Conspiracy theories and Conspiracy theorists

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Gee. I wish we were back in time. Alex Jones would be beheaded for being a monster and a liar. I would not defend that bastard.  

Peter,

You just made my point.

You are a principled man, but getting Alex is more important to you right now than preserving American freedom.

From your own words, I imagine you would be just fine if the American government carried out a huge violation of his rights. Like executed him. Or jailed him for life.

At the same time, I imagine you consider yourself to be law-abiding.

 

 

It's not just you, either.

That's the product of the behavioral scientists informing the propagandists. 

I just got an email from my son in Brazil asking me why people can look at one thing, but end up on two sides that not only hate each other, they see completely different things from the same thing. Why facts and universal principles do not matter to the people anymore.

He was not talking about Alex Jones. Instead, he was talking about Jair Bolsonaro.

 

Yup, this is happening in Brazil, too. In an identical manner.

 

I told him I will write him a long one this weekend, but the short answer is that propagandists nowadays use behavioral science, modern psychology and neuroscience to structure their propaganda. Along with good old fashioned intimidation, spin and censorship.

Just look at what they did. They cleaved social peace into two warring sides and eliminated serenity in all public matters concerning politics. 

Anxiety, outrage and hatred make up the emotional backdrop of society these days going into an election.

What kind of people engineer this? Do they sleep well at night?

I told my son they are very good at what they do.

Michael

[Peter]

I watched some of Alex's testimony. I suggest everyone watch it . . .  He dissembles and when he realizes he is caught it a lie, he tries to explain it away . . . . Gee I had to make a buck. . .  er, where did you get those documents?  . . . er . . . what did you say? . . . er . . .  give me a break . . . 

He is a MONSTER. He should be beheaded . . .  making light of children's deaths for his own profit?! He is toast. Don't defend him.     

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

6 minutes ago, Peter said:

Don't defend him.     

Peter,

I am not an authoritarian.

I am against tyranny.

So I do defend him. He's an American citizen.

You do realize this court process he is involved in is deeply flawed, don't you?

If not, no matter. When it gets thrown out by a higher court, you will see what I mean.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

10 minutes ago, Peter said:

I suggest everyone watch it . . .  He dissembles and when he realizes he is caught it a lie, he tries to explain it away . . . . Gee I had to make a buck. . .  er, where did you get those documents?  . . . er . . . what did you say? . . . er . . .  give me a break . . . 

Peter,

I suggest that, too.

But are you talking about the judge or about the smarmy prosecutor?

   

Both are bad caricatures of the American court process.

Michael

[Peter]

Was he lying in some of his testimony? Does he lie all the time even about dead children to line his own pockets? This is America. So, gulp. Line your own pockets.

I think he is a villain. No O/objectivist should defend him. There is no rational reason to defend that bastard.     

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The money verdict came in. The prosecutors wanted Alex to pay $150 million. The jury awarded the plaintiffs $4.2 million.

Depending on a few other things, Alex many not contest this. He doesn't have that kind of money lying around, but that amount is within his capabilities.

Here he is talking about it. And saying he was wrong.

BREAKING EXCLUSIVE! Alex Jones Responds To $4.2 Million Sandy Hook Verdict

It looks like, much to the chagrin of the lawyers of the plaintiffs, Alex is taking some of the parents of the kids who died out to dinner. And they have expressed friendly things like handshakes and so on in front of the cameras.

They don't hate Alex.

Others do.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

No O/objectivist should defend him.

Peter,

I humbly note that CNN and MSNBC are not Objectivist.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

It looks like Alex is going to appeal the decision. There has been gross misconduct on the prosecution side and on the judge's side, not just in this case, but in the preceding ones. This is almost a slam-dunk to be overturned on appeal.

He was denied a jury trial. During the proceedings, he was not allowed to say he was innocent by the judge's decree. And on and on and on. This entire proceeding was a study in miscarriage of justice (according to US law and the Constitution).

Alex's company, Free Speech Systems LLC is in Chapter 11 reorganization bankruptcy right now (see here), so even that $4.1 or $4.2 million judgment is not going to turn into much money for the plaintiffs.

But here's the kicker. The plaintiff side spent tens of millions of dollars prosecuting Alex over Sandy Hook.   They are furious with the jury. They lost money.

Also, there's this. Alex is going to start having the parents of the killed kids on his show. Not all, but some of them. 

