South Carolina Church Shooting

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

To get this back on track, I haven't even finished listening to the first 10 minutes of this Google Talk and I know this is the right place for it:

 

 

Former White Power, now running a group called Life After Hate

 

Michael

[9thdoctor]

Death row: he'll be isolated and alone for many years until he's executed.

Life sentence: he'll have a social existence, like Richard Peck Speck did.

--Brant

and he'll come to like anal intercourse

if I had anything to say about what happens to him out of these two, he'd get death row--and I'd personally forget about him

How about this for a soundtrack:

[BaalChatzaf]

William,

Obama--as president--is a role model. So if he does it... well...

... it didn't take long for the n-word to become a thing on cable news.

Just a few hours, really.

Check out Cornel West:

<script height="360px" width="640px" src="http://player.ooyala.com/iframe.js#ec=IxNTZ0dTpbnPHT9O3muYmD-NcMeLn-ZE&pbid=b171980b65ae4996bffea4da902c7846"></script>

Michael

Notice that Cornell is allowed to say "Niggarized" but the lady with whom he speaks is not...

[RobinReborn]

I believe what Kyrel said was completely wrong and in my experience, it's not worth arguing with people that are that wrong.

Funny how people often say it's not worth arguing with someone right after they have done exactly that. ;)

It wasn't an argument, it was an insult. Usually I stay away from those in arguments.

[moralist]

The whole faux outrage (or pearl-clutching concern) over the use of the N-word by the prez strikes me as deeply stupid and monocular.

That's the feminized left... hypersensitive emotional offense over words.

Political correctness is solely their creation. Emasculated word-nazis prancing around poring over reams of text looking for something (anything) over which to screech hysterically of their "victim's pain" from seeing or hearing a mere word. Then they run crying to their mommie, the leftist legal system for "restitution".

It's sick.

Greg

[RobinReborn]

Kyrel, are you eastern european?

If so, why should we take anything you say on race seriously? Your people have offered little resistance to communism and nazis, your women are whores and your men are drunks and you have the stupidest religions possible. Nothing original has come from that region. It's the asshole of the Eurasian continent. You wish your people had achieved things that the British, French etc had but you haven't, your skin color may be the same as their but other than that you're completely different

If this seems wrong to you, then I'd reconsider your collectivist views. Otherwise, I'd ask you whether your insults to Africans come from a deeply rooted insecurity or inability to understand Western Culture.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I finished the video of Christian Picciolini (the ex-white power dude I posted here).

It was very interesting. His indoctrination into the Skinhead world was quite similar to the cult cases I have been studying recently like Scientology.

And even though the racism was real, Picciolini, like I imagine a lot of younger Skinheads, did not start out as a racist.

This is a lot different than the racism I grew up with in the backwoods mountains of Wise County, Virginia.

To my cultural feeling, the blatant anti-black anti-semitic racism mix has morphed a bit. The two are still paired in what Picciolini described, but it seems that racism per se was secondary to his tribe and getting new recruits.

When I was young in coal-mining country, racism was in first place. Unmistakeably. And handed down from parents to children. If you weren't born into it, people didn't trust you.

Michael

[Guyau]

At the turn into the present century, I glanced back and noticed three great social things that had been accomplished in my country in my life (b. 1948):

• Putting a man on the moon (emblematic of American technological advancement).
• Avoiding nuclear war.
• Advancement in recognition of racial equality.

Concerning that last one, an event and the local response to it the other night at Ole Miss is emblematic of the progress in the last fifty years.

. . .

That link is broken. I would guess the event was the public airing of the white-supremicist viewpoint of some of the students while decrying the President's re-election.

. . .

When I was young in coal-mining country, racism was in first place. Unmistakeably. And handed down from parents to children. . . .

Michael

Sounds familiar. Racism and the n-word were everyday faire in my family and community in those times. In the early '60's I first began to hear the news that something was wrong with that, from a grade school teacher and from church (and then on television as the big events unfolded). I went with the cause of racial equality and for that reason chose to go to a high school that was being integrated, which turned out to be a great experience. I have talked to countless people our age who had run-ins with their parents in those days over racial issues. We have come so far. I really identified with the President's remarks; it was as if I or some of my classmates were speaking. I think we can continue to liquidate remaining racism in our country. The recent turn-around by Republican leadership on flying the confederate flag on state buildings is welcome leadership. Insistence on continuing to fly those colors on state buildings is and always has been in part a trapping of white-supremacist propaganda.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Obama--as president--is a role model. So if he does it... well...

 

... it didn't take long for the n-word to become a thing on cable news.

 

Here's another cutie:

 

 

Who knows?

 

Maybe Obama inadvertently pulled the teeth out of the PC police.

 

Maybe, just maybe, people will start being able to use this word again in non-offensive contexts--like when reading Mark Twain out loud--without being accused of bigotry or being called out for a fight.

 

Michael

[Guyau]

.

