What if living is too painful to make it worth it?

[Nerian]

7 hours ago, anthony said:

Think about it. If you haven't picked up on value (in yourself, in life) being central to "not finding life at all worth living", you need to think.

I frankly disagree. I can see the logic. It doesn't make the experience of living feel worth it. Logic and thinking isn't going to change how the experience feels.

I can agree with your sterile logic all day. It doesn't change a thing about how life feels moment to moment.

[Brant Gaede]

3 hours ago, Nerian said:

I frankly disagree. I can see the logic. It doesn't make the experience of living feel worth it. Logic and thinking isn't going to change how the experience feels.

I can agree with your sterile logic all day. It doesn't change a thing about how life feels moment to moment.

You might try Gestalt Therapy. Then the "sterile logic" might be a value to you for you'd have something real to apply it to.

--Brant

[anthony]

7 hours ago, Nerian said:

I frankly disagree. I can see the logic. It doesn't make the experience of living feel worth it. Logic and thinking isn't going to change how the experience feels.

I can agree with your sterile logic all day. It doesn't change a thing about how life feels moment to moment.

The only sterile logic I know of is permitting the separation of one's logic from one's experience. That would be a sterile, impotent 'logic'. They are a unified state: mind and body, logic and experience, theory and practice -- when you make them to be so.

How are you going to go about this, otherwise? (Re-iterating that you should be taking a multi-faceted approach, advised and helped by medical intervention). Your mind has to play a major part, a mind not separate from your being, nor from living, nor from your values, and therefore not separated from your emotions? I emphasize values and purpose again, with the desired end, you will agree, of slowly rekindling a passion for life.  

You've made no mention of recommendations made to you here of Branden, or what you've read of his. He is famed for his output on self-esteem, but that's not all I think he should be well-studied for. His works are comprehensively embracing in all respects. From a substantial philosophical base (you will recognize), he has a profound knowledge about consciousness wrt human existence. I know it will be of great help. You aren't alone in what you've been going through and from my past I am not unfamiliar with the general sense (if not your particulars) of one's loss of purpose and a cause or energy to live, mostly from someone who I was close to.

[Nerian]

54 minutes ago, anthony said:

The only sterile logic I know of is permitting the separation of one's logic from one's experience. That would be a sterile, impotent 'logic'. They are a unified state: mind and body, logic and experience, theory and practice -- when you make them to be so.

How are you going to go about this, otherwise? (Re-iterating that you should be taking a multi-faceted approach, advised and helped by medical intervention). Your mind has to play a major part, a mind not separate from your being, nor from living, nor from your values, and therefore not separated from your emotions? I emphasize values and purpose again, with the desired end, you will agree, of slowly rekindling a passion for life.  

You've made no mention of recommendations made to you here of Branden, or what you've read of his. He is famed for his output on self-esteem, but that's not all I think he should be well-studied for. His works are comprehensively embracing in all respects. From a substantial philosophical base (you will recognize), he has a profound knowledge about consciousness wrt human existence. I know it will be of great help. You aren't alone in what you've been going through and from my past I am not unfamiliar with the general sense (if not your particulars) of one's loss of purpose and a cause or energy to live, mostly from someone who I was close to.

I've read "Six Pillars of Self Esteem", and listened to the audio book, and I found it very revelatory. I really liked it. It's very useful if you already enjoy living, but not of much use if you find life to be endless drudgery. The ideas in the book were helpful for my self esteem, no doubt. But that's not really my problem. My problem is just that there's nothing in life worth the pain of living it. and I can't even envisage any life that would be worth living.

I've gone about my business and found it to be drag. That was the question. Let's say you follow the logic and agree with it, you set about achieving life, and you find the whole affair utterly miserable.

Quote

The only sterile logic I know of is permitting the separation of one's logic from one's experience.

It's not a matter of permitting, it just is that way. Perhaps you have such power over your own mind but I don't. My emotions are not within my direct control. If they were, there would be no problem. Why would I want to feel miserable all the time? That makes no sense. I know not how to control my own mind that way. Perhaps you can explain it. 

[Wolf DeVoon]

We play the cards we're dealt. I don't particularly envy anyone else's fate. One life was plenty, thanks. Slightly less than 25,000 days so far, a big inventory of adventures and disasters and modest triumphs. What else can life offer, except a spiritual treasury of wandering in the world, making decisions? Whether one wins or loses at the fabulously endowed gaming table of competition with 6 billion others, there is no alternative but to play the cards we were dealt by DNA in a place and time not of our choosing.

