Rick Giles, poster on SOLOP forum, in jail

[Chris Grieb]

Robert; I'm beginning to believe that a presumption of innocence should not always apply to agents of the government.

[Jonathan]

None of that is particularly important here. A government agent who has been granted the power to arbitrarily arrest and detain people under grossly nonobjective laws has used that power.

I don't know that the agent arbitrarily arrested and detained Giles. He may have, or he may not have. As I said, I don't trust government agents. But I also don't trust Giles, or most of his friends at SOLOP, to be reliable sources of information.

I'll believe that Mr. Giles provoked said agent when I see the evidence. Not before, not until.

In case it wasn't clear in my last post, I didn't say that I believed that Giles provoked anyone. I said that I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

J

[Robert Campbell]

Jonathan,

I'd like to hear more from both sides, too.

In the meantime, though, I'm not going to draw conclusions about what Mr. Giles might have done, using as evidence the self-reported behavior of another SOLOPper.

Whereas I do think the past behavior of La Migra and its agents has some predictive value in the present.

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Up the thread, Martin made a reference to the alleged terrorism watch list:

[Wendy McElroy's] concern is pressing as the American "terror watch list" used to refuse entry has grown to 755,000 names. Wired reports, Since the list is now used in nearly all routine police stops and for domestic airline travel, Americans made up the bulk of those matches. If you estimate conservatively that 2/3rds are American (500,000 names out of a population of 300,000,000), then approximately one in every 600 Americans is on the list.

There is no way that this list can be nearly so long, and so full of US citizens, unless the Feds have simply dumped names of people suspected of all kinds of unrelated stuff onto it. Given recent Federal law and policy in the US, I'll bet that every "deadbat dad" is on it, for starters.

What's more, as per an expose on 60 Minutes a couple of years ago, the list apparently consists only of first and last names. No dates of birth, no other information, not even a middle name or initial.

Every time I go to an airport in the US, a worried-looking counter person has to run a security check on me. The last time I returned from overseas, I was kept in La Migra's waiting room at O'Hare airport for 45 minutes while an ICE agent spent 45 minutes trying to raise someone in Washington on a Sunday afternoon to confirm that I was not the guy that they were after. I was not in a cell, but my passport was taken from me and they could have made me stay right where I was long past the time when my flight home was due to leave.

Let's see, how many Robert Campbells are there in the US? We're probably talking in the thousands. And is the one Robert Campbell that they're after really suspected of helping out Hezbollah, or running guns for Al Qa'eda?

Think of what happens to every Joe Smith or Eduardo Gomez or Brittany Jones, if one person by that name gets dumped on the "terror watch" list.

Robert Campbell

[Selene]

Up the thread, Martin made a reference to the alleged terrorism watch list:

[Wendy McElroy's] concern is pressing as the American "terror watch list" used to refuse entry has grown to 755,000 names. Wired reports, Since the list is now used in nearly all routine police stops and for domestic airline travel, Americans made up the bulk of those matches. If you estimate conservatively that 2/3rds are American (500,000 names out of a population of 300,000,000), then approximately one in every 600 Americans is on the list.

There is no way that this list can be nearly so long, and so full of US citizens, unless the Feds have simply dumped names of people suspected of all kinds of unrelated stuff onto it. Given recent Federal law and policy in the US, I'll bet that every "deadbat dad" is on it, for starters.

What's more, as per an expose on 60 Minutes a couple of years ago, the list apparently consists only of first and last names. No dates of birth, no other information, not even a middle name or initial.

Every time I go to an airport in the US, a worried-looking counter person has to run a security check on me. The last time I returned from overseas, I was kept in La Migra's waiting room at O'Hare airport for 45 minutes while an ICE agent spent 45 minutes trying to raise someone in Washington on a Sunday afternoon to confirm that I was not the guy that they were after. I was not in a cell, but my passport was taken from me and they could have made me stay right where I was long past the time when my flight home was due to leave.

Let's see, how many Robert Campbells are there in the US? We're probably talking in the thousands. And is the one Robert Campbell that they're after really suspected of helping out Hezbollah, or running guns for Al Qa'eda?

Think of what happens to every Joe Smith or Eduardo Gomez or Brittany Jones, if one person by that name gets dumped on the "terror watch" list.

Robert Campbell

I agree with your concern over the basic incompetence of government and government "lists", but please do not use 60 Minutes as a source for anything, without some outside verification.

