Donald Trump

[Roger Bissell]

3 hours ago, Robert Campbell said:

I can't resist quoting one of Donald Trump's less publicized appearances in Wisconsin:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/trump-advice-wisconsin-college-students-221383

Quote

And you’ll find that when you become very successful, the people that you will like best are the people that are less successful than you, because when you go to a table you can tell them all of these wonderful stories, and they’ll sit back and listen,” he said. “Does that make sense to you? OK? Always be around unsuccessful people because everybody will respect you. Do you understand that?

 

Stomp 'em enough, and then they'll sit back and listen to your stories?

 

Sounds more like Peter Keating looking at unattractive people in a restaurant and reflecting on how seeing unsuccessful people made him feel good and worthy. Amazing. Trump, touted by some as another Howard Roark, much more like Keating. I love it!  (Keating built buildings, too.) 

REB

[Jonathan]

4 minutes ago, Roger Bissell said:

Sounds more like Peter Keating looking at unattractive people in a restaurant and reflecting on how seeing unsuccessful people made him feel good and worthy.

Or like Rand surrounding herself with dazzled, adoring, obedient children, most of whom we never would have heard of if they hadn't stapled themselves to her skirt.

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Actually, Trump was not talking about his own feelings.

He feels fine and has a resume to kill for.

He was talking about how you can brand yourself so you can make better deals. He's probably going to use this stuff on foreign governments, too.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

For those interested--CNN Anderson Cooper's Town Hall with the Trump family last night.

It's the entire thing. I'm watching it right now.

 

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

57 minutes ago, Roger Bissell said:

Sounds more like Peter Keating looking at unattractive people in a restaurant and reflecting on how seeing unsuccessful people made him feel good and worthy. Amazing. Trump, touted by some as another Howard Roark, much more like Keating. I love it!  (Keating built buildings, too.) 

REB

So--he's surrounded by these folk and will hire these folk and will be Pres. w/ these folk?

-Brant

I don't want to know--even if he's lying he won't use them anyway

[Jonathan]

On April 12, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Apparently other people in O-Land were not prepared for this either.

I have to quote Biddibob's latest pronouncement:

Well, that certainly sounds reasonable.

 

If you hold an opinion, this guy considers it a personal insult. Note how he reveals himself. I already knew he thought Trump supporters were morons, even though he kept denying it.

No, I didn't post on his thread.  When people evade facts and only think with their emotions about a topic, not with their reason, I give them a wide berth, at least until they simmer down. 

But look at that comment and soak it in, folks. That is what I mean by a Trump hater. It goes beyond reason, beyond any principle, beyond any friendship. This is the spiritual stuff wars are made of. I'm serious. (I mean real war, shooting and bombing and killing people kind of war.) With haters, they always say they don't hate (they say they love), but all you have to do is wait and they always end up exposing themselves. They can't not do it.

I could go into reasons for such intense Trump hatred from authoritarian-leaning Rand folks, but let's leave that to another discussion. I just want to say for now, if people think I am unreasonable in not taking anti-Trump arguments seriously, the hatred below the surface that the hater always denies is the reason. There's too much of it, it's not reasonable, and there are simply too many good people in the world for that much hatred. Also, there is no way to grow from hatred.

I don't live that way and I don't surrender up my values that way to anyone.

Here's a thought. Wait until Trump is president and things are working better than they ever did before.

With each new Trump triumph, poor Biddibob is going to seethe in mushrooming loathing...

I'll be amused to see this (I admit it), but I hope he'll still be able to write. I kinda like his stuff...

 

Michael

Wow, BidiBob is just fucking enraged! Haters gonna hate!

And when did he go all Indiana Jones costume? WTF? Is it just the hat and jacket, or did he go all out and buy the bullwhip too.

J

[Brant Gaede]

5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

For those interested--CNN Anderson Cooper's Town Hall with the Trump family last night.

It's the entire thing. I'm watching it right now.

