South Carolina Church Shooting

[Derek McGowan]

. Read Empire of the Summer Moon.

Perhaps I will, thanks

[Selene]

Thanks for the Stefan YouTube, he makes clear arguments and reasons well.

One data issue is that the origin of the murder weapon has not been established.

As to the debate that needs to occur, or, in touchy feely modern parlance, the conversation that is being held by most good folks out there.

One early sign that about the evaluation of the "American Negro" was made crystal clear when I was teaching courses in the evening sessions at CUNY.

I had a number of Jamaican, Nigerian, Ivory Coast, etc. black students of various ages.

I had to separate the two camps because the Island and African students were furious at what they perceived was misspent opportunity by the American Negro, who, in there mind were "freed" at that point just over a century.

Believe me, in my classes, debate got very real.

Another debate that needs to occur openly is the Latino population.

A...

[Selene]

Here is a piece of an essay Peter.

Would like your thoughts on this:

Stereotypes today

Although much has changed since the days of Sambo, Jim Crow, the Savage, Mammy, Aunt Jemimah, Sapphire and Jezebelle, it can be argued convincingly that similar stereotypes of African-Americans exist in 1998. Author Joseph Boskin states that "...there should be little doubt that aspects of Sambo live on in the White mind and show through the crevices of American culture in subtle and sophisticated ways" (Boskin, 1986, p. 15). However, the predominant modern stereotypes are the violent, brutish African-American male and the dominant, lazy African-American female - the Welfare Mother (Peffley Hurwitz & Sniderman, 1997). Recent research has shown that whites are likely to hold these stereotypes especially with respect to issues of crime and welfare. As political and legislative decisions still are controlled by white males, these negative biases are often expressed through policy formation. There is an obvious trend in this society to discriminate against and deny access to social institutions to African-Americans (Jewell, 1993). A 1997 study conducted by Peffley et al indicated that whites who hold negative stereotypes of African-Americans judge them more harshly than they do other whites when making hypothetical decisions about violent crimes and welfare benefits.

Plous & Williams (1995) were interested in measuring the extent to which whites still hold the racial stereotypes formed in the days of "American Slavery"; however, they noted a lack of current data on this subject. National public opinion surveys do not measure racial stereotypes, yet these authors found some research that indicated that there has been a steady decline in the belief that whites are more intelligent than blacks. Plous & Williams suspected there was reason to doubt this conclusion and conducted their own survey on the current existence of stereotypes. Findings revealed that 58.9 percent of black and white subjects endorsed at least one stereotypical difference in inborn ability. Additionally, whites are 10 times more likely to be seen as superior in artistic ability and abstract thinking ability; and African-Americans were 10 times more likely to be seen as superior in athletic ability and rhythmic ability. Further, 49 percent of subjects endorsed stereotypical differences in physical characteristics such as blacks experience less physical pain that whites and have thicker skulls and skin. Interestingly, African-Americans and those subjects without a high school degree were more likely than others to endorse racial stereotypes (Plous & Williams, 1995). This finding shows how individuals internalize negative self-stereotypes.

Some recent incidents indicating the continued existence of racial stereotypes were noted in the news (Plous & Williams, 1995). In 1991 the Los Angeles police officers who beat African-American Rodney King referred to a domestic dispute among African-Americans as "right out of 'Gorillas in the Mist'" (Plous & Williams, 1995, p. 812). Similarly, in 1992, the director of Alcohol, Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration resigned after "likening inner-city youths to monkeys in the jungle" (Plous & Williams, 1995, p. 812 ).

http://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/links/VCU.htm

[moralist]

Greg wrote: I use money to keep score... as a means of measuring the goodwill of the people I serve. I know I'm doing what's right when they're genuinely happy to give me money, because they feel what they get is worth what they pay for. There is something so sweet and personally satisfying about honest ethical win/win financial transactions. end quote

Exactly right, Greg. A *trader* is an honorable profession. It's a handshake, where your word is your bond. Truth. Justice. Honor. That is what Objectivism is about.

