'300'

[blackhorse]

I just saw the film '300' last Saturday night. WOW! This is the best movie I've seen since 'Casino Royale'. It is an incredible, heroic epic that inspires one to stand tall for what it is right, even against seemingly impossible odds. Highly recommended for Objectivists. I can't wait to see it again.

[BAMF]

My history class has been trying to convince my teach to take us on a field trip to see this, but to no avail. I will be seeing it with my sister when she gets into town this Friday. Glad to hear that it's worth seeing!

EDIT: I just looked at this movie on rottentomatoes.com and here's a funny little "review" I found:

"I feel comfortable enough in my masculinity to say that if I had to stand in the presence of these men for more than ten seconds, I'd spontaneously grow a pair of ovaries."

Edited March 13, 2007 by Kori

[blackhorse]

This movie is intense, to say the least. http://coxandforkum.com/ has an excellent cartoon parallel of the heroic Spartans of '300' and the appeasers, or Persians, of today.

[John Dailey]

Blackhorse:

~ One thing I've got to say (and I think the ACTUAL '300'-of-then would agree) is that the Persians-of-then were definitely NOT 'appeasers.' They did lose (and were quite willing to continue doing so...for a while) mucho more than merely 300 in that famous fight, whatever one thinks of Herodotus' estimations.

~ Hadn't seen this I-have-no-doubt not-to-be-missed movie yet, but, did catch the History Channel's 'History in Focus' 1/2 hr 'analysis' on the movie. Quite interesting, overall. The only 'flaw' (if one doesn't grant any 'artistic license') was the lack of maximum armor the Hoplites used; expectably, their chests (et al) would have been covered with bronze plates, but, for macho-appearance-effect movie-wise, weren't.

~ I envy those who've seen it in IMAX.

LLAP

J:D

P.S: THEY were 'Warriors'! Think we have any today?

[Danneskjold]

You mean the historians didn't point out that the Persians were also human? Also that the Persians were VERY lightly armed compared to the heavily armed Spartan hoplites (their shields were made out of wicker, like the chair stuff except tighter woven)? Also that the Spartan's speciality in combat wasn't as individuals but as units? An x-Spartan testified in the Persian king's court that one Spartan alone was a excellent warrior, but it was when they were in their battle formation with their group that they were unstoppable. How about that Sparta, after Thermopylae, was completely militaristic? I can point these flaws out after the trailer, seems like the History Channel isn't doing great research.

[John Dailey]

Jeff:

~ Interestingly, for The History Channel, in THAT show...nope.

~ However, elsewhere they certainly are.

The 300 + a little help from a couple thousand friends

LLAP

J:D

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I wasn't really interested in this film, but because of the following story, I got real interested.

Iranian official lashes out at Hollywood movie "300" for insulting Persian civilization

People's Daily Online

March 12, 2007

From the article:

Javad Shamqadri, an art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, accused the new movie of being "part of a comprehensive U.S. psychological war aimed at Iranian culture", said the report.

Shamqadri was quoted as saying "following the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Hollywood and cultural authorities in the U.S. initiated studies to figure out how to attack Iranian culture," adding "certainly, the recent movie is a product of such studies."

Psychological warfare? Ooh boy. Now I gotta see this movie. I thought the Spartans used swords and stuff.

Michael

[emb021]

Keep in mind that "300" is Frank Miller's version of the story, '300 Spartans'. The movie was based visually on what Miller did in his graphic novel. The look of the Spartans, Perseans, etc, was his.

Wonder what Miller thinks of the accusation???

[John Dailey]

MSK:

~ Yes, read AND heard about that. Funny in its stupidity. Limbaugh commented that this complaint shows that Iran now has Hollywood 'in its sights' because of this movie. Man, given how they regard cartoonists, what might they do with H'wood? Suicide-bomb the sign? (Nm that Sparta has NOTHING to do with Iran other than history of geography, but...what's reason got to do with anything in evangelistic polemics?) --- If they weren't so self-frenziedly rabid, the complaint'd be funny.

LLAP

J:D

[Ross Barlow]

Just saw *300* today. Outstanding! I loved it. (There is a bit of Rand-related trivia connected to this movie that might not be well known.) This film is not impeccably accurate historically, but the general spirit of the ancient Greeks is represented, and the rigorous Spartan combat ethos and courage are made graphic. ("Graphic" in that it is bloodier than Hell.)

