anthony Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 4 hours ago, RobinReborn said: The left has nothing to do with this, do not pigeon hole my arguments into other people's arguments. Of course I know the difference between violence and self-defensive force, but in a primitive, collectivist and tribal area like the middle east the distinction isn't always easy to draw, perhaps you've heard the phrase it started with Isaac and Ishmael. There's been violence in the middle east for longer than there's been recorded history in the middle east. Joshua committed six genocides in Israel and he is celebrated for it. Just because there is a record of jewish history doesn't mean the record is accurate, history is written by the victor and the first casualty of war is truth. For Israel to be declared a 'Jewish State' is a tactless move. They were violent towards the British, there was no self defense then. They were attacked by neighboring 'nations' (who did not initiate violence against the British and French who colonized them)... this is an endless conflict because the parties involved are collectivist. Taking sides is pointless. As for defensive wars, that's a narrative that people disagree with. The British gave all of Israel away because of Jewish terrorism, it was a rational move. There has always been conflict in Israel and the nations that exist there don't exist there for long. Skating the surface. I'd advise too that "jewish" conveys disdain, it doesn't bother me but it could irritate others; you repeat it so regularly I imagine the contempt is intended.. Study up on this subject from Wiki (for a complex and impartial account) including the Balfour Declaration, the settling of Jews there going back to the late 19C - and so on. . All I read from you are rationalization, historicism and half-truths: There has always been conflict in Israel. Joshua, genocides. The British gave away all of Israel because... Defensive wars...narrative people disagree with. History written by the victor. Attacked by neighboring ... who did not attack the British.... The usual mix of skepticism, apologism, distortions, determinism and false causality prevalent from the Left's song book, so you will appreciate how I could make the error of presuming that you sing from it too. And I agree. "Collectivism" - was a major cause. Starting with Nazi Germany's collectivist view and treatment of Jews, accelerating the massive influx of Holocaust survivors and European refugees to Palestine, where they were met by tribal Arab collectivists. (Oh, and the British were tasked with limiting the numbers coming in, quite reasonably. Quite reasonably too and morally, the Jewish terrorists opposed their control and succeeded to smuggle in more Jews. But that was not a thing to do with giving "all of Israel" away. (Whatever that means). The Jews were prepared to keep to their circumscribed borders - until the Arab League attacked in '48 on the stroke of the independent State when the British officially washed its hands of them all. Those initial "terrorists" were the forces that pushed them back). There is a simple question I'm recently learning to ask before I discuss the matter of Israel with any individual: "Do you think Israel has the right to exist?" This device saves time and trouble. No one is going to persuade against emotionalist prejudice. When it is "No", I abandon further discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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