This is exactly what I love most about Ayn Rand's protagonists. They were upright and honorable in business. Her words affected me so deeply I made it the highest priority to work to create that very same ethical "my word is my bond" atmosphere in my own business... even higher than making money. Doing what's right is the key to success... in business as in life.

I have everything I want with no debt and never need to worry about money for the rest of my life.

Greg

[Peter]

In a 1947 entry in "The Journals of Ayn Rand," (Rand 1997, 551) Ayn wrote:

And, to go to the roots of the whole vicious error, blast the separation of man into "body" and "soul," the opposition of "matter" and "spirit." Man is an indivisible entity, possessing both elements but not to be split into them, since they can be considered separately only for purposes of discussion, not in actual fact. In actual fact, man is an indivisible, integrated entity . . . . end quote

On another site called Atlantis, Nathaniel Branden once wrote: The more I read the postings on this list, as I have been doing lately, the more I wonder why anyone would think this is an Objectivist list. An "Objectivist" who does not agree that rationality is volitional is not an Objectivist. An "Objectivist" who does not think there are such things as natural rights is not an Objectivist. An "Objectivist" who preaches racism is not an Objectivist. None of these issues are marginal to Objectivism but reflect essential principles. And if this is not supposed to be, in some serious sense, an Objectivist list--what is it supposed to be? . . . . end quote.

On Objectivist Living, owner Michael mentioned on another thread, The Marketing of Evil: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised As Freedom by David Kupelian.

If I have time I will try to tie those quotes into the current thread. Imagine, some actor saying, "Can you handle the truth?"

[moralist]

In a 1947 entry in "The Journals of Ayn Rand," (Rand 1997, 551) Ayn wrote:

And, to go to the roots of the whole vicious error, blast the separation of man into "body" and "soul," the opposition of "matter" and "spirit." Man is an indivisible entity, possessing both elements but not to be split into them, since they can be considered separately only for purposes of discussion, not in actual fact. In actual fact, man is an indivisible, integrated entity . . . . end quote

On another site called Atlantis, Nathaniel Branden once wrote: The more I read the postings on this list, as I have been doing lately, the more I wonder why anyone would think this is an Objectivist list. An "Objectivist" who does not agree that rationality is volitional is not an Objectivist. An "Objectivist" who does not think there are such things as natural rights is not an Objectivist. An "Objectivist" who preaches racism is not an Objectivist. None of these issues are marginal to Objectivism but reflect essential principles. And if this is not supposed to be, in some serious sense, an Objectivist list--what is it supposed to be? . . . . end quote.

On Objectivist Living, owner Michael mentioned on another thread, The Marketing of Evil: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised As Freedom by David Kupelian.

If I have time I will try to tie those quotes into the current thread. Imagine, some actor saying, "Can you handle the truth?"

Kupelian is effing brilliant.

Greg

[Peter]

I agree. That title ,"The Marketing of Evil: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised As Freedom" by David Kupelian, gave me some ideas that might break through this intellectual wall that divides us, and I am including Derek, Adam, Richard, and other non-responding readers of this thread, as being on the other side of the wall. And remember I am not automatically conflating/combining any individual with aspects of their society or saying they are the norm. I do believe and think in the basic tenets of Objectivism, free will, and constitutional law.

To this Objectivist, Greg, *a lot of, but not all of* today's *observable* Black Culture, historically and trending into the future (outside of more Christian, retro, rural areas) is: Corrupt, To a degree evil, Unsustainable on a civilized level, Lacking in intelligence, Criminal, Parasitic, Violent within families, Violent within society, Has a huge male incarceration rate (60 percent of black, urban males are in jail, have been in jail, or will be in jail) etc., etc., etc. So should I believe the Liberals and those masquerading as proponents of *Equal Protection Under The Law* or should I believe my own eyes?