The screenplay for *300* was based on the graphic novel series by Frank Miller. I do not know if anyone here has yet mentioned the influence of Ayn Rand on Frank Miller. The IMBd (Internet Movie Database) says in its mini-biography of Miller that he "has said that the Romantic Manifesto by Ayn Rand, a book of collective essays about art and romanticism, helped him to determine how he'd go about creating his heroics.”

The bio section on Miller also mentions his influence from Mickey Spillane, as well as similar authors.

“Go, tell the Spartans….”

-Ross Barlow.

[Danneskjold]

I just saw it today with my friend. Wow. All I can really say. That movie was incredible beyond all belief. I REALLY hope that comes out as a video game. I KNEW there had to be some sort of Randian element in there somewhere as soon as King Leonidas started calling the Persians "mystics". My favorite part of the movie was when King Leonidas was talking to the Athenian guy and the Athenian was reprimanding him for bringing so few soldiers. King Leonidas asks three Athenians what their professions are getting the responses "potter" "sculpter" and "blacksmith". He then yells, "SPARTANS, WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?" and is answered by a resounding "AHHROO AHHROO AHHROO". It was unreal, I loved it.

[studiodekadent]

Too bad in reality Sparta was a military dictatorship based on collectivism. Athens was much more civilized.

And really, that portrayal of Xerxes as a genderblending conniseur of debauchery, WHY is that a bad thing?

[BaalChatzaf]

I just saw the film '300' last Saturday night. WOW! This is the best movie I've seen since 'Casino Royale'. It is an incredible, heroic epic that inspires one to stand tall for what it is right, even against seemingly impossible odds. Highly recommended for Objectivists. I can't wait to see it again.

The idea of Spartans fighting for Freedom is almost an oxymoron. Sparta was one of the most repressed societies that ever existed and it lived on the slave labor of the Helots. No doubt the Spartan fought for Independence (from Persian domination) as did the Athenians. But Freedom and Liberty? Not a chance.

Even Athens which was far freer than Sparta was not a democracy. Only one in six adult males living in the Athenian City-State had any standing in its governance. Five sixths of the population were either resident aliens whose presence was tolerated and found useful or -slaves-. Slavery was alive and well in Athens in those days. Aristotle even defended slavery.

Don't get me wrong. I -loved- the movie. It was exciting, it was bad-ass, it got my juices flowing. Personally, I admire the way of the warrior, the man who puts his blood and vital organs between his family and community on the one hand, and the outsider who would come to conquer or destroy them. All hail the Warrior! The stand of the 300 is Sparta's lasting contribution to human culture along with its military memes. Spartan military modalities are -the- model for military organization in every subsequent society, be it fee or be it tyrannical. For example; the Romans were organized in the manner of the Spartan Hoplites.

Here is Simonides verse on the Spartan stand in memory of Spartan bravery:

Ώ ξειν', ἀγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα, τοις κοίνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι

Oh Stranger passing by, go tell the Spartans....

Graven on the statue of Leonidas at Thermopolea was the Spartan response to the Persian demand that they Spartans lay down their weapons.

"Μολών λαβέ" ("Come and take them!").

Damn! That gives me goose bumps.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Blackhorse:

~ Hadn't seen this I-have-no-doubt not-to-be-missed movie yet, but, did catch the History Channel's 'History in Focus' 1/2 hr 'analysis' on the movie. Quite interesting, overall. The only 'flaw' (if one doesn't grant any 'artistic license') was the lack of maximum armor the Hoplites used; expectably, their chests (et al) would have been covered with bronze plates, but, for macho-appearance-effect movie-wise, weren't.

Perhaps the movie should have been entitled -600 Pectorals-

Bob Kolker

[John Dailey]

Bob:

~ Perhaps you should avoid all 'historical fiction' and concentrate only on documentaries.

LLAP

J:D

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob:

~ Perhaps you should avoid all 'historical fiction' and concentrate only on documentaries.

LLAP

J:D

Nah! 300 was a hoot and half. I loved it. The action and the soundtrack were spectacular. Beholding the Lacedeamonians (Spartans) helps me get in touch with my Inner Fascist.