[Brant Gaede]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 11:37 AM, Nerian said:

I've read "Six Pillars of Self Esteem", and listened to the audio book, and I found it very revelatory. I really liked it. It's very useful if you already enjoy living, but not of much use if you find life to be endless drudgery. The ideas in the book were helpful for my self esteem, no doubt. But that's not really my problem. My problem is just that there's nothing in life worth the pain of living it. and I can't even envisage any life that would be worth living.

I've gone about my business and found it to be drag. That was the question. Let's say you follow the logic and agree with it, you set about achieving life, and you find the whole affair utterly miserable.

It's not a matter of permitting, it just is that way. Perhaps you have such power over your own mind but I don't. My emotions are not within my direct control. If they were, there would be no problem. Why would I want to feel miserable all the time? That makes no sense. I know not how to control my own mind that way. Perhaps you can explain it. 

Well, just how did you use and apply Branden's book?

--Brant

[jts]

I heard somewhere that sometimes you can beat the blues (depression) with greens (leafy veggies).

 

[Nerian]

21 hours ago, Wolf DeVoon said:

We play the cards we're dealt. I don't particularly envy anyone else's fate. One life was plenty, thanks. Slightly less than 25,000 days so far, a big inventory of adventures and disasters and modest triumphs. What else can life offer, except a spiritual treasury of wandering in the world, making decisions? Whether one wins or loses at the fabulously endowed gaming table of competition with 6 billion others, there is no alternative but to play the cards we were dealt by DNA in a place and time not of our choosing.

Suicide is always an option.

[Peter]

51 minutes ago, Nerian said:

Suicide is always an option.

Suicide is always an option, since we have free will, but free will also tells us that we evolved to survive whenever possible. Therefor I would suggest that some “feelings of doom” could be physical in origin. If I were depressed I would seek medical assistance just as I would take a pill for a cold or get a shot for the flu. Before I got deeply depressed I would seek help from a doctor. When I go to the VA there is usually a group meeting to cope with war trauma and nobody hides that fact. Life offers options. Death is final and not to be sought as an “out.”   

[anthony]

14 hours ago, jts said:

I heard somewhere that sometimes you can beat the blues (depression) with greens (leafy veggies).

 

Magnesium. Taken daily (inc. calcium) in a supplement. The deficiency of it is widespread, not well known is its essentiality to the brain and nervous system, a deficiency contributing to fatigue, anxiety and depression. I can't recommend it highly enough.

[anthony]

On 2/9/2018 at 2:36 AM, Wolf DeVoon said:

We play the cards we're dealt. I don't particularly envy anyone else's fate. One life was plenty, thanks. Slightly less than 25,000 days so far, a big inventory of adventures and disasters and modest triumphs. What else can life offer, except a spiritual treasury of wandering in the world, making decisions? Whether one wins or loses at the fabulously endowed gaming table of competition with 6 billion others, there is no alternative but to play the cards we were dealt by DNA in a place and time not of our choosing.

I go along only partially with your metaphor, 'playing the cards we are dealt', insofar as there certain things which are 'given': metaphysically (absolutely) and individually (somewhat). We accept that at the end of The Game everyone in it will be a loser. But "the competition" is just not so, Wolf. Fundamentally you don't compare your hand to others' hands to take the pot, it just seems that way superficially and in the short run. Comparisons (with others) are odious and subjective. There are no common 'rules' (e.g. kings beating queens, etc.) except the ones you decide in reality, the only rule. Over and above that, you have some, often untapped, power to change the strength of your hand with a switch from old mindset, acts and habits. Further, how you play out your improved 'hand' has many, many more options in reality than are apparent at first look - even when we get older and life seems to narrow down, how one plays his/her game and still chooses, makes and finds his values is everything and - and, by god - each can be his own winner.

[anthony]

13 hours ago, Peter said:

Suicide is always an option, since we have free will, but free will also tells us that we evolved to survive whenever possible. Therefor I would suggest that some “feelings of doom” could be physical in origin. If I were depressed I would seek medical assistance just as I would take a pill for a cold or get a shot for the flu. Before I got deeply depressed I would seek help from a doctor. When I go to the VA there is usually a group meeting to cope with war trauma and nobody hides that fact. Life offers options. Death is final and not to be sought as an “out.”   