People who agree with me have done a very poor job of marketing their views since The Civil Rights Movement. Rand wrote an article called, "Racism" that took MLK to task for leaning towards socialism. But even Objectivists got comfortable and lazy from being on the right side of the law because it is the *power* side of the law. Rush Limbaugh made some good points about how liberalism demonizes its opponents because it is a religion for them, and that has caused a lot of rational voices to clam up.

In the liberal article, "The School to Prison Pipeline," the authors commented on the fact that Blacks and Latinos are 17 times more likely to be suspended than whites. The authors DID NOT want a color blind policy for everyone. According to the authors, if cops are in the schools then more students of color are sent to juvenile detention centers or end up suspended. The authors wrote, "The bias starts early. Black children represent 18 percent of pre-school students, but account for 48 percent of pre-school suspensions . . . . It is crystal clear that Black students, especially boys, get it worse," said Jacqui Greadington, chair of the NEA Black Caucus. "Studies have shown that a Black child, especially a male, is seen to be a bigger threat just because they are. They are. They exist." end quote

So Blacks are different, according to this Black person. Blacks do POSE a bigger threat. I would not use the word pose. To a working teacher, sociologist, cop, or resident of a black neighborhood, black men ARE a bigger threat. Does that mean they should be judged differently than whites? Gosh, no - ooops, I mean gosh, yes! The authors definitely think Blacks should be judged more leniently. The decent, teacher-minding, law abiding student AND THEIR TEACHERS should be made to suffer disruptive classrooms because Blacks males are more criminal, violent, disruptive and animalistic. The authors want street behavior in the classroom to lower the standard for ALL classroom behavior and learning. And what occurs on the streets with more criminal, violent, disruptive and animalistic young people? People walk in groups. Protective gangs are formed. The authors want all children to suffer lower grades and fearful lives so that privileged Blacks can have it their way. This is racism turned on its head. It sounds like an episode of "COPS." If young criminals end up old criminals, that is because of their objectively observed behavior. Accepting that is *racism.*

A cop allowing criminal behavior to continue if it is perpetrated by a black or Latino is racism. Portraying a race in glowing, higher than representational numbers is racism, as shown on TV today. Rioters attacking cops should be dispersed and if they are endangering lives and property they should be neutralized using the least lethal means available. I read that 140 stores were looted or burned in the latest Baltimore riots. Hundreds of thousands of doses of opiates were looted and are now on the streets. That should not have happened.

As I mentioned, the liberal / Progressives have an agenda as shown in their content in the media. Of course, I know that historically whites appeared way beyond their numbers on white owned TV in the past but two wrongs dont make a right. This was mentioned previously on a thread on OL. And I noticed an odd trend lately of showing a disproportional number of couples who are inter-racial. That is a racist, not tolerance agenda. A black only TV station, (BET) is racism. Can you imagine an announcer saying that today on the European Heritage Channel we will be showing movie features with no minorities accept in the role of villain, followed by a Nascar event where they proudly fly the confederate flag? Magazines about just blacks and including only blacks is racism. Can you imagine the liberal outcry over the next issue of IVORY Magazine for whites and featuring whites?

I am running out of steam. The sun is shining but they are forecasting thunderstorms. One last thought today. Fox is saying the one escapee who was shot was suffering from bad food he had eaten and reeked of alcohol. What if those two escaped killers had been black? How would the press have portrayed it? Transpose in your imagination the coverage of those white criminals utilizing the last dozen RACE RIOT's coverage.

[Derek McGowan]

Peter,

Sooooo, not going to clarify the peaceful nature of whites when juxtaposed with the true history?

Just going to ignore that whole thing?

Secondly when you say

To this Objectivist, Greg, *a lot of, but not all of* today's *observable* Black Culture, historically and trending into the future

what history are you talking about? I've posted very real occurrences in the past 1000 years of white violence. Name some historical instances that would back up your theory. Outside of the past 50 years maybe.

