Remembering what Ayn Rand was like

[Backlighting]

AR "If I thought he were standing someplace now, in front of St. Peter, I would kill myself to be there to tell him how good Frank was."

Considering her breach of marriage vows, considering that she must have known she hurt Frank deeply with her affair with Nathan, I find this statement made on Donahue's show quite puzzling.

Was her affair just hedonism or did she truly love Nathan? Either way, she should have gotten a divorce from Frank rather than make a mockery of their marriage. Another thing I don't understand is why would Frank not insist on a divorce when he found out Ayn was unfaithful? Was he that weak?

Ayn's ideas on morality, at least with regard to marriage, obviously did not pertain to her. How sad.

[Barbara Branden]

AR "If I thought he were standing someplace now, in front of St. Peter, I would kill myself to be there to tell him how good Frank was."

Considering her breach of marriage vows, considering that she must have known she hurt Frank deeply with her affair with Nathan, I find this statement made on Donahue's show quite puzzling.

Was her affair just hedonism or did she truly love Nathan? Either way, she should have gotten a divorce from Frank rather than make a mockery of their marriage. Another thing I don't understand is why would Frank not insist on a divorce when he found out Ayn was unfaithful? Was he that weak?

Ayn's ideas on morality, at least with regard to marriage, obviously did not pertain to her. How sad.

Las Vegas, life is rarely as simple, alternatives rarely as clear cut, as your post suggests. Ayn did not know hos deeply she hurt Frank; perhaps she did not want to know, but that is not quite the same as knowing. Nor would she have accepted the idea that she had made a "mockery" of their marriage. She truly loved Frank -- and she truly loved Nathaniel. And she believed Frank could and did understand and accept that. Can you really look into someone's deeply personal and complex emotional life and say what she "should" have done?

Frank was not a weak man. There were many reasons why he did not seek a divorce. The major one was that he loved Ayn but believed he was not her ideal man, although she insisted that he was. He felt that in that respect he had failed her; he wanted her to be happy, and he decided that if her happiness required that she have an affair with Nathaniel, he would accept that.

Yes, her ideas on morality did pertain to her. That is, had she been considering four other people whom she thought to be in the same position and of the same stature as she believed she and Frank and Nathaniel and I were, she would have advised them to do as she did. Whether she would have been right or wrong to so advise them -- I think she would have been mistaken, and that she was mistaken in her own case -- is a separate issue from whether she applied her moral code to her own actions.

Barbara

[Backlighting]

AR "If I thought he were standing someplace now, in front of St. Peter, I would kill myself to be there to tell him how good Frank was."

Considering her breach of marriage vows, considering that she must have known she hurt Frank deeply with her affair with Nathan, I find this statement made on Donahue's show quite puzzling.

Was her affair just hedonism or did she truly love Nathan? Either way, she should have gotten a divorce from Frank rather than make a mockery of their marriage. Another thing I don't understand is why would Frank not insist on a divorce when he found out Ayn was unfaithful? Was he that weak?

Ayn's ideas on morality, at least with regard to marriage, obviously did not pertain to her. How sad.

Las Vegas, life is rarely as simple, alternatives rarely as clear cut, as your post suggests. Ayn did not know hos deeply she hurt Frank; perhaps she did not want to know, but that is not quite the same as knowing. Nor would she have accepted the idea that she had made a "mockery" of their marriage. She truly loved Frank -- and she truly loved Nathaniel. And she believed Frank could and did understand and accept that. Can you really look into someone's deeply personal and complex emotional life and say what she "should" have done?

Frank was not a weak man. There were many reasons why he did not seek a divorce. The major one was that he loved Ayn but believed he was not her ideal man, although she insisted that he was. He felt that in that respect he had failed her; he wanted her to be happy, and he decided that if her happiness required that she have an affair with Nathaniel, he would accept that.

Yes, her ideas on morality did pertain to her. That is, had she been considering four other people whom she thought to be in the same position and of the same stature as she believed she and Frank and Nathaniel and I were, she would have advised them to do as she did. Whether she would have been right or wrong to so advise them -- I think she would have been mistaken, and that she was mistaken in her own case -- is a separate issue from whether she applied her moral code to her own actions.

Barbara

Barbara,

I appreciate your comments to my post.

I guess I'm from the old school.

I believe in fidelity, otherwise why be married? For me it's either, or.

It's just not fair to all parties involved.

Better to get a divorce and continue the affair honestly, without deceiving anyone.

As for Ayn not knowing she was hurting Frank, perhaps she just, as she often wrote, blanked it out.

My intention is not to bash Ayn. I've been an ardent admirer of her work since I first read Atlas some 40 yrs ago. Throughout the years I think I've read, and enjoyed, everything she published.

I just find this infidelity thing a contradiction to the values she espoused.

