LA TIMES reports Obama chooses Biden for VP!

[galtgulch]

Understood.

My whole point is to try to direct Galt in a more rational path. He has to be quite young and just ....

Sorry, I do not try to import analysis to a person's post, but Galt is just so __________fill in your blank irrational that it basically frustrates me as a teacher.

Adam

I appreciate your concern for my seeming irrationality because I am willing to give the Republican delegates the benefit of the doubt, meaning I am willing to try to reason with them by presenting them with the arguments and facts you can see for yourself on the RNC Delegate Video #1 on youtube.com. I find it hard to imagine Romney or Guiliani watching the DVD and deciding to support Ron Paul but maybe there are enough others who are still open to the possibility.

It would be nice if someone else here watched the DVD and commented on it critically. It is in 14 parts of about ten minutes each. They are numbered #1-1 through #1-14.

If the DVDs aren't watched by the delegates that would be unfortunate. But if many of them do watch the DVD some of them may respond the way Ron Paul supporters have. After all, 1.1 million voters chose to vote for him and many donated to his money bombs which got some media attention. He is a gentleman and some object that he is not aggressive enough. Some assume he would not be strong enough or that he is an isolationist whereas he is a non-interventionist.

Many people I speak with tell me that they saw him in the debates and thought he made sense but saw no print media coverage.

I know that even if he did get the nomination that the media would still try to bury him because they have their own agenda, dictated by those profiting from the Federal Reserve System control of our currency.

If that makes me a conspiracy nut so be it.

galt

[Alfonso Jones]

Understood.

My whole point is to try to direct Galt in a more rational path. He has to be quite young and just ....

Sorry, I do not try to import analysis to a person's post, but Galt is just so __________fill in your blank irrational that it basically frustrates me as a teacher.

Adam

I appreciate your concern for my seeming irrationality because I am willing to give the Republican delegates the benefit of the doubt, meaning I am willing to try to reason with them by presenting them with the arguments and facts you can see for yourself on the RNC Delegate Video #1 on youtube.com. I find it hard to imagine Romney or Guiliani watching the DVD and deciding to support Ron Paul but maybe there are enough others who are still open to the possibility.

It would be nice if someone else here watched the DVD and commented on it critically. It is in 14 parts of about ten minutes each. They are numbered #1-1 through #1-14.

If the DVDs aren't watched by the delegates that would be unfortunate. But if many of them do watch the DVD some of them may respond the way Ron Paul supporters have. After all, 1.1 million voters chose to vote for him and many donated to his money bombs which got some media attention. He is a gentleman and some object that he is not aggressive enough. Some assume he would not be strong enough or that he is an isolationist whereas he is a non-interventionist.

Many people I speak with tell me that they saw him in the debates and thought he made sense but saw no print media coverage.

I know that even if he did get the nomination that the media would still try to bury him because they have their own agenda, dictated by those profiting from the Federal Reserve System control of our currency.

If that makes me a conspiracy nut so be it.

galt

Galt -

I certainly don't object (and never have) to you being "willing to give the Republican delegates the benefit of the doubt" - I'm arguing that your descriptions of the state of things are extremely unrealistic, to the point of portraying fantasy as demonstrated fact. You speak in many of your posts as if Ron Paul's nomination as Republican candidate for President in 2008 is an almost accomplished fact. All data I see suggests this is a fantasy supported primarily by willful suppression of the evidence to the contrary. (I'm assuming you don't have signed statements or actual interviews with actual Republican delegates who declare, in sufficient numbers to make your claims credible, that they intend to abstain on the first ballot and then vote for Ron Paul subsequently. Remember - 100 delegates is not the number required. That will be a symbolic statement. Now, if you do have this sort of information, please inform us...)

I'm not, in this response, going to discuss why I object to Ron Paul. (I object to John McCain also! The question is who is less despicable!) That is not the issue at present in this thread. The issue is the lack of demonstrable reality behind your claims. That's how I assess it.

Again - my view --- Ron Paul's chances for the Republican Presidential candidate nomination are less than .001. Further thought (which would not accomplish any reasonable purpose) would be required to determine how much less than .001.

Added after original post as edit: And, yes, I have viewed some but not all of the portions of the DVD available on youtube.

Bill P (Alfonso)

Edited August 24, 2008 by Bill P

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; Re your last post: You don't need the word "conspiracy".

[galtgulch]

Galt; Re your last post: You don't need the word "conspiracy".

Ad hominem!

[Selene]

Galt; Re your last post: You don't need the word "conspiracy".

Ad hominem!

Now that is almost laughable.

Ad Hominem - " to the person. A term used in logic with reference to a personal argument." < Black's Law Dictionary

As oposed to your conspiracy spin?