"Life offers options. Death is final and not to be sought as an "out"."

"It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away everything he's got, and everything he's ever gonna have". ('Unforgiven')

[anthony]

On 2/8/2018 at 8:37 PM, Nerian said:

I've read "Six Pillars of Self Esteem", and listened to the audio book, and I found it very revelatory. I really liked it. It's very useful if you already enjoy living, but not of much use if you find life to be endless drudgery. The ideas in the book were helpful for my self esteem, no doubt. But that's not really my problem. My problem is just that there's nothing in life worth the pain of living it. and I can't even envisage any life that would be worth living.

I've gone about my business and found it to be drag. That was the question. Let's say you follow the logic and agree with it, you set about achieving life, and you find the whole affair utterly miserable.

It's not a matter of permitting, it just is that way. Perhaps you have such power over your own mind but I don't. My emotions are not within my direct control. If they were, there would be no problem. Why would I want to feel miserable all the time? That makes no sense. I know not how to control my own mind that way. Perhaps you can explain it. 

Heh, I have the feeling you'll have read of most of the words written (in O'ist circles) before I even suggest any to read... 

This gives me an idea, following too from your usage of "logic", and its present 'sterility'. 

The question I have is: how well do you know the meaning of the "words". How well do you know what is "logic"? Because I am unsure if you know that Objectivist logic is much more than the logic of syllogisms, always referred to by people. It is rather, *conceptual logic* with one law - of non-contradiction - for the purpose of formation of your concepts (from percepts, identified and integrated) and for the single sake of your "knowledge", in the total sense.

The conceptual structure is the essential epistemological base of the "self" or "ego", I think. For this, I suggested you returning to simple perceptions and identifications again. Word-concepts are your tools of identity and they don't have meaning if not "grounded" constantly. Principles and concepts will be "ideals", of no use and probably self-sabotaging, if not implemented and applied regularly to your experience and reality. I venture that conceptual logic being cut adrift from application to experience could be cause - or the effect - of depression (cognitively) and a loss of "self", self-value, external values, and the types of misery and emotions you describe, and I have seen, which will automatically follow.

In line, the psychological base, explained by Branden:

"By "ego"...I mean the unifying center of awareness, the center of consciousness, the ultimate sense of "I", that which perceives reality, preserves the inner continuity of one's own existence, and generates a sense of personal identity". (p. 74, HTS).

(I've read 6 Pillars long ago and think it's a more practical self-esteem book, than Honoring. Invaluable of course, in its way, and HTS remains a must-read).

[Peter]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:42 AM, anthony said:

Magnesium. Taken daily (inc. calcium) in a supplement. The deficiency of it is widespread, not well known is its essentiality to the brain and nervous system, a deficiency contributing to fatigue, anxiety and depression. I can't recommend it highly enough.

But it also makes you poop.

[Peter]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:35 AM, anthony said:

"Life offers options. Death is final and not to be sought as an "out"."

"It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. You take away everything he's got, and everything he's ever gonna have". ('Unforgiven')

I wouldn’t hurt a fly. A few times I have had a veterinarian put down a very sick, old, or hurt pet and that is a tough decision to make. My OL cat logo, Sparks, has sun damaged ears that scab over and bleed and I couldn’t even bring myself to follow the Vets advice and have a portion of pre cancerous ear removed.

Unfortunately, there are no long range Tasers for snipers to use, and I suppose using knock out gas would be against the Geneva Convention too. I would not start a war if I were POTUS but I would respond in self defense. President Trump did the right thing by targeting Syrian sites after Assad murdered his own civilians, but we need to be consistent with all totalitarian dictatorships.

Peter

An oldie from me. Remember the TV show “What’s my Line?”   

I wish Dennis May would start posting again. He would get this. Year’s ago, Dennis tested Atlantis for its Loyalty and Toughness. Little did he know that intelligence agencies and the 1950’s CBS Network were listening in on us. Our program begins . . . .

John Dailey: Welcome to “What’s My Line,” brought to you by Kellogg’s of Battle Creek, Michigan, the CIA, and the NSA. Panel, score one point for each yes answer, and minus one for each no.

Kitty Carlyle: Unknown Contestant, have you ever fired a handgun?

Unknown person:  Yes

Ann Francis: Do you own a handgun?

Unknown person:  Yes

Bennet Cerf: Do you know the difference between a semi-automatic and a fully automatic weapon?