When I was a little kid my life ambition was to be a bombardier on a B-17 or B-29. The thought of dropping hot flaming death on my enemies filled my youthful imagination with delight. I wanted to be Hitler's worst nightmare: A Jew with a Norden Bombsight. and Tojo's nemesis, an American with an incendiary bomb. When I grew up a bit I wanted to be a mercenary or professional soldier and kill enemies for pay. Alas! Chronic bronchial asthma finished off that dream. So I became an applied mathematician. One of my "babies" is a terrain tracking algorithm which, to the best of my knowledge, is still in use in our cruise missiles. So I got my wish. My efforts have lead to the death of thousands of our enemies. It looks like I did my bit for King and Country after all. My fondest wish (one that will never be realized) is to fire a nuclear weapon that will land on Meccah in the middle of the Haj. Aiming point: The Q'abah. In my next life (I won't bet on that!) I want to be Spartan. AH-ROO! AH-ROO! AH-ROOH! or as we Americans say HOO-rah!

The Way of the Warrior is the best way.

Ba'al Chatzaff

Molon Lahbe! (come and take them! [i.e. the Spartan's weapons]).

Loh tepohl shaynit Matzadah -- Matzadah will not fall a second time.

Conan; What is best? To smash the enemy. to drive them before us and to hear the lamentations of their women.

Edited April 18, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Richard Uhler]

... My fondest wish (one that will never be realized) is to fire a nuclear weapon that will land on Meccah in the middle of the Haj. Aiming point: The Q'abah....

This led my spouse and I to discuss: if Mecca and the artifacts-of-worship located there were to be destroyed, what would be the effect on Islam? (I suspect there wouldn't be much of a long-term effect; the anniversary would become a Muslim holiday, the tale of "The Destruction Of The Holy City" would become part of the myth-cycle of the religion, and Muslims would continue to make the Haj to the ruins.)

Edited April 22, 2007 by Richard Uhler

[JennaW]

I saw this on IMAX. The special effects were really cool (v. photographic) and intense, but the dialogue was really, really lame. I almost wished that were no speaking lines in the movie at all, as I think it would have been understandable without them.

[John Dailey]

~ Interesting. This is precisely the way Hitchcock and Spielberg have made clear (one way or another) as to how THEY see movies being properly made: dialogue is essentially superfluous. 'Silent-movies' is what they were clearly reared on.

~ Then, of course, there's the 'detective' stories down the lines of THE THIN MAN (or, the COLUMBO tv-series) which inherently require dialogue.

~ Then, there's G. Lucas with his SW movie-series where even the actors had a prob with his (can we say 'patched in'?)...'dialogue.' Clearly not his forte.

~ I'll be buying the disc(s) of 300 when the DVD's on sale end of this month. I'll check it out on 'mute'...2nd time viewing.

LLAP

J:D

[BaalChatzaf]

~ Interesting. This is precisely the way Hitchcock and Spielberg have made clear (one way or another) as to how THEY see movies being properly made: dialogue is essentially superfluous. 'Silent-movies' is what they were clearly reared on.

~ Then, of course, there's the 'detective' stories down the lines of THE THIN MAN (or, the COLUMBO tv-series) which inherently require dialogue.

~ Then, there's G. Lucas with his SW movie-series where even the actors had a prob with his (can we say 'patched in'?)...'dialogue.' Clearly not his forte.

~ I'll be buying the disc(s) of 300 when the DVD's on sale end of this month. I'll check it out on 'mute'...2nd time viewing.

LLAP

J:D

Turn the volume down and use subtitles. Since I am more than half deaf this is the way I watch most movies.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Matus1976]

Too bad in reality Sparta was a military dictatorship based on collectivism. Athens was much more civilized.

And really, that portrayal of Xerxes as a genderblending conniseur of debauchery, WHY is that a bad thing?

The idea of Spartans fighting for Freedom is almost an oxymoron. Sparta was one of the most repressed societies that ever existed and it lived on the slave labor of the Helots. No doubt the Spartan fought for Independence (from Persian domination) as did the Athenians. But Freedom and Liberty? Not a chance.

This is an unfair and disingenous moral charge to make, ALL SOCIETIES of the ancient world had slavery, in almost EVERY SOCIETY almost EVERY PERSON was a slave to the king. Many societies (like Egypt) did not even have a *word* for "freedom" *ONLY* the Ancient Greek city states had a concept of freedom and liberty and integrated it into their society. No they were not all free, but don't forget that women in the US did not get the right to vote until the 20's and black men until after the civil war. Give the ancient hellenes a break, the rest of the world would not match their limited gains toward freedom for probably 1500 years. Would we chide a movie about the bravery of union soldiers in the American Civil war by saying "whatever, women couldnt vote" Every salient step toward freedom should be celebrated.

