which way to Galt's Gulch?

[GerryShannon]

Greetings one and all, I'm a 21-year old film student (hoping to excel in screenwriting), and have very recently become deeply interested in Ayn Rand's writings and hope to read as much as I can.

Something of a confession: The first thing that pointed me towards Objectivism was by way of my interest in comic books... particularly the work of artist Steve Ditko. I'd always been a fan of Ditko's work at Marvel Comics (such as with Spider-Man), and particularly after Jonathan Ross' documentary In Search of Steve Ditko, I was determined to track down some of Objectivist-slanted, independently produced work. I was particularly taken (and still am) with his Mr. A superhero-vigilante character. The stories often begin with Mr. A directly addressing the viewer at length in relation to a theme present in the story, and then this is explored throughout the story. Mr. A's true identity is that of Mr. Graine, a news reporter who is highly controversial and then dispenses justice to criminals he personally feels do not get their full, true punishment by the law. He dresses in a white suit and face mask, and often carries a gun. The stories then tend to end with Mr. A confronting the criminal in a meta-physical landscape that represents right and wrong. Of course, one of the character's phrases is "A is A." I'd recommend anyone here to pick up Blake Bell's recent The World of Steve Ditko coffee table hardback, that talks at considerable length, (at least how Blake percieves), the strong influence of Ditko's Objectivist beliefs on his work and career choices. If anyone knows of any study of Ditko's work within Objectivist-slanted literature, I'd greatly appreciate reading it.

Naturally, this brings me to Atlas Shrugged, which I picked up and became very engrossed as I worked during the summer away from college. I truly loved Rand's cinematic imagination and deeply fascinating lead characters, and I was oddly disappointed the book ended at the point it did. I would have loved to have seen Galt & co. continute to rebuild the world in their image, and perhaps seen some seen some salvation for Eddie Willers. I don't think this takes away at all from the fact the book is an astonishing piece of literature, and it a testment to the power of the story and characters that I wanted to see more of them. The book remains very much in my thoughts, and I'm particularly stirred by some of Rand's ideas including the emphasis of how one must treasure their mind, the rejection of "mystic" religions as a framework for your life (something I've struggled with for a long time with a personal loss a number of years ago), the potential greatness of the individual, and I could go on and on. I hope to read The Fountainhead soon, having already picked up Anthem (which I've just finished) and We The Living.

I've spent quite a while looking at the various Objectivist web resources (including that of the two main organizations), and reading about much of the movement itself, and I decided to settle in to checking out here - seems a cool place. As much as I note some positive things about them both, (I recognize Peikoff seems to be someting of a controversial figure in these parts, but I enjoy reading his notes in the books), I'm not particularly keen on joining either organization at this point - particularly the ARI - just hoping to find a more individualistic outlet to talk all things Rand and Objectivism. If that makes any kind of sense.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Gerry Shannon

[galtgulch]

Greetings one and all, I'm a 21-year old film student (hoping to excel in screenwriting), and have very recently become deeply interested in Ayn Rand's writings and hope to read as much as I can.................. ...If that makes any kind of sense.

.

Welcome Gerry,

It is always a pleasure to encounter someone to whom it is important that things "make sense."

I see you have read Ayn Rand's magnum opus and plan to read more of her novels.

You are probably aware that after the success of Atlas Rand was encouraged to start a newsletter to respond to the influx of requests for elaboration of her philosophical thinking dramatized in her novel.

I became aware of Rand in 1968. After reading Atlas I read The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. I would recommend that you do so as well. You will notice that all of the articles in each were originally published in The Objectivist Newsletter 1962-1965. At first I thought that since I read so many of the essays which appeared in The Objectivist Newsletter that it might not make sense to purchase it because of the duplication. I did buy it and you will see there is much to be discovered in the Newsletter!

It is still a delight to read Rand's essays because they are so lucid.

Her For the New Intellectual contains the philosophical speeches from all her novels but there is a lengthy essay on her views of Western civilization from a philosophical viewpoint that appears no where else which is worth knowing about as well.

Welcome to our friendly little forums where I wish I could say "never is said a discouraging word."