Adam

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; If the word "nut" means anything it is someone who is out of touch with reality. Your posts about Ron Paul being the GOP nominee are out of touch with reality. Paul has no delegates and got little support in the primaries. He raised a lot of money. I personally wish he had done better. I have meet Dr. Paul and I like him.

Final point: Galt: You have mentioned the fact that Ron Paul had recommend Atlas in his book "The Revolution". At the time of Ayn Rand's death he made no tribute or placed any acknowledgment of her achievements in the Congressional Record. The Alaska legislature at the urging of Dick Randolph passed a resolution honored Miss Rand's great life work. Ron Paul did nothing.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Chris Grieb

[galtgulch]

Galt; Re your last post: You don't need the word "conspiracy".

Ad hominem!

Now that is almost laughable.

Ad Hominem - " to the person. A term used in logic with reference to a personal argument." < Black's Law Dictionary

As opposed to your conspiracy spin?

Adam

Now you are talking! Do you have a better explanation as to why Ron Paul was "buried" by the main stream media? He is the only candidate who mentioned the Federal Reserve System and his take that it is not authorized in the Constitution along with his explicit intention to abolish it! Something tells me that when that was heard during the debates alarms bells went off in the boardrooms at the Fed! It is not hard to imagine that those who have been making money off the control of the currency which is their job were moved to take action! Phone calls were made to someone. Probably to the moguls who own and run the main stream media. I don't know their names but I gather that such ownership has dwindled down to about five individuals. One can imagine the conversation! I don't know whether there were orders or pleas or both. Shut this guy down! No press at all! Lets give the impression the guy has no chance to win!

Ron Paul is a threat to the profits of those who make money within the Federal Reserve System. Read Murray Rothbard's The Case Against the Fed available at www.mises.org:

http://tinyurl.com/6mgj4b

Murray Rothbard died a natural death but if Ron Paul were elected president he would be at risk of assassination.

In his book in which he gives the history behind the creation of the Fed which required years of groundwork, Rothbard points out how even the name was contrived to give the impression that it was a government entity, that there was gold behind the Notes it creates, and that it is not a private bank when in reality it is indeed a private bank and there is no gold behind its Federal Reserve Notes.

Ron Paul has ignited a movement of individuals who are beginning to realize what is going on and they are intent on getting involved at every level to wake up their neighbors. They will ultimately support the election of their people into the Congress and the Senate and state legislatures. And when they do they will turn things around so that the Constitution will once again rule.

galt

Edited August 25, 2008 by galtgulch

[kiaer.ts]

Phone calls were made to someone.

This is undoubtedly true. (I have made some myself.)

Murray Rothbard died a natural death but if Ron Paul were elected president he would be at risk of assassination.

Ah, now this (what you have said) and this mixture of half-truths, lies and innuendos tells us all we need to know.

[galtgulch]

Phone calls were made to someone.

This is undoubtedly true. (I have made some myself.)

Murray Rothbard died a natural death but if Ron Paul were elected president he would be at risk of assassination.

Ah, now this (what you have said) and this mixture of half-truths, lies and innuendos tells us all we need to know.

The implication being that the Federal Reserve System is authorized in the Constitution and that they have maintained the value of the 1913 dollar to this day and that Federal Reserve Notes can be redeemed in gold!

Whose side are you on?

galt

[kiaer.ts]

Whose side are you on?

I suppose the proper answer is that I am on mine.

Rothbard was apparently a liar and a lunatic. Have you not read the document at the link I provided? Take some time, and read it, and let us know what you think, and whose side you are "on." I had always thought that Rand's disdain for Libertarians was overblown. Had thought.

[galtgulch]

Whose side are you on?

I suppose the proper answer is that I am on mine.

Rothbard was apparently a liar and a lunatic. Have you not read the document at the link I provided? Take some time, and read it, and let us know what you think, and whose side you are "on." I had always thought that Rand's disdain for Libertarians was overblown. Had thought.

Ted,

I learned a long time ago that Ayn Rand excommunicated Murray Rothbard allegedly because he had some religious beliefs or the like. I found out about Objectivism in 1968 and subscribed to The Objectivist just in time to receive the issue announcing the breakup with Nathaniel Branden. I continued to admire both Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden and read both their works and still do. Despite the conflicts between Rothbard and Rand I also found it worthwhile to use my own judgment regarding Rothbard's books on economics.