Unknown person:  Yes

Dorothy Kilgallen:  Have you ever been around or known people who own machine guns?

Unknown person: Yes. Well, ah, I slept next to one for about three straight months, but Uncle Sam owned it.

Ann Francis: Have you known people, like your Uncle Sam, who use high explosives as part of their jobs?

Unknown person (Sweat is appearing on the contestant’s forehead): Yes

Kitty Carlyle: Have you seen high explosives used?

Unknown person:  I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.

Bennett Cerf: Have you seen common military weapons of mass destruction tested?

Unknown person:  Only on television and in training films. Say, weren’t you with the folks who published “The Fountainhead,” by Ayn Rand?

Bennett Cerf: Yes, I was privileged to publish that great book. I especially liked the character of Elsworth Tooey for his brilliance and menace. Kind of reminds me of Hannibal Lector. Wait a minute. Stop it, “Unknown Contestant”. Stop trying to sidetrack this investigation!

Dorothy Kilgallen: Have you yourself designed weapons of mass destruction?

Unknown person:  No. That X-Files episode was not about me! I did not do it! I will not do it again.

Ann Francis: Have you known people who design nuclear weapons or have tested them? Up the voltage.

Unknown person: No! Oh damn! I do know one. Dennis. Dennis May. I couldn’t stop him, may God forgive me. It must be him you are after.

Kitty Carlyle: Do you or did you not have relatives who worked on the Manhattan project or know people who dropped the A-bomb on Japan?

Unknown person: My father is dead. I have nothing else to say.

We now conclude this broadcast to bring you a Conalrad Attack signal. Duck and Cover in the event of a Nuclear Attack. Stay tuned to CBS for further messages.

Live long and prosper,
Unknown Contestant

Notes from Jimbo Wales. CONELRAD (Control of Electromagnetic Radiation) is a former method of emergency broadcasting to the public of the United States in the event of enemy attack during the Cold War. It was intended to allow continuous broadcast of civil defense information to the public using radio or TV stations, while rapidly switching the transmitter stations to make the broadcasts unsuitable for Soviet bombers that might attempt to home in on the signals (as was done during World War II, when German radio stations, based in or near cities, were used as beacons by pilots of bombers).

U.S. president Harry S. Truman established CONELRAD in 1951. After the development of intercontinental ballistic missiles reduced the likelihood of a bomber attack, CONELRAD was replaced by the Emergency Broadcast System on August 5, 1963, which was later replaced with the Emergency Alert System on January 1, 1997; all have been administered by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).^[1]

Unlike its successors, the EBS and EAS, CONELRAD was never intended to be used for severe weather warnings or local civil emergencies.

[anthony]

53 minutes ago, Peter said:

But it also makes you poop.

Regular movements over 60, what's to worry? (And I thought it was the espressos).

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On 2/9/2018 at 4:34 PM, Nerian said:

Suicide is always an option.

N,

Suicide is not an option as a solution. But most people who contemplate suicide think of it that way. They have a problem they want to solve and suicide is how they perceive a way out. Very few want death underneath. They just want the bad stuff--the problem--to stop. 

(I say this according to some studies I have read and suicidal people I have known.)

The irony is if a suicide attempt is successful, nothing for the person who committed suicide is solved since that person doesn't exist anymore. His or her problems remain for others to deal with--and the act even creates new problems for them.

Suicide is not walking away from a problem because, once complete, there is no movement or awareness. Suicide is death and the dead have no values. They don't have solutions. They are not relevant.

Besides, talk or listen to suicide survivors and you will see the old Mash song lies:

Here are the lyrics from the YouTube description to this video:

Quote

Suicide is painless
by Johnny Mandel and Mike Altman

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...
that suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.
suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin.
suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please......

For some reason this song caught on when I was in high school. (Yeah, that dates me pretty goddam well dated.) Since it was the theme song for MASH (movie and TV show), it's message is tongue-in-cheek. Apropos, I still laugh about a moment in the movie, the "kiss my hot lips" scene.  

On a strange but true note, I never knew until recently that the words were "suicide is painless." I had always heard them as "suicide is dangerous." What's worse, I think my version is better.

Michael

[Nerian]

4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

N,

Suicide is not an option as a solution. But most people who contemplate suicide think of it that way. They have a problem they want to solve and suicide is how they perceive a way out. Very few want death underneath. They just want the bad stuff--the problem--to stop. 