I also supported Ron Paul's candidacy despite his imperfections and would encourage you to take a peak at www.campaignforliberty.com which promises to launch like minded advocates of the free market in elections in the future. I hope to persuade them of the rationality of the pro choice on abortion issue about which Ayn Rand wrote passionately of a woman's right to choose based on her whim alone.

Wm

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Gerry,

Yo!

A film dude!

Cool...

Michael

[algernonsidney]

Where are you? Did you see the movie Pineapple Express?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Gerry,

I don't know if you use any of these tools, but they might interest you, especially Celtx and the free Wikiversity Filmmaking Course by Robert Elliott.

Writing software I use for free

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Gerry; Welcome. I do am very interested in movies and film.

You might want to take a look at Mimi Gladstein's talk at the Atlas 50th. She makes the point how much Ayn Rand used film techniques in the writing of Atlas.

Again Welcome!

[GerryShannon]

Wow, thanks for all the nice welcomes!

galtgulch - Thanks for all those suggestions! Most definitely check the out as soon as I have the time.

Chris - I'm based in Ireland. Funnily enough, I seem to be the last person my age that hasn't checked out Pineapple Express yet. There's nothing I haven't enjoyed to some degree from the Judd Apatow staple. I'm going to try and find that Atlas talk now, thanks for the recommendation!

Michael - Thanks for the CeltX suggestion, I usually just format scripts to their proper specifications on Word. Final Draft is still that bit too much pricey right now! ;)

[Nehaita]

Funnily enough, I seem to be the last person my age that hasn't checked out Pineapple Express yet.

Gerry, You are not the only one. I too have not seen the Pineapple Express

One of my friends wants to be a director and is into all the Marvel comics (though he has not quite found objectivism yet). He really likes the old Batman Animated series. You remimded me of that when you were talking about the Ditcko (even though I think Batman is not marvel).

I just finished reading the Fountainhead and it was great, you should most definately read it, especially if you thought Atls Shrugged should have been longer .

Oh and um... WELCOME!

Neha

[Selene]

Gerry:

Welcome. I see that you will be a fine addition.

Where are you going to school?

I read Atlas when I was about 14, circa 1959-60. My statement to myself was, but of course. It validated my values and morality and I have never looked back.

I attended NBI when it began in the basement of the Empire State building, which always amused me.

Unfortunately, I began to see over the next few years that cancerous growth of many movements for "purity" pf thought and the growth of "true believers" and I took the philosophy and moved on.

Today, we have, as you have noticed, the separate walled in organizations that claim to be the "true" interpreters of Ayn's philosophy.

This forum is quite different.

Although we can get quite contentious at times, Michael runs an incredibly clean "shop" and you will be well served by being a member.

Your youth is a major plus for growth.

I also will highly recommend the Fountainhead because in many ways it influenced me more deeply personally than Atlas because it is so individualistically meaningful to one's chosen "path", career, etc.

Welcome aboard.

Adam

[syrakusos]

... and I was oddly disappointed the book ended at the point it did. I would have loved to have seen Galt & co. continute to rebuild the world in their image, and perhaps seen some seen some salvation for Eddie Willers. I don't think this takes away ...

Welcome to Objectivist Living. The other website I like to visit is Rebirth of Reason which is where I first met the sysops here, Michael and Kat. On that website, I made the same point you did:

Nonetheless, Rand has a strong negativist component to her thought. She called Halley's Concerto of Deliverance a violent no thrown at the world. Francisco's speech about Money is mostly about what money is not. When she describes Roark's work, she first shows it by contrast, by what it is not before she describes it as if it were the first building built by the first man and then finally she gets around to little more than a verbal sketch. Atlas is all about what is wrong. The Fountainhead comes much closer to describing positive consequences of postive premises defining what is possible in the good life. Aristotle's concept of "Eudaemonia" would seem to be a natural starting point for Rand. But ...

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Quotes/1208.shtml#2

I considered living in Ireland several times because income from artistic works is not subject to income tax. However, only after moving was no longer so easy for me did Ireland get its government debt (inflation) under control. This is a radio script that I wrote for the American Numismatic Association.