You still haven't answered my questions regarding the Federal Reserve System. In my post above I thought I made it clear that I was using my imagination when I suggested that the Feds responded to realizing that Ron Paul was out to put an end to their corruption of the dollar. Of course I can't prove any of it but we do know that the media did bury Ron Paul for the duration of the campaign and even wrote that his campaign had ended long before he suspended it after the last primary. Are you suggesting they did what they did on their own with no orders from the moguls who in turn gave the orders on their own without any contact with the Feds? I wonder if an investigation might reveal any phone or email contact between the Feds and the moguls?

And your explanation of the media burying the Ron Paul campaign is what?

galt

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rothbard was not a lunatic. He was a serious scholar who had a downside, like just about every other serious scholar on the planet.

Some of his works are extremely instructive. Others not so much.

So there's a Rand camp and a Rothbard camp and they demonize each other. Why does the word "tribal" keep coming to mind?

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Galt; Ron Paul didn't get any votes. Shortly after super Tuesday McCain had the nomination. Ron Paul got good coverage for a candidate who never showed that well in the polls.

The Federal Reserve is probably unconstitutional. You are right that there are very important people who want to keep the Federal Reserve.

Murray Rothbard could not get along with lots of different people in the Libertarian movement. See "Radicals for Capitalism".

Just to repeat myself I like Ron Paul and I hope he serves many more years in Congress.

With your last post you suggest we are close to the same age. You should begin to get a more realistic judgment of events.

[galtgulch]

Galt; Ron Paul didn't get any votes. Shortly after super Tuesday McCain had the nomination. Ron Paul got good coverage for a candidate who never showed that well in the polls.

The Federal Reserve is probably unconstitutional. You are right that there are very important people who want to keep the Federal Reserve.

Murray Rothbard could not get along with lots of different people in the Libertarian movement. See "Radicals for Capitalism".

Just to repeat myself I like Ron Paul and I hope he serves many more years in Congress.

With your last post you suggest we are close to the same age. You should begin to get a more realistic judgment of events.

Chris,

As I understand it the Roman Empire fell when there were more people on the dole than producers bearing the tax burden to support them. It was not as simple as that. But although I am tickled to see the commitment and dedication by those joining the Campaign for Liberty I think they will probably grow into the millions but will ultimately hit a wall because so many are on the receiving end.

The antidote may be known, which is how I view Objectivism and its insights and perspective, and I know no army can stop an idea whose time has come according to Victor Hugo, but our only hope for the future is the younger generations many not yet conceived, unless their judgment is too damaged by those who influence them as children. Teachers who are obliged and mandated to teach Evolution are discovering that many are already indoctrinated with biblical teaching that they are hard to reach.

Remains to be seen whose judgment of reality is correct.

galt

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Galt,

I don't agree with you about your election predictions nor about your evaluation of Ron Paul (although there are several things I do agree with).

But I must say that beholding your tenacity and enthusiasm is inspiring. The best things in the world are made of that spirit.

You are on the edge of stepping outside of reality, so I wish there were words to encourage you to keep wedded to that spirit (which is a magnificent thing to behold), use it for your dreams and visions (including Ron Paul's political career if such be the case), but take great care with identification of fact.

With just a tiny push, that spirit so close to the edge becomes madness, and what should have changed the world for the better gets brushed aside.

Michael

[Selene]

Michael:

This is why I like and respect you.

You, apparently, have been to the edge in Brazil.

An oral interpretation class that i "sat in on", purely for my own edification, I listened to an excellent reading of a poem, named, "If I only could live at a peak that is near madness", I was quite rewarded and it is a fine line when you are willing to think between both worlds.

Adam

[galtgulch]

Galt,

I don't agree with you about your election predictions nor about your evaluation of Ron Paul (although there are several things I do agree with).

But I must say that beholding your tenacity and enthusiasm is inspiring. The best things in the world are made of that spirit.

You are on the edge of stepping outside of reality, so I wish there were words to encourage you to keep wedded to that spirit (which is a magnificent thing to behold), use it for your dreams and visions (including Ron Paul's political career if such be the case), but take great care with identification of fact.

With just a tiny push, that spirit so close to the edge becomes madness, and what should have changed the world for the better gets brushed aside.

Michael

Michael,

I know that Ron Paul for all his virtues is not the ideal candidate. I do think he is head and shoulders above the others this year. I do dread his religiosity and perhaps he would bring a theocracy upon us.

Given that I have endured all the irrationality in our political realm over the years there is no way I will even pull my hair out no matter what happens. We watch while other innocents experience the horrors of genocide and war and do what we can to save the world each day by passing the torch at least.

You know that none of you are going to lose your minds because of the outcome of this election. I have enjoyed being a minor spear carrier behind the scenes and assure you there is as much chance of my flipping out as there is of you, gentle reader, of losing your mind as well. Not a chance!