Michael

Are his children unsuccessful--or does he just stay away from them as much as he can?

--Brant

[Peter]

Perceptively, Jonathan, from his table at the White Student’s Union wrote: Or like Rand surrounding herself with dazzled, adoring, obedient children, most of whom we never would have heard of if they hadn't stapled themselves to her skirt.  end quote

April 13, 2016 Donald Trump Is an Ayn Rand Villain, Trump Is Like a Character from The Fountainhead, Just Not Howard Roark by Robert Tracinski.

So Donald Trump says he's an Ayn Rand fan. Which has about as much credibility as every other claim Trump makes about himself. This comes by way of an interview with Kirsten Powers for USA Today. Here's how it's described: "Trump described himself as an Ayn Rand fan. He said of her novel The Fountainhead, 'It relates to business (and) beauty (and) life and inner emotions. That book relates to...everything.' He identified with Howard Roark, the novel's idealistic protagonist who designs skyscrapers and rages against the establishment."

So The Fountainhead "relates to business, beauty, life, and inner emotions"? Wow, that's really specific, because no other novels in history have ever related to "inner emotions." (By the way, why "inner emotions"? What would "outer emotions" be? Don't bother answering. I've seen Trump speak. That's what outer emotions are.) This kind of vague answer is par for course when Trump is pretending to talk about something he knows nothing about. It reminds me of Trump describing why he admires Abraham Lincoln.

"He was a man who was of great intelligence,... but he was also a man who did something that was a very vital thing to do at that time. Ten years before or 20 years before, what he was doing would never have even been thought possible. So he did something that was a very important thing to do, and especially at that time."

A history professor who was asked about this said that Trump's answer sounds like an inattentive student trying to bluff his way through a test question. Donald Trump talking about The Fountainhead sounds like a poor student trying to bluff his way through a book report, without even bothering to skim the Cliff's Notes. But here's what makes it really funny.

"When I pointed out that The Fountainhead is in a way about the tyranny of groupthink, Trump sat up and said, 'That's what is happening here.' He then recounted a call he received from a liberal journalist: 'How does it feel to have done what you have done? I said what have I done. He said nobody ever in the history of this country has done what you have done. And I said, well, if I lose, then no big deal. And he said no, no, if you lose, it doesn't matter because this will be talked about forever. And I said it will be talked about more if I win.'"

So Trump pivots from how he supposedly identifies with Howard Roark to a discussion of his favorite topic: how much people are talking about him. It's one of Trump's distinctive verbal tics to boast about how well he's doing in the polls, or about what "everybody says" about how great he is.

To people who have not read The Fountainhead, let me explain why people who have read The Fountainhead are smiling right now. The whole point of the character of Howard Roark is that he doesn't care whether other people are talking about him. Ayn Rand created Roark as the ultimate individualist, all the way down. Conformity has no pull on his soul, and what other people think of him has no fundamental impact on his "inner emotions."

There is a character in The Fountainhead who cares deeply about what other people think of him, who is obsessed with the opinions of others. That character is not Howard Roark. It's Peter Keating, the ultimate conformist, or what Ayn Rand called a "second-hander"--someone who borrows his ideas and goals "second-hand" from others. In the first half of the novel, while Roark's independent vision keeps meeting with rejection, Keating rockets to early success by being whatever other people want him to be. His motivation, as Roark eventually realizes, is "not to be great but to be thought great." He's not focused on actually achieving something good. He's focused on wanting everybody to say good things about him.

Here's Peter Keating's inner monologue on his first day as draftsman at New York's leading architectural firm. At first he is overwhelmed, but then:

"[H]e noticed the wrinkles of a gray smock sticking to a pair of shoulder blades over the next table. He glanced about him cautiously at first, then with curiosity, then with pleasure, then with contempt. When he reached this last, Peter Keating became himself again and felt love for mankind. He noticed sallow cheeks, a funny nose, a wart on a receding chin, a stomach squashed against the edge of a table. He loved these sights. What these could do, he could do better."