IRELAND'S POET LAUREATE by Michael Marotta (from ANA "Money Talks")

"Our coins must pitch and spin to please the gambler, and pack into

rolls to please the banker." Those were the words of Nobel laureate

William Butler Yeats. Yeats won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1923

and was regarded as the greatest poet of his time. He was also in

charge of the committee that designed Ireland's coins.

Yeats was born in Dublin on June 13, 1865. At that time Ireland was

completely under the control of England. While working in England,

Yeats joined other Irish patriots who eventually won independence for

the Emerald Isle. A world-renown playwright and poet, Yeats was

elected to the Irish Senate. He chaired the committee that chose the

designs for the coins of the new Irish Free State.

Yeats had seen classical Greek coins while studying and writing in

Italy during the late 1800s. He arranged for all of the artists on

this project to receive ancient Hellenistic coins, so they could see

for themselves the powerful images he wanted to bring to Ireland's

coins.

For over seventy years, Ireland's coins changed little from the winning

designs of Percy Metcalf, a young sculptor recommended by the British

School in Rome and selected by Yeats' committee. The horse, bull,

salmon, hound and other animals of Ireland's eight circulating coins

were all joined by a common symbol of Ireland's poetic tradition: the

Celtic harp.

William Yeats died on January 28, 1939, at the age of 73.

I am not much of a coin collector, though I tried it briefly and only got interested in it as an adult. It should be no surprise that my interest in numismatics was a direct result of my exposure to Objectivism and its emphasis on the virtues of money. Mostly, I write about money -- which seems to be a thin substitute for actually having it -- and of the 200 or so articles I have published, about half were for numismatic venues. All of the literary awards I have garnered have come from numismatic organizations. The other works are about business and technology. So, Ireland's tax laws have some attraction. Now, however, moving is more complicated. More on that perhaps in a different topic entirely.

But enough about me... What's the film industry like in Ireland? Are you looking to move to the USA?

Edited September 28, 2008 by Michael E. Marotta

[GerryShannon]

Selence - It truly is incredible to see people associated with the movement way back when in these parts, I'm sure you've some stories to tell. I'm glad to be here so far, and thanks very much for the welcome.

Michael - Your work in numismatics sounds truly fascinating. Cheers for the bit on the Irish coins! ;) Sort of makes one realise something of a national identity is lost with the introduction of the Euro, (but of course the harp still remains on the Irish-Euro coins). Ah, the Irish film industry... To be fair, it's quite easy from the perspective of a student to judge the merits of the homegrown filmmakers - but I'm keeping my options open right now. In my fourth and final year of college, and have absoloutly no idea where it will take me... but determined to learn as much as I can. Nice post there from that other board, I'd be much interested in reading a genuine critical dissection of the structure of the plot and character set-up in AS. Is there such a guide available?

[GerryShannon]

And beyond the find book recommendations I'll check out as soon as I can, anyone point me to any good online Objectivist resources - particularly anything pertaining to specific writings of Rand herself? Even if it includes material from the two main organzations. The great abudance of it out there seems so overwhelming it's hard to know where to start exactly.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Gerry Shannon

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Gerry,

Robert Bidinotto has a pretty good breakdown of Atlas on the TAS site. It's a bit difficult to find, but look up his name and list of articles on the site. (I think the principals are called TAS Experts or something.) Also Google Cliff Notes, etc.

On the ARI side, they have a whole site devoted to Rand's fiction for students, if I am not mistaken.

Sorry, don't have time to find links right now. Dig into Google and all the keys to the universe are revealed.

As the good book says: Google and ye shall find...

Michael

[Reidy]

I expect you are rare in wishing Atlas Shrugged had been longer than it was, but, since you bring the question up, a reporter from the NYT Book Review asked Rand about this shortly after publication. She said Taggart would have her railroad rebuilt up and down the east coast in 3 years and across the country in 10 and that she would marry Galt.

[GerryShannon]

I expect you are rare in wishing Atlas Shrugged had been longer than it was, but, since you bring the question up, a reporter from the NYT Book Review asked Rand about this shortly after publication. She said Taggart would have her railroad rebuilt up and down the east coast in 3 years and across the country in 10 and that she would marry Galt.