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Up the thread, Martin made a reference to the alleged terrorism watch list:

[Wendy McElroy's] concern is pressing as the American "terror watch list" used to refuse entry has grown to 755,000 names. Wired reports, Since the list is now used in nearly all routine police stops and for domestic airline travel, Americans made up the bulk of those matches. If you estimate conservatively that 2/3rds are American (500,000 names out of a population of 300,000,000), then approximately one in every 600 Americans is on the list.

There is no way that this list can be nearly so long, and so full of US citizens, unless the Feds have simply dumped names of people suspected of all kinds of unrelated stuff onto it. Given recent Federal law and policy in the US, I'll bet that every "deadbat dad" is on it, for starters.

What's more, as per an expose on 60 Minutes a couple of years ago, the list apparently consists only of first and last names. No dates of birth, no other information, not even a middle name or initial.

Every time I go to an airport in the US, a worried-looking counter person has to run a security check on me. The last time I returned from overseas, I was kept in La Migra's waiting room at O'Hare airport for 45 minutes while an ICE agent spent 45 minutes trying to raise someone in Washington on a Sunday afternoon to confirm that I was not the guy that they were after. I was not in a cell, but my passport was taken from me and they could have made me stay right where I was long past the time when my flight home was due to leave.

Let's see, how many Robert Campbells are there in the US? We're probably talking in the thousands. And is the one Robert Campbell that they're after really suspected of helping out Hezbollah, or running guns for Al Qa'eda?

Think of what happens to every Joe Smith or Eduardo Gomez or Brittany Jones, if one person by that name gets dumped on the "terror watch" list.

Robert Campbell

I agree with your concern over the basic incompetence of government and government "lists", but please do not use 60 Minutes as a source for anything, without some outside verification.

My unlce Dave has a new marked preference for driving over flying now that "David Nelson" is on the watch list.

[Robert Campbell]

60 Minutes is capable of doing good investigative journalism, when the people in charge of it actually want that.

And Dan Rather was not involved in covering this story...

One of the officials in charge of the list was interviewed on camera about the nature of the information on it.

She resigned from her job a week after the segment aired.

Robert Campbell

[Selene]

60 Minutes is capable of doing good investigative journalism, when the people in charge of it actually want that.

And Dan Rather was not involved in covering this story...

One of the officials in charge of the list was interviewed on camera about the nature of the information on it.

She resigned from her job a week after the segment aired.

Robert Campbell

Ahh! Where are you Ronald Reagan? TRUST, BUT VERIFY! "Tear down that wall! Seriously, I would seek at least three (3) independent verifications of anything that comes out of CBS.

[Philip Coates]

> I would seek at least three (3) independent verifications of anything that comes out of CBS.

Selene, I think that depends on what the article or report is about. Biased journalism is more likely when the topic is ideological.

(Comparing multiple sources, as you point out, is often a good idea. I have an article on all this and on how to defend yourself against bias, "On Not Being a Patsy for Today's Intellectuals", which is currently on the front columns page of theatlasphere.com).

[Jonathan]

Jonathan,

I'd like to hear more from both sides, too.

In the meantime, though, I'm not going to draw conclusions about what Mr. Giles might have done, using as evidence the self-reported behavior of another SOLOPper.

Nor am I. My point has not been to "draw conclusions" about the events leading up to Giles' arrest and detainment, but to say that I don't see him or his SOLOP pals as emotionally mature, as reliable sources of information, or as good judges of their own behavior. And the purpose of my posting a link to the "Claudia's Night Out" thread was not to present "evidence." It was simply a quick, easy to find example that popped into my mind of the type of behavior that many SOLOPsists seem to think of as rational and virtuous. I was thinking of it as an apt illustration of a type of self-blindness, and not as "evidence."

Whereas I do think the past behavior of La Migra and its agents has some predictive value in the present.

I agree. As I've said, I don't trust government agents either.

J

[Selene]

> I would seek at least three (3) independent verifications of anything that comes out of CBS.

Selene, I think that depends on what the article or report is about. Biased journalism is more likely when the topic is ideological.

(Comparing multiple sources, as you point out, is often a good idea. I have an article on all this and on how to defend yourself against bias, "On Not Being a Patsy for Today's Intellectuals", which is currently on the front columns page of theatlasphere.com).

Understood. I will read your article. My point was for folks to "see" the words and the "context" of the "message" and the "medium" wherein the "message" is being transmited as part of how they may "asimilate", "translate", "incorporate", etc., "data".

Michael, general semantist can translate. Lol.