And now here is Donald Trump doling out spectacularly bad life advice:

"[Y]ou'll find that when you become very successful, the people that you will like best are the people that are less successful than you, because when you go to a table you can tell them all of these wonderful stories, and they'll sit back and listen. Does that make sense to you? OK? Always be around unsuccessful people because everybody will respect you."

So yes, Donald Trump is like a character from an Ayn Rand novel. But he's one of the villains.

But what about Trump's bluster about how he's willing to be Politically Incorrect and doesn't care about what other people think? Sure, and then he usually goes on to complain about what Megyn Kelly thinks of him, and what Ted Cruz said about him, and about how his latest poll numbers show what idiots they are. It's a pose of defiance, covering up an all-consuming obsession with what other people think.

The Fountainhead has this covered, too. Many of its characters are variations on the theme of "second-hand lives"--which was the original working title for the novel. Lois Cook is a Modernist poet (Ayn Rand's satire of Gertrude Stein) and a loud "non-conformist" who makes a big show of defying convention. While Keating's approach is to find out what everybody wants and be that, Cook's approach is to find out what everybody wants and be the opposite. But the point Ayn Rand is making is that Cook is still controlled by other people's opinions. She's still a copy of other people, but in reverse, like a photographic negative.

Similarly, Donald Trump's whole shtick of being "Politically Incorrect" largely consists of figuring out what other people will regard as offensive and saying that.

That's what Powers gets wrong about Howard Roark. He does not "rage against the establishment." He ignores it. (One of the villains dares him to "tell me what you think of me, in any words you wish," and Roark replies, "But I don't think of you.") The point of his character is that he chooses his own set of independent standards and sticks to them. He isn't ruled by a compulsion to conform to others--or by a compulsion to defy them. But if you talk with Donald Trump's supporters, you'll find that defying others is centrally important to them. They can't tell you much about what voting for Donald Trump will actually achieve. They're just doing it to stick a finger in somebody's eye--the essence of a "second-handed" motivation.

Here's how Lois Cook describes to an appalled Peter Keating her concept for a house: "Keating, I want the house to be ugly. Magnificently ugly. I want it to be the ugliest house in New York.... They all work so hard and struggle and suffer, trying to achieve beauty, trying to surpass one another in beauty. Let's surpass them all! Let's throw their sweat in their face. Let's destroy them at one stroke. Let's be gods. Let's be ugly."

"Let's be gods. Let's be ugly." That's a perfect campaign slogan for Trump's brand of populism, and it would fit really well on a bumper sticker.

But when actual fans of The Fountainhead think of Donald Trump, they are more likely to think of the publishing baron Gail Wynand. (A man, not a woman; it's a somewhat old-fashioned Irish male name.) Wynand has risen to fame and fortune by running a lowbrow, muckraking newspaper that appeals to the lowest common denominator--an early precursor of "reality TV." And there's no product he sells harder than himself and his own gaudy lifestyle: the big mansion, the parties full of famous people, scandalous affairs with beautiful women. The difference is that Wynand knows it's all a show. It's the cynical camouflage he adopts to pander to the masses, while he privately has his own, higher standards, represented by a secret collection of rare and exquisite art. It's that contrast between the two sides of his personality that fuels a lot of the dramatic tension later in the novel.

Somehow, I don't think Donald Trump has a secret art collection tucked away at Mar-a-Lago. He seems more like Wynand's right-hand-man, Alvah Scarrett, who's in charge of the paper's muckraking sensationalism. Scarrett doesn't do it because he secretly despises the masses. He does it because muckraking sensationalism is who he is. The lowest common denominator is already in his soul. Trump gives off the same sense. He doesn't run his campaign in a way that is carefully, rationally calculated. If he did, he would probably know how caucuses work or how Colorado awards its delegates. Instead, he runs his campaign from his gut, and if he has the crude style of a character from professional wrestling, that's just what comes naturally.