Michael, there are uses, and there are uses. In the narrower sense of use of a word, which is in contrast to mention of a word (recitation of an author not oneself is normally entirely mention), the word should not be used by non-black Americans. It still expresses denigration and hatred. The word is still used, not just mentioned, when some white men down here are talking to other white men about a black man. It expresses racism and white supremacy in particular. And, as you know, all over the country, it continues to spring forth as an epithet from white men very angry with a black man.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Stephen,

I used to be in love with a black woman (ex-Playboy bunny). We lived together for almost a year, so I became an intimate among the American blacks in Brazil and the Brazilian blacks around them, especially those within the Hip Hop culture.

(I know, I know... the image of me and Rap is kind of jarring. )

When they used that word, which was constantly, it was a term of affection. And they never objected to me using it, although I didn't very much. Mostly when horsing around and even then...

What I object to here in the USA is the emotional load of hatred this word has taken on--and kept in place--and it's use as a term to control others. The hatred is no longer the oppressive slave-owner mentality, but instead, a power grab by all sides. A gotcha culture thing.

If Obama wanted to keep this in place, unfortunately by trying to push whatever agenda he was pushing, he opened a can of worms he is not going to get back into the can very easily, if at all. And the worm crawl won't be to his liking.

The left is going to try to pretend that the only ones objecting to Obama using the n-word are right-wingers trying to win a game of gotcha. However, I believe one public personality after another is going to appear using it, left, right and center. As I am demonstrating in their own words and actions. And their rationale will be Obama said it in public so why can't I? He showed the way.

That's probably a good thing over time because it will dilute the emotional load and hatred. But I'm not so sure this will be the result Obama intended.

Michael

[Guyau]

.

The Pres' saying of the word was a mention, not a use. Use of the word by non-blacks is not going to become unloaded in America in our lifetimes. We have alternative, decent words. Similarly, there is no need for straight people to try to unload "faggot" by using it rather than using less hostile alternatives. The non-use (as opposed to non-mention) of these epithets is the right way to go. Simple as that.

[Selene]

When they used that word, which was constantly, it was a term of affection. And they never objected to me using it, although I didn't very much. Mostly when horsing around and even then...

Precisely.

This was the way is was in Harlem, Bed Sty, Fort Green, St. Ann's Avenue in the South Bronx, South Jamaica...in the '60's and is the same today in Bushwick[would be considered the "Hood" by most white folks out there] where I was two (2) weeks ago with some friends of mine.

The "self-hating apologetic white man" is, frankly, laughably pathetic to myself and the group I was with in Bushwick.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The Pres' saying of the word was a mention, not a use. Use of the word by non-blacks is not going to become unloaded in America in our lifetimes.

Stephen,

I doubt others will parse this the way you do. Some will, but not all.

As to non-blacks using the word, I expect to see this in public more and more when reading historical documents and literature.

We have alternative, decent words.

I agree.

Michael

[Derek McGowan]

Just read through the thread...

Ya know, the thing I'm always curious about when someone makes a statement like Kyrel's opener about how(paraphrasing from #26) blacks downgrade and deteriorate white society whenever they appear, I wonder how does that person view all of history where conquering whites have expanded into other races' (Africans, Austrialians, Mexico, Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, even Scotland) territories and degraded, killed off, disrupted or enslaved the local populations?

On the other hand I was about to order his book until my wife said that that would be supporting such nonsense positions.

On the word nigger. I never agreed with the idea that only blacks can say it especially when we are talking about young generation friends. If people grow up in a mixed culture and they aren't saying it out of hatred but just the same as I would say it to another black guy, then it's all good to me. Black people do have an issue with ownership. They want to own certain words and culture and the want to own the struggle. No one else can complain about having hardships growing up because black people own that narrative. No one else can rap or dance a certain way without being authorized by a panel of African American gatekeepers. From some folk I get the distinct feeling that while on the outside they say that they want to have an honest and open discussion about race, really they don't want to hear a word of it unless that conversation goes exactly the way they want it too.

We will reach to mountaintop

[Brant Gaede]

The conquest of Mexico freed tribes enslaved to the Aztecs who practiced human sacrifice on a grand scale.

This doesn't invalidate the point you are making.

--Brant

[RobinReborn]

@Brant I've never been convinced that the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice on a grand scale. The Europeans burned witches, yet somehow this is not considered human sacrifice.

[Brant Gaede]

@Brant I've never been convinced that the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice on a grand scale. The Europeans burned witches, yet somehow this is not considered human sacrifice.

In that sense the Holocaust was human sacrifice.

--Brant

there's a book out on human sacrificing all over the planet, past and present

the Aztecs integrated it into their religion

the Aztecs the victims of European-Catholic-Spanish propaganda?

the winners write the history, the Aztecs obliterated that of their own predecessors

[Guyau]

.

Derek, thanks for adding your remarks in #90. You are a bright ray.