Best wishes,

Las Vegas

[howardahood]

Ayn Rand was at least two different people, and they had little in common with each other. As a novelist and philosopher, she was a brilliant intellectual and artist; in her private life she demanded adulation and agreement and was quite vindictive against those who failed to comply with her demands or who dared to challenge her ideas. Rand preached integrity and intellectual independence, but immediately ostracized anyone who practiced those virtues. You can understand how Rand could have had an affair with Nathaniel and then turn against him and try to destroy his career, if you remember one thing: Rand was a woman and a human being, not the Goddess of Reason. Like many geniuses, Rand was an extreme narcissist with only a theoretical interest in the feelings of others. Her husband had to see things the way she did. What she wanted or needed, he was bound to accept. The "Collective" and her other close associates were an assemblage of individuals who were willing to subordinate their minds and feelings to her in return for the privilege of basking in her aura and greatness. Can you imagine Howard Roark or Hank Rearden doing anything like that?

Howard Hood

AR "If I thought he were standing someplace now, in front of St. Peter, I would kill myself to be there to tell him how good Frank was."

Considering her breach of marriage vows, considering that she must have known she hurt Frank deeply with her affair with Nathan, I find this statement made on Donahue's show quite puzzling.

Was her affair just hedonism or did she truly love Nathan? Either way, she should have gotten a divorce from Frank rather than make a mockery of their marriage. Another thing I don't understand is why would Frank not insist on a divorce when he found out Ayn was unfaithful? Was he that weak?

Ayn's ideas on morality, at least with regard to marriage, obviously did not pertain to her. How sad.

Las Vegas, life is rarely as simple, alternatives rarely as clear cut, as your post suggests. Ayn did not know hos deeply she hurt Frank; perhaps she did not want to know, but that is not quite the same as knowing. Nor would she have accepted the idea that she had made a "mockery" of their marriage. She truly loved Frank -- and she truly loved Nathaniel. And she believed Frank could and did understand and accept that. Can you really look into someone's deeply personal and complex emotional life and say what she "should" have done?

Frank was not a weak man. There were many reasons why he did not seek a divorce. The major one was that he loved Ayn but believed he was not her ideal man, although she insisted that he was. He felt that in that respect he had failed her; he wanted her to be happy, and he decided that if her happiness required that she have an affair with Nathaniel, he would accept that.

Yes, her ideas on morality did pertain to her. That is, had she been considering four other people whom she thought to be in the same position and of the same stature as she believed she and Frank and Nathaniel and I were, she would have advised them to do as she did. Whether she would have been right or wrong to so advise them -- I think she would have been mistaken, and that she was mistaken in her own case -- is a separate issue from whether she applied her moral code to her own actions.

Barbara

Edited April 7, 2008 by Howard Hood

[basimpson22]

Marsha,

I had a similar experience with her at one of those lectures, but in this case I had actually been rude or obnoxious with her. She took me aside and quietly, gently pointed out where she disagreed with an esthetic position I took...but without mentioning my rudeness or embarassing me. It occurred to me how few people I knew would do this, Objectivist or not.

Phil

I'm shocked. I had no idea that so many people on this site had personal encounters with Ayn Rand. This is exciting.

[Philip Coates]

This was a good thread from five years ago. Lots of interesting insights from people who seldom post any more.

[jriggenbach]

This was a good thread from five years ago. Lots of interesting insights from people who seldom post any more.

And, of course, the reason they seldom post anymore is that they were insulted and vilified by members who are uncivil.

Right?

JR

[Brant Gaede]

This was a good thread from five years ago. Lots of interesting insights from people who seldom post any more.

And, of course, the reason they seldom post anymore is that they were insulted and vilified by members who are uncivil.

Right?

JR

That's the implication, but Dragonfly is the only one it clearly applies to. George put the blowtorch to him last September.

--Brant

Edited March 7, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Philip Coates]

> the reason they seldom post anymore is that they were insulted and vilified by members who are uncivil..?

...difference between not wanting to come to a cockfight or observe a foodfight because one of the animals went after you or you got splattered and simply preferring another type of activity.

[Brant Gaede]

> the reason they seldom post anymore is that they were insulted and vilified by members who are uncivil..?

...difference between not wanting to come to a cockfight or observe a foodfight because one of the animals went after you or you got splattered and simply preferring another type of activity.

Okay, I guess. They can go to Rebirth of Reason.

--Brant

not sure what's going on there any more

[Philip Coates]

> They can go to Rebirth of Reason.

Nope.

[caroljane]

> They can go to Rebirth of Reason.

Nope.

I got Rebirth of Reason confused with Rule of Reason recently and ended up on Rule. Whoever Rule is , thinks Somali pirates are spearheads of Islamist jihad. Creepy.

[anamous Cares]

Flower was a good metaphor for growth. The song is obviously about sexual responsibility, so that was the main metaphor. Also, it's like knowing who someone has been and remembering and appreciating that, but really appreciating what they are now even more.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Anamous,

I have no idea how your post relates to this thread. Nor do I know what song you are talking about.

Michael

[Jules Troy]

Well that was almost interesting, reading old Phillis rants..