Trump is a guy who says he doesn't care what other people think, who then goes on to obsess endlessly about what other people think. He's exactly the sort of person who would want you to think he's an Ayn Rand fan, while he really acts like one of her villains. 

[Brant Gaede]

58 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Or like Rand surrounding herself with dazzled, adoring, obedient children, most of whom we never would have heard of if they hadn't stapled themselves to her skirt.

J

Rand's "collective" was a generation younger than she was. It was Branden who brought in the younger crowd with NBI. Rand never really liked them that much except for that first edition. As the collective got older she wanted older. All in all what she wanted most was from her own age group and of that she got almost zip. (Speculation off some observation.)

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

42 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

Are his children unsuccessful--or does he just stay away from them as much as he can?

Brant,

They are model children and very successful at business.

Even Trump's enemies recognize that he is a wonderful father. 

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Peter,

Imagine that... I disagree with Tracinski about Rand and politics...

Again.

Maybe this isn't the way he would have it (or maybe it is), but I use my own brain, not his.

I've got no beef with him, though. He's done pretty good as a writer in a tough field. I am a big admirer of achievement. (That's why I don't write off Biddibob. The guy writes good thrillers.)

In short, give me the guy who builds the magnificent buildings, not the one who talks about it.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, Jonathan said:

Wow, BidiBob is just fucking enraged! Haters gonna hate!

And when did he go all Indiana Jones costume? WTF? Is it just the hat and jacket, or did he go all out and buy the bullwhip too.

Jonathan,

I wrote to someone offline when Biddibob's post (the one in the link) had 44 likes. Now it has 58. Here is a paraphrase of what I wrote:

I found something very interesting on his post. As of now, he's got 58 likes (which is not many considering the reach of his public in O-Land and the hotness of the issue).

That indicates to me a hell of a lot more people in O-Land that know him either like Trump or are indifferent to Trump hatred. I am almost 100% sure a large number will vote for Trump, but don't want to discuss it in public. They don't want the hassle.

Facebook allows you to see who likes a post, so I looked at those who liked Robert's post. I didn't know most of the people.

Now here's the interesting part. If Trump gets the nomination, it will be interesting to see how these 58 continue to post and write about him. In my experience, I bet about 65-70% will eventually become outright Trump supporters and propagate many of the reasons we have discussed on OL, including pleasure that he loves Ayn Rand, about 15-20% will become indifferent and walk away from politics, and about 15% will continue to hate Trump.

 

Does that sound right to you? 

These are rough numbers, but this kind of division has held ever since I first noticed the effects of my first hate blast in O-Land, that is, when Perigo went scorched earth on Barbara on SoloHQ. After the dust settled, only his cronies (a small number) remained. But a huge number went where Barbara went. And a small number walked away never to return.

I don't hate hatred--some things you have to hate. But I don't dwell on them. I hate war for profit, for instance. And I really don't like those who profit from the Endless War culture. But even then, I reserve my loathing-level hatred for ISIS when they burn people alive, drown people in cages and so on.

Trump is no more worth hating than Barbara was. They are both marvelous human beings.

 

I also added "But tell the knuckleheads in our subcommunity that."  I'm saying that separately because some OL people liked Biddibob's post and nobody who posts on OL is a knucklehead.  

Like I said to the other person, people in O-Land just talk and posture. So I don't hate them. I don't even dislike them. Frankly, I have great affection for them--all of them (but OL members I love  ).

The real evil bastards do evil stuff in reality like chopping off heads. My hatred is for those people.

I sometimes wish our subcommunity were more respectful of honest independent thinking, though. I get a lot of cognitive dissonance from the constant groupthink, seeing how Rand's philosophy, at least in her fiction, glorifies independent thinking and bashes groupthink.

Michael

 

[Peter]

Here are a few, possibly good books in stores or soon coming out.