From what I can tell, he's going to look out for them and make sure they get money, but in a manner that will not play into the hands of the people trying to attack him and destroy his life.

Think of this. The prosecution originally asked for $150 million. I didn't know earlier, but now I do. Before the jury went into deliberation, they upped that amount to $3 billion. 

3 billion?

So when they jury came back with $4.1 million, this was like a slap in the face to the prosecution. I saw the video of the judge reading the jury's amounts and asking them if that is their decision. She looked like she was swallowing a series of toads as she turned over each paper.

Now Alex has a martyr case to present to his paying public (those who buy Infowars products--and there are a lot of people who do). It's a very effective marketing story, so I think his work at Infowars is not going to be affected even if he settles the full amount.

Incidentally, from what I heard (I did not read the court documents), he was not sued for anything he said. He was sued for something Owen Shroyer said, and even that was Shroyer reading online what a news article said. If that is the case, this thing is even full of bigger holes than I imagined.

Despite the perception all during this trial, Alex said, repeatedly, the Sandy Hook massacre was real about 7 years ago. And he's said it ever since. There's plenty of proof of this.

But the press is treating it like he was just now forced to say it. That's the result of the judge's muzzle on Alex. He was not allowed to defend himself, not even in the press.

There will be another session in the current case for punitive damages. Alex is not allowed to speak in his own defense there, either. Let's see what they jury decides, but from speculations I have read, it looks like it will not please the prosecution nor the judge.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Tim Pool has good balanced coverage on all this. So here is the video for those interested.

Alex Jones Ordered To Pay $4 Million In Defamation Lawsuit

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Michael

[william.scherk]

On 8/4/2022 at 11:06 AM, william.scherk said:

On 8/3/2022 at 6:41 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

They are railroading Alex Jones.

That's one way of looking at the trial. Without details, the assertion is hard to assess.

The terrible blunder of the defense announced in court yesterday has ramifications and they are ramifying widely today. The blunder being the incompetent Jones lawyer giving a link to a cloud file that contained full data from Alex Jones's phone. Two years of materials.

Not accurate as to "full data from Alex Jones's phone." According to the Capitol Hunters group via Marcy Wheeler ...

We may hear today the amount of punitive damages assigned by the jury.

[Added] 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by william.scherk
Clarity; added live feed

[tmj]

So what portion of the data is covered under attorney client privilege ? Does it need to be sequestered from other issues/venues ? 

If the J6 show trial commissars can view defense data that would allow the J6 defendants to use ‘extra’- discovery mechanisms to air  for the record any exculpatory evidence the government may possess?

[william.scherk]

4 hours ago, william.scherk said:

According to the Capitol Hunters group via Marcy Wheeler ...

For those who need an Alex Jones update: the release wasn't Alex's phone, it was the hard drive of attorney Norm Pattis, who represents Alex in another defamation case, also Alex's employee Owen Shroyer & the Proud Boys for J6.

Text from the emptywheel link provided; emphases added. The quotes are from plaintiff lawyer Mark Bankston:

Quote

As part of the exchange that ensued, plaintiff’s lawyer Mark Bankston laid out the dilemma facing Reynal upon discovering he had sent the crown jewels to the plaintiffs. What Bankston got sent included highly confidential records from the Connecticut plaintiffs, records he shouldn’t have had.

He says I will work on preparing you a new link. In other words, the idea here, your honor, because I don’t think this is true is that what he was wanting to provide to me was maybe I guess some last minute supplemental production, right, before this trial, days before this trial?

I don’t think that’s what was happening. And the reason I don’t think that’s what was happening is because Mr. Reynal never worked on preparing me a new link. He never ended up sending me, here is the correct material. Instead, he went to trial, and waited until after his client got off the stand and now says, Oh I meant to send him more materials. So what we’re basically hearing is that Mr. Reynal, at that point, if that story is true, knew that he was supposed to supplement his discovery, knew he was supposed to provide those materials to me, and when I alerted him that he failed to do that and provide me something else, he just ignored it, decided I’m not going to supplement discovery. So if that’s true, if that story is true, we have a willful violation of discovery by Mr. Reynal, to allow this case to go to trial with documents that he says he needed to provide to me. That in and of itself is sanctionable.