[Martin Radwin]

Rick Giles is now a free man. He's back in New Zealand, courtesy of a free plane ride he never asked for from US immigration.

I'm not sure if we should thank these benevolent bureaucrats for protecting us from a potential terrorist from New Zealand. These days, you can never be too careful.

http://www.solopassion.com/node/3602

Martin

[Chris Grieb]

I'm glad he's out of jail. Does this mean he lost his job in Canada?

[Martin Radwin]

I'm glad he's out of jail. Does this mean he lost his job in Canada?

Chris,

I don't know. I certainly hope not. All I know is what I've read on the SOLOP thread, and Rick didn't address this. I'm sure more information about his rather unpleasant experience with US immigration authorities will come out in the future.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to eventually find out that it did cost him his job. Not only that, but it might even turn out that he will be forever banned from ever entering Canada again, based on this petty violation of his US tourist visa. If Canadian authorities are now banning Americans who've participated in anti-war rallies, it's not much of a stretch to extrapolate that they would also ban foreigners who have violated US immigration law in even the most trivial way.

This is, unfortunately, the way our world seems to be evolving. Governments now have the technological means, via computers, to track the activities of people no matter where they live and to cooperate with each other in crushing people's liberties. Not quite the way George Orwell envisioned it, but close enough.

Martin

[Chris Grieb]

Martin;

Could you provide a source about the deporting of people who take part in anti- war rallies.

The "libertarian" enclaves in Canada. OUCH!

[Martin Radwin]

Martin;

Could you provide a source about the deporting of people who take part in anti- war rallies.

The "libertarian" enclaves in Canada. OUCH!

Chris,

See my post # 19 on this thread, where I quoted a post made by Wendy McElroy on her blog. She didn't actually say that people participating in anti-war rallies were being deported from Canada. Rather, she said that they were being forbidden entry into Canada.

I haven't actually heard of cases of people being deported from Canada for such activities, but this could just be what lies in our not too distant future. When confronted with such stories, I always remember the metaphor about slowly boiling the frog. One sad step at a time.

Martin

[Robert Campbell]

Rick Giles' five weeks in detention, courtesy of La Migra, have been getting some attention in the blogosphere. For instance, here:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_...ca-the-u-3.html

Robert Campbell

[william.scherk]

I found this on the SOLOP site, posted by Melissa Lepley. [ . . . ]

"Some of you may have noticed the absence of Rick Giles from this forum for the last month or so. He is not on vacation; he has not given up, or left in a huff."

Rick Giles' five weeks in detention [ . . . ]

Detention? Vacation? Huff? Howzabout dismissal?Permanent Recess. The dirt chute . . .

Readers of this thread (perhaps avid silent lurkers like me) may have heard that the red button was depressed on Rick Giles today, over at the New Zealand based internet forum noted above. The stated reason by the Dowager Emperigo: "bad faith."

The ostensible reason is that Rick made a recent series of argumentative assaults on reason, asking for a less doctrinaire anti-Islam rhetoric in light of the Sudanese demonstrations for the death of the Bear Moh-Moh, the evul children and the satanic British temptress.

I've had several online chats with Rick, well before my plunge into serious depression. I was alarmed and charmed by his bluster, and discovered that I liked him. He set me some private challenges which I failed, and although I imagined he might land on my doorstep in Prince George (and as promised, "knock my block off") during the British Columbia leg of his North American tour, he didn't.

I wish I had been less craven, spoken up and met him in the flesh (I have struggled with an attraction/repulsion to online Objectivism, especially fringes and freakshows and the extremists. I have struggled in my life with a combination of harsh, critical cynicism and wells of compassion).

Rick's drop through the trapdoor underscores the ephemeral nature of some online alliances of Objectivists (and objectivishists) -- as hammered home by Robert in varied threads here and there.

I don't know exactly what to make of the red button this time. The week long November operatic ruckus over Elijah Lineberry offers contrast, and I guess all I can do is climb back up the bleachers and heckle. And send Rick a belated "Welcome to the world of pro-am wressling" postcard asking if he wants to be friends with me.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In passing, best regards to my favourite folk here. Although I have backstage hectored and rampaged on even our host, I shall again strive to temper my rampages with affection and humour in 2008 -- while ephemera may be rampant and unremarkable, many slog hard, having made and making lasting impressions on this world, and on the worlds to come, whether by book, art, articles, postings or that often intangible and evanescent -- friendship.

I wish happy Xmases, many festive and loving gatherings, religio-cultural joys and secular high holy days to all!