Robert Harris, “Dictator.” Stuart Woods, “Family Jewels.” “The Last Mile,” Baldacci. “Breakdown” Jonathan Kellerman -maybe I don't remember his last books?? Steve Berry, “The 14^th Colony - maybe?” "Beyond the Ice limit. Preston and Childs. May 17. Oh yeah. "Extreme Prey" April 25^th? And scifi “Saturn Run”?? Is that a Juvenile level? Hope not. "Theodore Boon,' John Grisham May 9. Steve Martini, "Blood Flag" May 16. Nevada Barr, "Boar Island" May 16.

Peter

[PDS]

On 4/12/2016 at 7:35 PM, Selene said:

Nah, you had it all the way. 

I am still surprised that a human being who in actuality brought great buildings, panoramic golf courses and projects that are run very well into existence not to be supported by alleged followers of Ayn's Producer personality type hero still stumps me.

A...

Adam:

I think I know what your last sentence means, but I'm not 100% sure.

With that caveat, I have had a client for close to twenty years (probably a billionaire, but--as with Trump--I'm not sure) who has built hotels and golf courses throughout the country.   He's been doing so longer than Trump has been doing so.  The hotels and golf courses are run quite well, and this client is also well known in the industry for projects that are run very well. 

Would you vote for him for President?   Or would you want to know more about him? 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Information-wise, Maddow did it again.

This following video is extremely interesting in providing a broad overview of the influence of Phyllis Shlafly and the Bushes in nominating Republican presidential candidates. And it covers the kerfuffle at her forum because she endorsed Trump.

Just dismiss Maddow's smug pleasure at what she perceives as an implosion of the Republican party. She is, after all, Rachel Maddow, the wicked witch of the progressives.  

Her information and big picture view are very good in this video.

I especially recommend it for younger OL readers who might not know much about this part of US history.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Just a thought for the misguided purity folks who are trying to keep Ayn Rand from being sullied by Donald Trump loving her work and saying so.

In the not-so-distant future, who is going to influence the culture more in spreading Ayn Rand's ideas?

Them--the self-appointed gatekeepers--on their hate-filled tirades about who belongs to the purity fold and who does not?

Or the President of the United States saying to the general public (and the entire world) that Howard Roark from Ayn Rand's novel, The Fountainhead, is one of his inspirations and role models?

Just a thought for thinking for those who don't think about these things...

Michael

[Robert Campbell]

On April 12, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Selene said:

I am still surprised that a human being who in actuality brought great buildings, panoramic golf courses and projects that are run very well into existence not to be supported by alleged followers of Ayn's Producer personality type hero still stumps me.

Adam,

Well, for starters, what Donald Trump said to Kirsten Powers about The Fountainhead could have been said just as well and just as easily by a person who had never read it.

Does anyone think Barack Obama actually read Atlas Shrugged?

Robert

[Brant Gaede]

58 minutes ago, Robert Campbell said:

Adam,

Well, for starters, what Donald Trump said to Kirsten Powers about The Fountainhead could have been said just as well and just as easily by a person who had never read it.

Does anyone think Barack Obama actually read Atlas Shrugged?

Robert

I do.

Otherwise how could Obama be so perfect? All the villainy without the Randian overt gloss of villainy.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Just a thought for the misguided purity folks who are trying to keep Ayn Rand from being sullied by Donald Trump loving her work and saying so.

In the not-so-distant future, who is going to influence the culture more in spreading Ayn Rand's ideas?

Them--the self-appointed gatekeepers--on their hate-filled tirades about who belongs to the purity fold and who does not?

Or the President of the United States saying to the general public (and the entire world) that Howard Roark from Ayn Rand's novel, The Fountainhead, is one of his inspirations and role models?

Just a thought for thinking for those who don't think about these things...

Michael

I just caught this while taking a break from digging my bomb shelter.