[anthony]

Derek: Sane, sensible and quite wise thoughts which resonate with me here. True, discussion should be open: stigma and prejudice fester when left unvoiced. Yes, "ownership" has its pitfalls when it becomes a sort of insider elitism. We have had in RSA our own version of the n word--the k word--which I believe is more hurtful and redolent with a more recent racial injustice. Its use has nearly completely died out of its own accord, 'organically', albeit that the word was also (unnecessarlly and autocratically, I think) legislated against. I hardly remember hearing it muttered by any urban white more than once or so in the past year. Another distinction is that it has always been completely avoided (even humorously, ironically, intimately, familiarly, etc) by black people themselves. Left to their own devices, it is certain that people individually will become sensitive (at the very least) of insults levelled at others by their respective 'groups' - and also intuitively recognize the illogic and injustice of making broad, collective statements, while they may have no idea of that as philosophical concept.

(Too, demographics are different in SA, with whites comprising about 10%, and falling).

[Brant Gaede]

Just read through the thread...

Ya know, the thing I'm always curious about when someone makes a statement like Kyrel's opener about how(paraphrasing from #26) blacks downgrade and deteriorate white society whenever they appear, I wonder how does that person view all of history where conquering whites have expanded into other races' (Africans, Austrialians, Mexico, Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, even Scotland) territories and degraded, killed off, disrupted or enslaved the local populations?

On the other hand I was about to order his book until my wife said that that would be supporting such nonsense positions.

On the word nigger. I never agreed with the idea that only blacks can say it especially when we are talking about young generation friends. If people grow up in a mixed culture and they aren't saying it out of hatred but just the same as I would say it to another black guy, then it's all good to me. Black people do have an issue with ownership. They want to own certain words and culture and the want to own the struggle. No one else can complain about having hardships growing up because black people own that narrative. No one else can rap or dance a certain way without being authorized by a panel of African American gatekeepers. From some folk I get the distinct feeling that while on the outside they say that they want to have an honest and open discussion about race, really they don't want to hear a word of it unless that conversation goes exactly the way they want it too.

We will reach to mountaintop

I suggest you buy the book for the reason(s) you wanted to in the first place. You won't be supporting the positions for it's not the kind of book one writes another like and the positions are not self-sustaining. They just drop to the floor. As for money in Kyrel's pocket, it's too little to mean anything. As or any morality on your part simply write a negative review on Amazon. Don't fall into the trap of book boycott. It's the other side of the coin from book burning. To announce book boycott, even if it's your own personal one, just encourages people to buy the book in the same way college profs in the 1960s (and likely since) call for implicit Ayn Rand boycott using less honest means such as sneers which only encouraged many to go read her anyway. The over-riding fact is if you want to counter such viewpoints you read the book so you can manufacture the requisite ammo needed. In his book he actually exposes his belly. In these Internet forums the bits and pieces are harder to counter and deal with for they'll pop up time and again by him and from him. Note, however, that if I had known what I was buying I wouldn't have bought it. The content is much too poor. But I would have a different gut-level attitude if I were black. I'd want all the information I could get my hands on.

--Brant

[Jjeorge]

Just read through the thread...

Ya know, the thing I'm always curious about when someone makes a statement like Kyrel's opener about how(paraphrasing from #26) blacks downgrade and deteriorate white society whenever they appear, I wonder how does that person view all of history where conquering whites have expanded into other races' (Africans, Austrialians, Mexico, Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, even Scotland) territories and degraded, killed off, disrupted or enslaved the local populations?

On the other hand I was about to order his book until my wife said that that would be supporting such nonsense positions.

On the word nigger. I never agreed with the idea that only blacks can say it especially when we are talking about young generation friends. If people grow up in a mixed culture and they aren't saying it out of hatred but just the same as I would say it to another black guy, then it's all good to me. Black people do have an issue with ownership. They want to own certain words and culture and the want to own the struggle. No one else can complain about having hardships growing up because black people own that narrative. No one else can rap or dance a certain way without being authorized by a panel of African American gatekeepers. From some folk I get the distinct feeling that while on the outside they say that they want to have an honest and open discussion about race, really they don't want to hear a word of it unless that conversation goes exactly the way they want it too.

We will reach to mountaintop

To announce book boycott, even if it's your own personal one, just encourages people to buy the book in the same way college profs in the 1960s (and likely since) call for implicit Ayn Rand boycott using less honest means such as sneers which only encouraged many to go read her anyway.

--Brant

This is exactly what pushed me to read Atlas Shrugged. My AP US History teacher in high school used to go on tirades against her, and I figured that since I disagreed with everything else the woman said, this Ayn Rand person was probably pretty smart.

I considered telling her that it was her own words that metaphorically pushed me into the arms of her most hated enemy, as payback for the crazy things she did when I dared argue with her. (She kicked me out of class several times -- which of course also backfired, as my peers only rallied to my defense.)

Decided it was better to just leave it alone.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

We will reach to mountaintop

Derek,

I like you.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

We will reach to mountaintop

Derek,

I like you.

Michael

Wait a minute!

Allow me to be generous.

Derek. We like you.

--Caesar

[Derek McGowan]

.

Derek, thanks for adding your remarks in #90. You are a bright ray

Thumbs up to you and MSK