But that’s not the real story of what happened here. It’s just not. We know what happened here. Norm Pattis, up in Connecticut, was passing this file along to Mr. Reynal. And I know that because the directories contain SharePoint OneDrive backups of Norm Pattis’ computer. He’s providing it to Mr. Reynal and that, your honor, is also independently very troubling. Because Mr. Reynal talks about these medical records — that’s what he’s concerned about. These medical records. Well, one thing I can tell you right now, your honor, when I figured out that I had the confidential psychiatric records of all nine Lafferty plaintiffs and their confidential depositions? I immediately destroyed them. And I told Chris Mattie, plaintiff’s lawyer up there that I’ve done that. He is on notice that those materials are not in my possession. But I told him, look, I trust my staff. They’re good people. And I trust that those materials were never leaked. But nonetheless, that is a significant data breach against his clients. And what’s most concerning is that Mr. Reynal has not yet made an appearance in the Lafferty case. Mr. Reynal is not allowed to have those documents.

[snip]

The other problem, your honor, is we have Mr. Reynal now asking you to seal up an entire universe of things which should have been produced at minimum six months ago. One of the things you also, I know you remember, is that for multiple prior discovery hearings, beginning as early as October of last year, we’ve been talking about text messages. Every single hearing. And then you remember we had that hearing in January where we had the disclosure that, wait a second, that Don Salazar or Nico Acosta, the producer up in Connecticut had produced some text messages up there that should have been responsive, should have been on Rob [LNU] phone, Alex Jones’ phone. Why don’t we have them. What’s going on? And you’ll remember in those series of hearings, right, when Mr. Reynal came here in March, and told you, no, those were only on Mr. Acosta’s phone. Mr. Jones — we’ve searched his phone, he doesn’t have text messages that are responsive.

So again, not only is this a fig leaf, to cover up the things he has broken with his client, this is a fig leaf to cover up that he had been misrepresenting to you for months, telling you that these things did not exist.

I’d like to summarize what was said in response, Axios style, to make it more accessible for further reporting.

• Reynal’s legal assistant sent a file transfer link to Bankston, another of the plaintiff’s attorneys, as well as Reynal and another Jones attorney. The link led to a variety of other files, including confidential psychiatric files on the Connecticut plaintiffs
• The entire file was around 300GB of material
• 2.3GB of it is phone material, including “intimate messages with Roger Stone”
• Reynal claims that based on his review, Jones’ phone “is not in there,” but instead a review copy of text messages of a six month period between August of 2019 and the first quarter of 2020
• This happened once before, but in that case, Jones’ lawyers successfully identified privileged material and clawed it back
• Judge Maya Guerra Gamble agreed that the material should have been turned over a year ago
• Bankston has been asked by January 6 Committee to provide the phone and the plaintiff’s counsel in Lafferty (the latter of which can be shared under an information sharing order)
• Gamble suggested Reynal has made 17 requests for a mistrial and that Bankston has spent so much time in trial he has had no time to search on the material

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Well, the jury assured that that plaintiff will receive very little to nothing from this verdict.

Lots of appeals coming.

I believe Robert Barnes is one of the attorneys Alex uses at times. I bet we see him in appeals court.

For now, those who hate Alex can enjoy a media shit storm and those who like him will have to endure it.

Substance-wise, though, the shit-storm will mean nothing except shit thrown around. When money changes hands, that is where things get real...

Michael

[ThatGuy]

 

[ThatGuy]

 

[Peter]

What bugs me about Alex Jones is that he told "whoppers" to get ratings even if the whopper harmed other people. He lies. He manufactures conspiracies, etc. I am for his free speech, but libel is libel, harm done is harm done even, if you were just trying to sell your free speech. He is NOT a good person, perhaps on a level of evil with George Soros.

[ThatGuy]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

 I am for his free speech, but libel is libel, harm done is harm done even, if you were just trying to sell your free speech.

Fair enough.

Now, do the White House redefining "vaccine", "recession", and "peaceful protest", the lies of Dr.'s Birx and Fauci, and its ongoing censorship of dissenting views through its ties with social media sites like Facebook and Twitter...Perhaps they should all be "beheaded", too, as you suggested of Jones?

[ThatGuy]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:03 AM, Peter said:

He is a MONSTER. He should be beheaded . . .  making light of children's deaths for his own profit?! He is toast. Don't defend him.     