Gotta get back to work pronto.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Just a thought for the misguided purity folks who are trying to keep Ayn Rand from being sullied by Donald Trump loving her work and saying so...

 

 

That's the screwy thing about it. Trump said that he likes Rand's work and identifies with the character Roark.

And the response? Panic. Freakout. Retardation. "He's not a real-life Roark, how dare he say that he is!!!! There are things that are different between him and Roark!!!!"

Okay, well, Trump didn't claim that he was a real-life Roark. He just simply fricking identifies with Roark in some ways. That's not uncommon. Lots of people who are not exactly like Roark identify with the character. Even some people who are very much unlike Roark identify with him and would like to cultivate some of his virtues. Is it really that hard for these retards to understand that?

Are both Roark and Trump willful? Yep. Are they both driven? Uh-huh. Do they both overcome obstacles and accomplish big stuff? Yeah.

It's not hard to see that Trump would identify with Roark in many ways.

So, what's up with twits wailing about Trump not being Roark? Do they have something like an issue where they think that they have some kind of ownership of the character Roark because they liked him first, and know more about him ,and love Ayn Rand more than anybody else, so they deserve to be Roark? They want to be Roark, so Trump better not try to claim that he is Roark, even though he didn't? WTF? Is it like an older brother being upset that his little brother might also try to be Batman for Halloween when the older brother thinks that he's got exclusive dibs on it?

J

[9thdoctor]

1 hour ago, Robert Campbell said:

Adam,

Well, for starters, what Donald Trump said to Kirsten Powers about The Fountainhead could have been said just as well and just as easily by a person who had never read it.

Does anyone think Barack Obama actually read Atlas Shrugged?

Robert

I'm confident Trump has had Rand's books recommended and even pressed into his hands numerous times.  Obama, probably not, likely never. 

Here's an article worth reading:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/04/12/donald-trumps-organizational-failure-in

Trump portrays himself as a master businessman who employs top experts to cut savvy deals, but he appears to have been totally blindsided by the process the state uses to award delegates.

The results from Colorado show that Trump is an incompetent manager who, in the face of a complex but knowable organizational challenge, cannot even capably represent his own interests.

 

[Backlighting]

Question for Trump. Sir, can you quote anything from The Fountainhead? -J

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, 9thdoctor said:

Here's an article worth reading:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/04/12/donald-trumps-organizational-failure-in

Trump portrays himself as a master businessman who employs top experts to cut savvy deals, but he appears to have been totally blindsided by the process the state uses to award delegates.

The results from Colorado show that Trump is an incompetent manager who, in the face of a complex but knowable organizational challenge, cannot even capably represent his own interests.

Dennis,

LOL...

This guy thinks Trump knows nothing about management.

I'm impressed because that means he must be one heavy-ass mofo.

 

Obviously this author is somebody who has turned the entire Republican election process on its head while generating unheard of audiences for the primary process, defeated the establishment folks in contest after contest despite millions of dollars in negative ads from them, won more states and delegates than anybody so far, runs a company with oodles of projects, thousands of employees and worth billions, has put on a top-rated TV show and written a string of bestsellers, right? Or if he hasn't done that, he can. Right?

I mean, that's who wrote the article, right? This guy knows so much he claims "Trump can barely manage his own campaign operation." And he can say that because he is an expert in running campaign operations and the country besides. And that's because he runs so many managerial things and large operations in his own life. Right? 

(drum roll...)

Oh, wait. Peter Suderman is a young writer at Reason (now editor) who came from the National Review...

Writing as an employee or freelancer is all he has ever done in life...

Ahhhh...

Hmmmm...

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

btw - For those interested, it looks like Megyn Kelly paid Donald Trump a visit at his Trump Tower office.

I don't know where this is going to go, but expect to hear about it on the news during the next few days.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

13 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

This guy thinks Trump knows nothing about management.

I'm impressed because that means he must be one heavy-ass mofo.

 

By this reasoning there are very few people qualified to critique the Drumpf.