I do wish more of us who know more than the average man about philosophy and economics and such were willing to rub elbows with those who were awakened by Ron Paul but who lack the knowledge we could impart.

galt

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You, apparently, have been to the edge in Brazil.

Adam,

I have a cute "edge" memory from back then. When I was going through detox from my crack addiction, I went to work for a video company (VTO Pictures and Continental Home Video). There I met a woman who was severe, competent and had a lot of integrity. Obviously this attracted me (not as woman, but as friend).

Then I found out she was a Christian fundamentalist. Still, I had no problem with that. I figured her type of person was a lot better than the kind of company I had been keeping down at the Combat Zone.

The inevitable day came when she witnessed to me to try to convert me. I listened wide-eyed as she talked about Christianity from a perspective that I didn't even know existed. It was a complete Biblical rewrite.

For instance, she started going on about what happened during the 3 days between the death of Jesus and the resurrection. She spun a story about his travels all over the universe, including how he went down into Hell to let Lucifer know his time was coming and so on. It was quite a tale, full of details, and she got more and more agitated as she told it. Her eyes were wide, bearing down straight into my eyes, and her voice was thundering when she got to the final line, delivered with her right first finger jabbing straight up at the heavens:

"Because, Michael, when the day comes and you see this sky of ours tear open and split in two right over your head, you will understand the meaning of God's power!"

I looked at her and blinked. I remembered my recent drug experiences and said, quietly, "I have already seen the sky split in two right over my head."

There was a long silence while she looked at me almost not comprehending what I had said. Then it slowly sank in as she gradually came down from her preaching high.

It was a priceless moment.

She simply did not know how to continue. She was a person who had been trained down at the church to have an answer for everything and she was a strong, opinionated person just by herself, but no one had ever told her what to say to something like that.

I can't remember how it ended. The telephone rang or something. Then we went back to normal as if nothing had been preached or said.

I'm not sure what this story means. I wasn't trying to be funny or mock her. It just popped out that way. It was an intense moment, though. One day I might write it into one of my works.

Michael

[Selene]

Michael:

Thankfully, I have never even experienced that drug, I once jokingly told a client that had been going into Brooklyn down streets that you should never go down without body armor and firepower or Tai Chi expertise to buy the highly sought "rock".

I arrogantly said, my mind is strong enough that I bet you that I could take a hit of a crack pipe and not get addicted.

His eyes narrowed and he said, Adam you have helped me reattach to my daughter...if I ever see you attempt to prove that statement, I will break your neck and put you out of your future misery!

Ok.

He convinced me.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I arrogantly said, my mind is strong enough that I bet you that I could take a hit of a crack pipe and not get addicted.

Adam,

I know a cop who took a hit on a crack pipe on a bust I witnessed to prove how macho he was to us onlookers. Within a short few months he lost his gig and became a street bum—a "noia" in the jargon. (Noia means a person who is actually paranoid from so much crack-induced paranoia, or one who is high and worrying people to death with his temporary paranoia.)

True story.

(btw - You had a good friend.)

Michael

[kiaer.ts]

I am not a member of any camp. I am quite critical of Rand's theory of human nature, which is rationalistic. I find her behavior in the affair simply naive - I dealt with similar issues in my twenties, and managed to stay friends with the people involved because I was able to imagine things from their point of view. I loathe the modus operandi of ARI. I have met Harry Binswanger at a speech at U Penn where he gratuitously insulted both me (I had brought a notepad in case he said something about free will that I wanted to write down verbatim. I took no notes at all during his speech. During the Q&A he looked at me and made a comment about "anti-conceptula personalities who take detailed notes and fail to comprehend the lecture. I figured he had seen that in the past, so rather than hold up my blank pad, I held my tongue) and my then future brother-in-law, (he asked how children first form the choice to focus, Binswanger said that anyone who asked such a question would not understand the answer) and he embodied everything bad which can truly be said of the inner church. I find Rand's history of "breaks" to be a sign of emotional immaturity and poor boundary setting, apparently abetted by the weakness of those around her who failed until too late to stand up for themselves. That said, and having been ignorant of Rothbard in all but name until two weeks ago, when I first read his Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult, I found his attack on Rand to be a load of half-truths, lies and innuendos, which, if what you say, that he was "excommunicated" is true, (and I don't doubt it) shows that he was not above rewritting history for psychologically self-serving reasons. (I do not deny that he may have written some valuable books. Hitler had the Autobahns built. One need not be equally a lunatic in all things.) Rand's behavior was bad, it was childish, but it was in no way comparable to Hitler. I need be a member of no camp to see that with a sprinkling of cherry-picked facts he weaves a web of tinfoil hat nonsense. I was born in 1968. I don't bear the scars of those years. But even those who do bear them need not mythologize Rand into a monster that she was not. To state that while Rothbard died a natural death (why, who would have killed him?) but that Paul will obviously be executed is so self-evidently bizarre and "conspiracy-theoretical" that it hardly needs comment.