This is one of the greatest movies ever made, go, enjoy it, love it.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Matus1976

[BaalChatzaf]

This is one of the greatest movies ever made, go, enjoy it, love it.

I loved every minute of the movie. It was great entertainment and shitty history.

Freedom and Sparta simply do not mix. Athens suffered three putches (coups) by pro-Spartan factions. In each case life in the city suffered and each were overthrown by counter-coups lead by middle class forces. Socrates was an indirect victim of one of these counter-coups. When the middle class dudes regained power they held Socrates responsible for teaching the leaders of the pro-Spartan factions. Socrates, himself, detested democracy. Socrates' student Plato distilled Socrates (and his own) disdain for democracy (such as it was in a largely slave state) in -The Republic- which has been the field manual for every political revolution in modern times from the French Revolution on. Robespierre was a Philosopher King. He finally got what was coming to him.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited July 20, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Matus1976]

I loved every minute of the movie. It was great entertainment and shitty history.

Freedom and Sparta simply do not mix. Athens suffered three putches (coups) by pro-Spartan factions. In each case life in the city suffered and each were overthrown by counter-coups lead by middle class forces. Socrates was an indirect victim of one of these counter-coups. When the middle class dudes regained power they held Socrates responsible for teaching the leaders of the pro-Spartan factions. Socrates, himself, detested democracy. Socrates' student Plato distilled Socrates (and his own) disdain for democracy (such as it was in a largely slave state) in -The Republic- which has been the field manual for every political revolution in modern times from the French Revolution on. Robespierre was a Philosopher King. He finally got what was coming to him.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Shitty History? Was Xerxes 10' tall? Did he have a guy with Bone Saw arms to chope of the heads of bad generals? Cmon, this movie is NOT A HISTORY LESSON, it is art which is meant to emphasize the highest ideals set in a historical context.

The last time Sparta conquered Athens, led by Lysander, instead of slaughtering all the men and putting the women and children into slavery, Lysander forgave the Athenians for their relentless power grabs and attempts at Empire because they fought together against the Persian armies. Remember Syracuse! hello, I wouldnt hold Athens up as the highest torch of freedom either. Nevertheless, only Athens and Sparta and the other Greek city states even had the concept of Freedom. This film emphasized the only bastion of freedom in an entire world of slavery. This movie is not a history lesson, so don't judge it as such.

[BaalChatzaf]

Shitty History? Was Xerxes 10' tall? Did he have a guy with Bone Saw arms to chope of the heads of bad generals? Cmon, this movie is NOT A HISTORY LESSON, it is art which is meant to emphasize the highest ideals set in a historical context.

The last time Sparta conquered Athens, led by Lysander, instead of slaughtering all the men and putting the women and children into slavery, Lysander forgave the Athenians for their relentless power grabs and attempts at Empire because they fought together against the Persian armies. Remember Syracuse! hello, I wouldnt hold Athens up as the highest torch of freedom either. Nevertheless, only Athens and Sparta and the other Greek city states even had the concept of Freedom. This film emphasized the only bastion of freedom in an entire world of slavery. This movie is not a history lesson, so don't judge it as such.

I agree. Athens was 5/6 th unfree. The women were generally treated like shit and baby making machines (with some notable exceptions), and the rest of the population consisted of slaves and resident aliens who had no participation rights in the councils of the city-state. So only 1/6 of the population had any say in this wonderful "democracy".

And we both agree, the move -300- was macho over the top entertainment and not history.

That Athenians were also very foolish. Their unnecessary expedition to Syracusa cost them dearly. It is very reminiscent of the U.S. adventures in Iraq. It was uncalled for and it costing us dearly. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to relive them.

Ba'al Chatazaf

Edited July 20, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[John Dailey]

Baal:

~ Sorry to hear about your 'half-deaf'ness. One thing I know about movies is that for 'dramatic impact', sound is used quite extensively (sometimes overly, so as to cover lame-o scenes); mainly through music, though sound-fx also is relevently stressed in certain scenes. Presumably such is to contribute to a 'you-are-there' experience...for most of us.

LLAP

J:D

Edited July 23, 2007 by John Dailey