Hey, that's cool to know! Similar to how Rowling gradually revealled various main characters' unknown fates following the very definite end of Harry Potter Book 7.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Gerry Shannon

[GerryShannon]

As the good book says: Google and ye shall find...

Michael

Will do. Thanks very much.

[GerryShannon]

Oh and um... WELCOME!

Neha

Missed your post. Thanks - glad to be here!

[algernonsidney]

Gerry,

Get over to Bristol in November and do this workshop. I have met Olivia Nelson (one of the leaders), and she is wonderful. It's called the Mastery:

http://www.interactive-consultancies.co.uk...ops/mastery.htm

It was initially designed for actors, but I'm sure you will find some value in it as well.

They have them in Manchester and London, too.

[Barbara Branden]

Welome to Objectivist Living, Gerry!

Galtsgulch: "Ayn Rand wrote passionately of a woman's right to choose based on her whim alone."

Oops! Rand would never say that. She would grant that a woman should have a legal right to choose an abortion for any reason or for no reason, but not that she had the moral right to do so. To choose by whim rather than by reason is precisely what Atlas Shrugged most opposed.

Barbara

[merjet]

She [Ayn Rand] would grant that a woman should have a legal right to choose an abortion for any reason or for no reason, but not that she had the moral right to do so. To choose by whim rather than by reason is precisely what Atlas Shrugged most opposed.

Barbara

"Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered." -- Ayn Rand ("Of Living Death")

[Brant Gaede]

She [Ayn Rand] would grant that a woman should have a legal right to choose an abortion for any reason or for no reason, but not that she had the moral right to do so. To choose by whim rather than by reason is precisely what Atlas Shrugged most opposed.

Barbara

"Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered." -- Ayn Rand ("Of Living Death")

AR is here talking about the moral apperceptions of others, not the woman. Acting on whim or irrationality is immoral as such but not necessarily anybody else's business. I do think Barbara's statement needs to be reformulated. There is a difference between moral and moral right. That I have the moral right to do X means it is immoral to have a law that says I can't. That I have the moral right to be irrational means it is immoral to have a law that says I can't. But irrational is immoral except out of mistaken ignorance. Acting on whim in a serious context is even worse. There are contexts where that is safe and fun.

--Brant

[Selene]

Folks:

Realizing this might be quite controversial, I will pose it anyway!

Fact pattern:

Wife A and Husband B decide together to have children.

They become pregnant.

Three months into the pregnancy, reasons unknown, Wife A declares that she does not want the _______[fetus, human life, etc. undefined at this point for the sake of this problem].

Does Husband B have any claim/right on the _________________[fetus, human life, etc. undefined at this point for the sake of this problem]..

If not, why not?

If yes, based on what theory of human rights?

Adam

[Dragonfly]

No, he doesn't have the right, as the child is still part of the woman and only she can decide what to do with her own body. The situation is not symmetrical.

[Mindy Newton]

She [Ayn Rand] would grant that a woman should have a legal right to choose an abortion for any reason or for no reason, but not that she had the moral right to do so. To choose by whim rather than by reason is precisely what Atlas Shrugged most opposed.

Barbara

"Abortion is a moral right—which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered." -- Ayn Rand ("Of Living Death")

AR is here talking about the moral apperceptions of others, not the woman. Acting on whim or irrationality is immoral as such but not necessarily anybody else's business. I do think Barbara's statement needs to be reformulated. There is a difference between moral and moral right. That I have the moral right to do X means it is immoral to have a law that says I can't. That I have the moral right to be irrational means it is immoral to have a law that says I can't. But irrational is immoral except out of mistaken ignorance. Acting on whim in a serious context is even worse. There are contexts where that is safe and fun.

--Brant

Nothing wrong with Barbara's quote.

Rand said, "wish." A wish could, of course, express a mere whim. But a wish also might be a deeply considered choice.

= Mindy

[merjet]

Nothing wrong with Barbara's quote.

Rand said, "wish." A wish could, of course, express a mere whim. But a wish also might be a deeply considered choice.

= Mindy

What are you talking about? Barbara didn't quote Rand; I did. On the other hand, one of Barbara's assertions about Rand was very wrong.