[Derek McGowan]

See, in your mind something like this

Is fine. Its fine because clearly the black person IS more violent so he should be arrested more. But at the same time you would cite these arrest records like racial profiling hasn't had an effect on it.

Circular reasoning? We say they are more violent, therefore we should lock them up more. They are locked up more which proves that they are more violent.

[Brant Gaede]

See, in your mind something like this

Is fine. Its fine because clearly the black person IS more violent so he should be arrested more. But at the same time you would cite these arrest records like racial profiling hasn't had an effect on it.

Circular reasoning? We say they are more violent, therefore we should lock them up more. They are locked up more which proves that they are more violent.

The police officer has to keep his situation safe. The two videos have nothing to do with any accumulation of usable data and justify no conclusion about black/white violence and prejudice. Context is everything and "legal carry" is next to nothing for context. Context comes from perceptions. If I'm in the woods during dear season--not such a good idea unless I'm hunting--and see two guys in yellow vests carrying long guns, it is not the same as me walking down the street legally carrying an M-16 in my surburban neighborhood. If I see someone else doing it I'm likely calling the sheriff.

The question of so many blacks in prison is first a question of nature vs nurture. Nurture explains a lot of it. The nurture of welfare and the subsidization of the destruction of poor families depriving the father of his role of provider. The nurture of the war on drugs that makes drugs expensive enough to make them profitably illegal so all these unemployed fathers get to make a lot of money selling drugs to white people if not themselves. Busted! You're in prison. Your second home. Etc. Now, nature? Racial inferiority in the brain department? Get rid of welfare. Get rid of the war on drugs. And above all get rid of the culture of victimhood--some justified but get rid of it all--go away for a hundred years, come back and see how well blacks are doing then in the brains department. While you're at it check out the prison populations. Maybe, just maybe, there'll be a disproportional number of bankers.

--Brant

super major video problem: two guys carrying their rifles two grossly different ways, but once the take-down it does imply racism but again, two different police agencies two different neighborhoods

[Mikee]

See, in your mind something like this

Is fine. Its fine because clearly the black person IS more violent so he should be arrested more. But at the same time you would cite these arrest records like racial profiling hasn't had an effect on it.

Circular reasoning? We say they are more violent, therefore we should lock them up more. They are locked up more which proves that they are more violent.

Derek,

This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

[Derek McGowan]

Derek,

This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

Im going to have to assume that you missed my point Mikee.

So, I will ask you, what do you think I meant to portray when I posted this video?

Was I attempting to showcase racism in America? That would be wrong.

Was I using this as a another foundation to my whites-are-violent-too narrative? Not at all

Is this to show that I am justified in feeling a certain way against whites? The fact is that I don't feel a certain way against whites. And I don't hate cops.

I posted this video, which shows one example (my thread on my run-ins with police is another, my thread on Affluenza is another) to discredit Peter's continuous reliance on incarceration rates to prove how violent and uncivilized the black race is.

If we can clearly see, from many records, not just this video, that blacks are locked up at a higher rate whether it is from racism, fear, or the police's personal experience then its not proper to use those numbers to justify such a position.

I could post another video where a affluent driver (white) ran over and killed a cyclist (also white) and got away scott-free. My point would be that you can't simply issue a blanket statement saying that the majority of people serving sentences in jail are poor, therefore the poor are uncivilized. No, you will have to break the data out much more than that because its clear that more of the rich would be serving higher rates jail time if not for their position and wealth. It distorts the numbers without considered nuance.

But again I ask, what do you think my point was in posting this video?

[Derek McGowan]

Context comes from perceptions. If I'm in the woods during dear season--not such a good idea unless I'm hunting--and see two guys in yellow vests carrying long guns, it is not the same as me walking down the street legally carrying an M-16 in my surburban neighborhood. If I see someone else doing it I'm likely calling the sheriff.

And some would be more likely to use the "context" of a black man carrying a weapon than a white man when calling the sheriff. Sounds the same to me

[moralist]

Derek, This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

Blacks are responsible for the disproportional response by law enforcement because of their values. 72% of black babies have no father. This is a black value. Blacks freely chose to embed it into their culture.