 

Now, do the White House redefining "vaccine", "recession", "mother" (as "birthing person"), and "peaceful protest", the lies of Dr.'s Birx and Fauci, and its ongoing censorship of dissenting views through its ties with social media sites like Facebook, Twitter, and Wikipedia...oh, and the government's advocacy of putting children on hormone blockers and drag queens twerking in schools while libeling parents at schoolboard meetings who criticize such  as "bigots" and "domestic terrorists". Don't defend them. No O'ist should defend them. Perhaps they should all be "beheaded", too, as you suggested of Jones? I know that's what Antifa and its kind want...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

What bugs me about Alex Jones is that he told "whoppers" to get ratings...

Peter,

That's not true.

Alex actually believes what he puts out.

I have been watching him for years, so I am comfortable saying that.

He's also human, so he makes his share of mistakes. You do. I do. Ayn Rand did. We all do.

 

I have a feeling your speculation about Alex's motives (he trampled over dead kids for ratings) doesn't come from watching him, but from watching mainstream others speak and write about him. A common talking point among the establishment news class is that so-and-so does sleazy things "to make a buck" as if that were the only thing that drives people. They also like to use the word grift a lot in that context.

Have you ever heard this criticism of Ayn Rand? It was quite common years ago. They used to say she was putting out her kooky philosophy that no one believes in, but then would put in a love scene or a chase scene to sell it and make a buck on it. 

Do you think Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged just to grift money out of people? 

 

The same people in the fake news media who say that ratings thing about Alex Jones say that about Ayn Rand.

 

Of course Alex cares about ratings and he knows fear sells, just like Fauci knows, just like Biden knows, just like George Bush knows, just like people like Glenn Beck know. in fact, just like Ayn Rand even knew.

But that's not close to his main motivation. If money and ratings were the major thing driving Alex, he would have gone in a completely different direction.

He has been banned from everywhere, yet he has received constant offers from the mainstream media. All he had to so was sell out his values and they would have put their ratings machine behind him in full force. How does constantly antagonizing the fake news ratings machine work with saying that ratings are the only thing driving Alex?

That's a contradiction. And, as Rand said in Atlas Shrugged:

Quote

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Hate Alex if you want. But when you look out at the world and see Joe Rogan, Steve Bannon, Tim Pool, President Trump, and on and on and on singing his praises, it might be time to check a premise or two. Are they all dupes for Alex's evil ratings games? Would you have Alex Jones beheaded in front of them in order to teach them about it?

 

Here is a recent article by Jon Rappaport that was sent out over the Lew Rockwell network and everywhere else. It's on Substack. The first paragraph might turn you off because it speaks ill of the COVID vaccine debacle and your view is different, but try to get past that paragraph and give it a shot. You might learn things about Alex you aren't aware of.

Know these things about Alex Jones

Know these things about Alex Jones - Jon Rappoport

JONRAPPOPORT.SUBSTACK.COM

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The hottest takes on culture

 

Part 2: Know these things about Alex Jones

Part 2: Know these things about Alex Jones

JONRAPPOPORT.SUBSTACK.COM

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Now I get personal. For some months, I guest hosted for an hour a week on Infowars...

 

Everything Jon wrote happened and can be verified by countless videos, audios and print.

Like I said, hate Alex Jones if you like. But my suggestion is to identify him correctly before evaluating (hating) him.

Otherwise you are hating a fantasy and saying that fantasy is him. 

 

Michael

[Peter]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Like I said, hate Alex Jones if you like. But my suggestion is to identify him correctly before evaluating (hating) him.

Otherwise you are hating a fantasy and saying that fantasy is him. 

From The Holocaust Museum website: Following the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, Hitler established a Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda headed by Joseph Goebbels. The Ministry's aim was to ensure that the Nazi message was successfully communicated through art, music, theater, films, books, radio, educational materials, and the press. end quote

Nazi propaganda or fantasy? From The Guardian: . . . For years, Jones, a bombastic far-right provocateur, ranted to his millions of followers that the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school shooting was a hoax, that children were not killed and that parents were “crisis actors” in an elaborate ruse to force gun control. end quotes

Is anyone claiming Alex Jones REALLY thought fantasies were true and saying hurtful things was not morally corrupt? I think he knew what he was doing: building a Neo Nazi empire.