I am sure I have said more than enough. I would certainly prefer Ron Paul to Barack Obama. I'd prefer Marilyn Manson to Barack Obama. But I don't pretend that reality is so congenial to my preferences.

As for the Federal Reserve, what does my comment on it have to do with Paul's electability? I wrote two honors theses on Woodrow Wilson. I am familiar with the Fed, and opposed to the Fed's continued existence. I don't expect Paul could do much about the issue without a full congressional turn over. How likely is that in three months? A heck of a lot less than .001%

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ted,

I don't know how much of you post was addressed to me, but I only took issue with the idea that Rothbard was a lunatic.

He did his monkey-shines. If you think The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult is a monkey-shine, you should see Rand-bash play Mozart was a Red. (You can see the play performed rather badly here, in all its smarmy mediocrity: Mozart was a Red.) There were a few good lines in the play, though. ("Keith, would you like a cigarette? Here, this is a particularly rational brand." )

I have not been close enough to Rothbard's structure and literature to get a gist of the nuances of his organization. The Objectivist world alone is complicated enough!

But there are people I greatly love and admire, like Chris Sciabarra, who were close to him and think highly of him. I remember reading Rothbard's analysis of the Federal Reserve System and found it pretty good at the time. Some other essays, too.

I can't be sure, but I get the impression that Rothbard was highly intelligent, but not a genius. However he was impatient and had a very high IQ. This led him to fudge some things he should not have fudged and be dismissive of some people he should not have dismissed. That is my opinion from a distance and I admit it could be inaccurate.

I think an angry man because of a personal spat, like he comes off with The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult (mocking and all, including the Mozart play), is a far different matter than a person hell-bent on scapegoating someone for power-lust or sheer hatred. To be honest, Rothbard's reaction to Rand reminds me more than a little of Rand's reaction to the Brandens after the break. Very targeted and very exaggerated and omissive (along with some creative accounting of facts), but not bigoted spite.

Michael

[kiaer.ts]

Oh, yeah- Mozart was a Red. I did read that some years back, forgot it was him. Whether spite or stupidity or what, it's simply unfair, like the criticism of Roark in the Fountainhead. I can countenance disagreement, and dislike. But misrepresentation is never acceptible.

Lunatic was not used in the clinical sense.

Oh, and if an issue of criticism is raised, I like to address it strongly. So it was more the ideas you raised and those that are similar to them that I countered, rather than your moderate response. I have not been personally offended by anything said above.

Back to Biden, here's some of what Tracinski said in TIA daily:

But don't take my word for how bad this plan was. Ask the Iraqis. Reuters reports that Obama's choice is not going over well in Iraq.

Senator Joe Biden may be one of the only US politicians [who] can get Iraq's feuding Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish politicians to agree. But not in a good way.

Across racial and religious boundaries, Iraqi politicians on Saturday bemoaned Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama's choice of running mate, known in Iraq as the author of a 2006 plan to divide the country into ethnic and sectarian enclaves.

As one Iraqi member of parliament summed it up: "We rejected his proposal when he announced it, and we still reject it. Dividing the communities and land in such a way would only lead to new fighting between people over resources and borders." So much for Obama's promises about showing more respect for our allies. In fact, Biden's proposal hearkens back to the era of Western colonialism, when politicians in London or Washington took it upon themselves to draft plans for how to divide up other people's countries.

[Reidy]

Rothbard was so very spiteful and personal that I've suspected his real complaint was that he missed out on the career boost that Nathaniel Branden, Kay Nolte Smith, Edith Efron and perhaps others (even Ludwig von Mises) enjoyed by virtue of their connection to Rand.

(I don't include Greenspan or Hessen because they weren't in careers where Rand's good word would have helped.)

Edited August 26, 2008 by Reidy

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Oh, yeah- Mozart was a Red. I did read that some years back, forgot it was him. Whether spite or stupidity or what, it's simply unfair, like the criticism of Roark in the Fountainhead.

Ted,

Comedy is often context. How would that play sound on Saturday Night Live if it were not written by Rothbard? I bet for many it would sound like a completely new work, a funny spoof.

Because of the squabble, it sounds like mockery to many Objectivists and libertarians.

I believe the SNL people also would shoot for comic delivery instead of that lame presentation that featured sniggering mockery as a theatrical style.

Michael