Fatherless children are:

• • 5 times more likely to commit suicide
  • 32 times more likely to run away
  • 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
  • 14 times more likely to commit rape
  • 9 times more likely to drop out of high school
  • 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
  • 9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution
  • 20 times more likely to end up in prison.

http://www.fathermag.com/news/2778-stats.shtml

This explains why Police are way more likely to draw down on a black than on a white:

Black Values

Greg

[Selene]

So is this the type of open conversation we are supposed to be having?

Charts and graphs and selected data?

[moralist]

"Studies either confirm what you already know by your own common sense... or they're wrong."

--Dennis Prager

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Derek, This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

Blacks are responsible for the disproportional response by law enforcement because of their values. 72% of black babies have no father. This is a black value. Blacks freely chose to embed it into their culture.

Fatherless children are:

• • 5 times more likely to commit suicide
  • 32 times more likely to run away
  • 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
  • 14 times more likely to commit rape
  • 9 times more likely to drop out of high school
  • 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
  • 9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution
  • 20 times more likely to end up in prison.

http://www.fathermag.com/news/2778-stats.shtml

This explains why Police are way more likely to draw down on a black than on a white:

Black Values

Greg

Oh, many whites have the same values.

This is one of at least two legacies of The Great Society of the 1960s. The other was augmenting government power by paying voters to vote Democratic.

--Brant

the more you get the more you want and the more you demand more and--hey!--it's a virtuous circle!

they're only "black values" because so many blacks practice reverse racism

gang "values" are generally racist--black gangs, hispanic gangs, aryan nation gangs

"talking white" has got to be the stupidest racist conformity crap put on I've ever heard

"He's an Oreo" isn't much better

if you study in school you're "being white"

why does this work?--because there is no Dad in the house to keep the trash out of his children's lives

[Mikee]

Derek,

This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

Im going to have to assume that you missed my point Mikee.

So, I will ask you, what do you think I meant to portray when I posted this video?

Was I attempting to showcase racism in America? That would be wrong.

Was I using this as a another foundation to my whites-are-violent-too narrative? Not at all

Is this to show that I am justified in feeling a certain way against whites? The fact is that I don't feel a certain way against whites. And I don't hate cops.

I posted this video, which shows one example (my thread on my run-ins with police is another, my thread on Affluenza is another) to discredit Peter's continuous reliance on incarceration rates to prove how violent and uncivilized the black race is.

If we can clearly see, from many records, not just this video, that blacks are locked up at a higher rate whether it is from racism, fear, or the police's personal experience then its not proper to use those numbers to justify such a position.

I could post another video where a affluent driver (white) ran over and killed a cyclist (also white) and got away scott-free. My point would be that you can't simply issue a blanket statement saying that the majority of people serving sentences in jail are poor, therefore the poor are uncivilized. No, you will have to break the data out much more than that because its clear that more of the rich would be serving higher rates jail time if not for their position and wealth. It distorts the numbers without considered nuance.

But again I ask, what do you think my point was in posting this video?

The meaning of your example, to me, is it was an example of the disparate treatment of blacks compared to whites by police. I pointed out that the police were clearly afraid when they were confronting the black man, not so much with the whites. The fear appears to be very real to me, in particular with the first officer confronting the black man. He was frozen with fear, he did not move or take his eyes off the man the entire time. The second officer was more relaxed, he appeared to be less threatened and behaved calmly and professionally. This single example has no statistical significance. Even a so called meta-analyis with tons of data is meaningless. With no controls data can mean anything. Your example, I believe, was someone's attempt at a controlled experiment. Which was actually useful. What I was trying to point out, inexpertly, was real fear is not racism. Your example showed a terrified sheriff's deputy. The question is why was he terrified? You cite several explanations for why blacks are locked up more than whites except for the possibility that a great many blacks share a contempt for law, police and the property and lives of other men, white or black, and act accordingly. Perhaps city cops all over the United States have felt great contempt, resistance to authority, threat to their well being, and it is real.