[Chris Grieb]

Happy Christmas back at you William!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

I know you hate it when I say this, but you are very charming.

Michael

[Philip Coates]

Hey William, good to see you back here.

> I have struggled in my life with a combination of harsh, critical cynicism and wells of compassion.

Don't worry about it. It's part of being human. Happens to all of us.

[Philip Coates]

***HOW -NOT- TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN: LINDSAY, THE HYPOCRITE***

William and others, on the issue of Rick Giles being booted from Solo, I just read the entire thread you linked to. RG's central point was this:

RICK GILES: " Why wouldn't New Zealand Muslims be more concerned with chicken treatment in Foxton than African political affairs? You are the one to think they are connected or to blame for what other practising Muslims do elsewhere. ...you've got the mindset that everybody else in New Zealand, and the world, is the same. Most people have quite enough on their minds seeing to their own material needs and the raising of their children. When they have the right conditions and a bit of leisure time, then they can afford to take up such interests...There would be plenty of time for politics in our lives if we took away hockey practise, giving birth, having sex, mowing the lawns ...A bit of security and spare time allow us to take an interest in Sudanese judicial proceedings. "

In other words -all- of them are not sanctioning the stonings or the abuses or the murders if they are unaware, skeptical, busy with thier own lives, a-political. Even if you disagree with this, it doesn't justify Mr. Perigo, as long as he claims to be running an open forum, free-wheeling debate, when he insults people...but expells whoever makes arguments that irritate him more and more:

LINDSAY PERIGO: "The weasel has been flushed....[He has] a deep streak of evil..."

Only one voice rose to ask why or to object, a young man named Aaron:

"I'm against Rick's 'moderate Muslim apologism'...but he didn't seem to unduly be a dick about discussing it and it's not like Rick's a one-trick pony who doesn't discuss anything else...he's not trying to bring us Catholic arguments for God, not advocating ethnic cleansing, not trying to get us all to discard modern psychology and join L. Ron Hubbard, or other anti-Objectivist viewpoints that have received greater toleration on this site. Why Rick?"

Observe the detailed explanation and answering of questions about the extreme measure of kicking someone off the list==> LINDSAY PERIGO: "Two words, Aaron: Bad faith."

Giles also made an excellent point with this rhetorical question, "By silence one covertly assents to evil?".

And then he pointed out all the issues Glenn Jameson and his other opponents had been silent about. Whether through lack of time or involvement in other issues. "I'm sure there are many worse acts of evil in the world today, and in history, which you have not raised your voice against...By silence one covertly assents to evil? Absurd. One cannot pause for breath without covertly assenting to evil!"

Hell, I've been silent about legal abuses by Hugo Chavez and the Burmese junta and Hillary Clinton's tailor. Color me evil. Guess that's "bad faith" ( a particularly elastic, slippery and stretchable, non-objective phrase constantly used by Mr. Perigo).

[Dragonfly]

Perigo has shown again what a load of crap his bragging about "open debate" on his forum is. Indeed, what a hypocrite. Other randroid groups are at least more honest about their policy of banning dissidents. And with one or two exceptions nobody on that forum dares to take him to task for his arbitrary rulings. So the remaining participants are just as irrational as Perigo or they are cowardly weasels who dare not disagree with their Master. They'll probably try to divert the attention by attacking other people now.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Dragonfly

[Brant Gaede]

Just a bunch of children without adult supervision. Reminds me of "Lord of the Flies." One kid has a counch shell--actually a button--he blows into and makes other kids he doesn't like disappear. Honestly, I tried to read some of that thread and understand what was going on. I failed because it wasn't worth the effort to understand what Giles said then what so-and-said about what Giles said and what Giles said he said and what someone else said Giles said. Oh, yes, the most seemingly civil guy on SOLOP is the resident racist.

--Brant

Edited December 7, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Ellen Stuttle]

And with one or two exceptions nobody on that forum dares to take him to task for his arbitrary rulings. So the remaining participants are just as irrational as Perigo or they are cowardly weasels who dare not disagree with their Master. [....]

I've hardly looked at SOLO in a long while; most recently the only threads I've read are a couple to which I was sent links on which Richard Goode has been participating. Along with him -- he's in a special category, there just to argue particular issues, not an O'ist let alone a Linzite -- I think there might still be a few others who post there for whatever reasons of their own and aren't involved in the battles one way or another (e.g., Marcus Bachler, whose global warming thread I think is still active).

Ellen

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