[Peter]

I am for the truth. I think that occasionally the ‘alt truth” news stations discover something terrible. But they are, just like Alex . . . sometimes, lying for ratings or to push an agenda.

From ABC News: Alex Jones concedes Sandy Hook attack was '100% real' Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones says he now understands he was irresponsible to declare the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre a hoax, and he now believes it was “100% real.”

Another take? (Reuters) -U.S. conspiracy theorist Alex Jones told a Texas jury on Tuesday that he never intended to hurt parents of a child killed in the 2012 Sandy Hook massacre when he claimed the shooting was a hoax, saying his comments were taken out of context.

From Wikipedia:  The conspiracy theories promoted by Jones alleged that the United States government either concealed information about or outright falsified the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the September 11 attacks, and the 1969 Moon landing.^[37] He has claimed that several governments and big businesses have colluded to create a "New World Order" through "manufactured economic crises, sophisticated surveillance tech and—above all—inside-job terror attacks that fuel exploitable hysteria".^[38]

End quotes. Aaah. The poor guy can’t catch a break. He knows the moon landing was a hoax. He just knows.

[ThatGuy]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Is anyone claiming Alex Jones REALLY thought fantasies were true and saying hurtful things was not morally corrupt? I think he knew what he was doing: building a Neo Nazi empire.

Oh, that one's a keeper, right there...

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I should put this video over on the Coronavirus thread, but it covers a lot of conspiracies going on in the world.

The video is of an old man from Australia who lives in Mexico. He walks around the countryside talking to a smartphone on a selfie stick. There are countless video clips interspersed in his talking, clips of mainstream news where the people who are perpetuating the conspiracies are openly saying what they are doing, openly admitting to doing hoaxes and so on. On mainstream news.

 

Want a good example? Try this one. Everyone knows who Tedros is, right? The director of WHO, the World Health Organization? 

Did you know he has refused to take the COVID vax? Outright refused it. Not even the first jab.

He gives some bullshit excuse about being in solidarity with his countrymen in Ethiopia, but the truth is, he refused to take the vax. He's on video openly saying it. Got to 21:03 and you will see it.

Don't forget, this is the guy in charge of trying to get the whole world to take the jab. 

He's not hiding his hypocrisy. He just lays it out there and knows the world will not believe their own eyes and ears. He knows his propaganda will work for what he wants, so he can be himself at times and not fear a reprisal.

Ya' gotta admit, the guy's got balls. Unless he's facing the vax...

 

On another point, watching those clips of the press all over the place saying "a new normal," was eerie.

For those who watch, enjoy. I normally don't put videos like this up, but this thing with Tedros is too rich...

A Shift is Happening

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Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

I think he knew what he was doing: building a Neo Nazi empire.

Peter,

So where is Alex's political power? Where is his political party? Where are his government appointments? Where are his goons slamming people upside the head?

You won't find any of this stuff. A Neo Nazi empire needs this stuff to be a Hitler-like threat. Yet where is it?

It isn't. That's where.

 

If you want Nazis and Neo Nazis, try the World Economic Forum and the country of Ukraine. Those places are full of literal Nazis and their descendants.

Including the Nazi fascination with eugenics. They don't hide it. They openly talk about it and they fund it.

With your taxpayer money.

Does Alex Jones get American taxes? Nope.

But those people do.

And right now, this very minute, those people are trying to create a one world government of technocrats. Literally. Not only that, they kill and maim innocent people. For real.

 

Do you think Alex Jones is doing that?

Not even your mainstream sources go that far...

They just don't like what he talks about.

Michael

[ThatGuy]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Peter,

So where is Alex's political power? Where is his political party? Where are his government appointments? Where are his goons slamming people upside the head?

You won't find any of this stuff. A Neo Nazi empire needs this stuff to be a Hitler-like threat. Yet where is it?

It isn't. That's where.

 

If you want Nazis and Neo Nazis

, try the World Economic Forum and the country of Ukraine. Those places are full of literal Nazis and their descendants.

Including the Nazi fascination with eugenics. They don't hide it. They openly talk about it and they fund it.

With your taxpayer money.

Does Alex Jones get American taxes? Nope.

But those people do.

And right now, this very minute, those people are trying to create a one world government of technocrats. Literally. Not only that, they kill and maim innocent people. For real.

 

Do you think Alex Jones is doing that?

Not even your mainstream sources go that far...

They just don't like what he talks about.

Michael