Some years back after a shooting of several white persons on a New York subway I watched a TV program where they were talking about it. The panel was a group of black college students. I believe the incident was the Long Island Rail Road Massacre and the killer was Colin Ferguson. I was shocked when the panel concluded that Colin Ferguson was justified in his rampage and murders because of the discrimination he had faced his whole life. I mean, not a little bit shocked, I was stunned. I still am. If college students believe killing random innocent white people has any justification at all racism is certainly not dead in America and it's not white racism. And I think things have gone down hill since then, a lot. You can very well say this small sample of college students is no more representative of the black population than any small sample is representative of anything. But this got national coverage and essentially no questioning about the point of view of the students. Accepting this viewpoint, that whites are all a bunch of racists who practice discrimination on a daily basis is wrong. You can always point out racists but the majority of whites are not. Kill a hundred random white men you're not likely to kill more than one or two racists. Can you say the same about blacks?

[Derek McGowan]

This explains why Police are way more likely to draw down on a black than on a white:

Also explains why judges are more likely to convict and give harsher sentences??

[Derek McGowan]

The question is why was he terrified?

Uh no, there is no question. Again, this was posted in response to something that Peter said not to make a separate point for myself and definitely not to accuse police or anyone else of being racist, fearful or any other thing. It doesn't matter if the group being arrested more often are space aliens who no one trusts. It doesn't even matter if the space aliens (or blacks) have historically been more prone to commit crime. All that matters is that that perception causes more arrests and that skews the numbers in the context that Peter is trying to use them. Again, refer to my poor incarceration rate analogy.

Peter doesn't even take Greg or Brant's stance in saying that currently the black community suffers greatly from lack of two person household (true) or the fact that "acting white" is the most ridiculous accusation ever uttered in the modern era (I mentioned this and several other downfalls of my community in my affirmative action thread) I could list the many problems in this generation of youth, from poor role models, to always trying to act hard and impress your clique/gang. But Peter states firmly that the evidence he sees in this and possible the last generation, supports the thesis that blacks are natively evil, lacking in intelligence, extremely violent and uncivilized. When you make a blanket statement like that its easy to poke holes in it. What worse for him is that he refuses to even acknowledge the very same behavior that exists in his own race of whom have had their civilization decimated by the presence of blacks

[Derek McGowan]

I mean, not a little bit shocked, I was stunned. I still am. If college students believe killing random innocent white people has any justification at all racism is certainly not dead in America and it's not white racism.

And yet you state that it IS justified for a white sheriff to treat a black man more harshly because of that white person's previous treatment??

thats a loss of credibility .....

p.s. not that I am in anyway sharing the belief of the college students. Everyone gets treated the same far as I'm concerned

[Mikee]

I mean, not a little bit shocked, I was stunned. I still am. If college students believe killing random innocent white people has any justification at all racism is certainly not dead in America and it's not white racism.

And yet you state that it IS justified for a white sheriff to treat a black man more harshly because of that white person's previous treatment??

thats a loss of credibility .....

p.s. not that I am in anyway sharing the belief of the college students. Everyone gets treated the same far as I'm concerned

I'm disappointed that you choose that interpretation of my meaning when it is so easily reasoned out. I know you're smarter than I am Derek. Justification has nothing to do with fear, I'm not justifying, I'm observing. In the one case we have a man who doesn't kill anyone but is obviously in fear of his life. In the other we have a man trying to kill dozens of unarmed strangers who are no threat to him at all. My question to you, to anyone, why would a person in the United States feel real fear in the presence of a stranger who is black rather than a stranger who is white? How did we get there? Who benefits from this situation? Am I just making this up because I'm a racist? Is that going to be your answer to everything? How is it I'm losing credibility and you retain your credibility? Why are people afraid of black men they don't know, more than whites? This is a fact. You know the answer.