(I say this according to some studies I have read and suicidal people I have known.)

The irony is if a suicide attempt is successful, nothing for the person who committed suicide is solved since that person doesn't exist anymore. His or her problems remain for others to deal with--and the act even creates new problems for them.

Suicide is not walking away from a problem because, once complete, there is no movement or awareness. Suicide is death and the dead have no values. They don't have solutions. They are not relevant.

Besides, talk or listen to suicide survivors and you will see the old Mash song lies:

Here are the lyrics from the YouTube description to this video:

For some reason this song caught on when I was in high school. (Yeah, that dates me pretty goddam well dated.) Since it was the theme song for MASH (movie and TV show), it's message is tongue-in-cheek. Apropos, I still laugh about a moment in the movie, the "kiss my hot lips" scene.  

On a strange but true note, I never knew until recently that the words were "suicide is painless." I had always heard them as "suicide is dangerous." What's worse, I think my version is better.

Michael

If life is the problem, then not life is surely a solution. ;) 

[Jon Letendre]

1 hour ago, Nerian said:

If life is the problem, then not life is surely a solution. ;) 

Hi Nerian.

life isn’t the problem, bad life is.

You are in your house in the pitch dark.

Your house isn’t the problem, the electrical box is.

Don’t burn down the house, correct the box.

There are no electricians here, Nerian. Any impressions otherwise were purely cases of blowing smoke up your ass.

Please stop debating and go to a medical doctor. For all you know you have a tumor. See a doctor. Stop talking.

[Nerian]

1 hour ago, Jon Letendre said:

Hi Nerian.

life isn’t the problem, bad life is.

You are in your house in the pitch dark.

Your house isn’t the problem, the electrical box is.

Don’t burn down the house, correct the box.

There are no electricians here, Nerian. Any impressions otherwise were purely cases of blowing smoke up your ass.

Please stop debating and go to a medical doctor. For all you know you have a tumor. See a doctor. Stop talking.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's so hard to believe anyone is gonna have a cure for the pain of living.

[Jon Letendre]

4 hours ago, Nerian said:

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's so hard to believe anyone is gonna have a cure for the pain of living.

I’m sure it is hard to believe. When in the pitch dark it is hard to believe anything.

None of us know how to fix it, no one you’ve casually met knows, you’re not going to just bump into an electrician, you have to look them up and call them.

[Nerian]

3 hours ago, Jon Letendre said:

I’m sure it is hard to believe. When in the pitch dark it is hard to believe anything.

None of us know how to fix it, no one you’ve casually met knows, you’re not going to just bump into an electrician, you have to look them up and call them.

I like your analogy. It's very insightful. Thank you.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

15 hours ago, Nerian said:

If life is the problem, then not life is surely a solution. ;) 

Nerian,

My observation is going to be sophomoric and nit-picking, but it embodies a principle.

Not life is surely a solution? For whom? It can only be a solution for the living. But when one is no longer living, it can't be a problem or a solution.

The principle is the difference between a goal (solving a problem) and a standard (how to measure it). Life ALWAYS implies a living being to experience it, talk about it, look at it, etc. Death only means something to the living. That makes life versus not living a standard, not a goal (the dead cannot experience death). So death is a measurement of a state (living). Death is not a state. It's a lack of state for living beings.

Your goal will be found in the living. And that means life itself is not the problem. You can't be alive and be separate from being alive (to make it a problem) at the same time. Something making that life crummy is the problem.

Anyway, I really like Jon's dark room metaphor above. To shove my thinking into his metaphor, the solution to a dark room is not to abolish rooms--or darkness, or yourself for that matter. That eliminates the dark room, but doesn't solve the problem. Suicide works that way.

I also agree about the electrician (specialized help).

Michael

[Wolf DeVoon]

On 2/9/2018 at 4:34 PM, Nerian said:

Suicide is always an option.

Don't be silly, son. I already told you that I'm sunk chin-deep in hardship, which worsened last week, a totally bizarre fight that my 16-year-old started.

Guess what? -- none of it matters, no depth of anguish or hunger or winter or abuse -- because https://www.amazon.com/dp/1985339005

 

[Wolf DeVoon]

On 2/10/2018 at 5:07 AM, anthony said:

Comparisons (with others) are odious and subjective. There are no common 'rules' (e.g. kings beating queens, etc.)

That's downright funny. Of course there are rules, except nowadays queens beat everything