[Brant Gaede]

Derek,

This doesn't help your argument. You can't fake fear. The cops were not very afraid of the white men, they were afraid of the black man. You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid? Real fear is not racism.

Im going to have to assume that you missed my point Mikee.

So, I will ask you, what do you think I meant to portray when I posted this video?

Was I attempting to showcase racism in America? That would be wrong.

Was I using this as a another foundation to my whites-are-violent-too narrative? Not at all

Is this to show that I am justified in feeling a certain way against whites? The fact is that I don't feel a certain way against whites. And I don't hate cops.

I posted this video, which shows one example (my thread on my run-ins with police is another, my thread on Affluenza is another) to discredit Peter's continuous reliance on incarceration rates to prove how violent and uncivilized the black race is.

If we can clearly see, from many records, not just this video, that blacks are locked up at a higher rate whether it is from racism, fear, or the police's personal experience then its not proper to use those numbers to justify such a position.

I could post another video where a affluent driver (white) ran over and killed a cyclist (also white) and got away scott-free. My point would be that you can't simply issue a blanket statement saying that the majority of people serving sentences in jail are poor, therefore the poor are uncivilized. No, you will have to break the data out much more than that because its clear that more of the rich would be serving higher rates jail time if not for their position and wealth. It distorts the numbers without considered nuance.

But again I ask, what do you think my point was in posting this video?

The black race isn't anything but a label. It isn't even blacks generally. My distant ancestors were all black. So were everybody's. I don't care if you're from Sweden. You too. Being black is to protect your skin from the sun. White folk are up north from the equator. If you're black and want to act white, put on sun screen.

--Brant

[Derek McGowan]

My question to you, to anyone, why would a person in the United States feel real fear in the presence of a stranger who is black rather than a stranger who is white?

They probably had either a bad experience in the past or they were given anecdotal information from one who had a bad experience, or they have only been watching and reading a select side of the media. I've actually have no problem with that but that why someone feels a certain why gives them no further justification then the black mass murderer who blamed his pass treatment

How did we get there?

I dont have the answer to that. Are you assuming that we should be at this junction of fearing a certain race and therefore being just a little extra-protective of yourself and family? My whole point in bringing all of my examples of white violence up was never to show racism on their part, justification of racism on my part, or any ill will I feel toward them (or you) because I don't have any of those feelings. The whole point was to show how ridiculous it is to look at some numbers (as i could easily do reading Nation of Islam propaganda) and use that to conclude that white people are generally evil. That is stupid for black people to do it and its stupid for Peter to do it.

Who benefits from this situation?

Don't know and don't care. Irrelevant to this whole discussion. We can start a new thread though...

Why would I label you a racist? Is it because the standard line is every black man who defends against statistics used out of context can only do this by deciding that the other person is a racist? When out of my 500 posts have I given the impression that I'm that sort of person? Are those people out there? Yes, of course but that not me.

Also, when was that my "answer to everything" ? Again, I had a thread on Affirmative action, many people disagreed with me, was my responses to them indicative of one who is looking to accuse those individuals as being racist? I don't even know where you got that from. I'll state for the record-

I don't think you are a racist even though you have disagreed with one of my posts. I don't thing Greg is a racist (far from it) though we have disagreed on numerous posts. In fact I'm one of those guys who truly does think that racism (white toward black) has declined tremendously and I personally have never felt a day of racism in my life, not working for a white guy (we've gone on bike rides together and I've been to all his houses) not dating a white Jewish girl for 3 years and being around her family, not going to a predominatly white college and not going to this 4th of July cookout (5th year running) where out of 50 people my family will be possibly once again the only black people there

Hey, you made the hypocritical statement

Again, the way you feel should have little bearing on how you act in such situations

[Derek McGowan]

It isn't even blacks generally.

That is the entire point I've been trying to make. Peter said it was blacks in general, I said it wasn't. Thats it