moralist Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I think that his technical point that no one deserves to be defrauded is correct... Fraud can only take place with the sanction of the victimespecially in the context of Greg's ideas on morality, which are based on nothing but logical fallacies.I get exactly what I deserve as the consequences of living by my values.You get exactly what you deserve as the consequences of living by your values.Everyone gets exactly what they deserve as the consequences of living by their values.GregSo when you're forced to pay taxes, and to therefore pay for governmental programs that you ideologically oppose, you're getting what you deserve as the consequences of living by your values?You therefore value being forced to pay taxes and to pay for what you don't believe it? Those are your values? Why don't you change your values instead of allowing yourself to be victimized like that?(shrug) I have no problem with that... Taxes are the cost of living in this world just as it is right now. I have no power to set government public policy, and because I have no control over government public policy I also have no responsibility for it.Now I do have the power to change how I live in this world just as it is right now. So I learned to live in a way so that paying taxes has no effect on the quality of my life in "Galt's Gulch". And because I am the only one who has the power to set the moral tone within my own sphere of personal influence... that is where my own personal moral responsibility rightly belongs. In America, the value of money is that it can be used to literally buy your economic freedom. So I'm totally ok with your expressed denial of moral causality for your own actions, because you're the one who gets the consequences you deserve from living by your own view... and not me. That's just the way the world is. People will always have different views.So live and die with yours, and I'll do the same with mine. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I too find it difficult to feel much anguish for a group of dupes who literally never checked any premises here.Ditto. I don't feel anything much beyond, "Wow, are those people stupid." But I don't think that they deserved to be screwed over just because they're stupid, just as I don't think that Cheryl Araujo, or anyone else, deserves to be raped.Leaving aside Greg's plodding around circular paths like a mine pony around a mine shaft, what about substituting "asked to be" for "deserved to be"? I don't see the people rooked in the Galt's Gulch business as morally innocent in their avoidable stupidity. (I don't know what the reference to Cheryl Araujo is about and didn't look it up. I'm reminded, however, of an argument one of the posters on Atlantis 1 and 2 used to make to the effect that a woman should be able to walk nude through any neighborhood without being raped and no blame attached for stupidity if she chose the wrong neighborhood.)Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I too find it difficult to feel much anguish for a group of dupes who literally never checked any premises here.Ditto. I don't feel anything much beyond, "Wow, are those people stupid." But I don't think that they deserved to be screwed over just because they're stupid, just as I don't think that Cheryl Araujo, or anyone else, deserves to be raped.Leaving aside Greg's plodding around circular paths like a mine pony around a mine shaft, what about substituting "asked to be" for "deserved to be"? I don't see the people rooked in the Galt's Gulch business as morally innocent in their avoidable stupidity. (I don't know what the reference to Cheryl Araujo is about and didn't look it up. I'm reminded, however, of an argument one of the posters on Atlantis 1 and 2 used to make to the effect that a woman should be able to walk nude through any neighborhood without being raped and no blame attached for stupidity if she chose the wrong neighborhood.)Ellen"Should be able to" is not the same as "should." I missed that philosophical reductionism back then. Any nudies in my neighborhood must be going about late at night*. I do want to see Godiva on her horse. So far only horses with fully dressed riders, albeit female. (What is it about females and horses starting in early adolescence?)--Brant*that's when I used to do it!hey!--Galt's Gulch should be perfect for that! (in the summer): here come John and Dagny . . .most people look better with some clothes on and the more the better (even Objectivists, I suspect)those Chile-rooked people pretty much got what they deserved in that case, but generalizations destroy and ignore myriad exceptions and Greg's moral narcissism is only good for a narcissist's narcissism and for those who don't swallow it whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 a woman should be able to walk nude through any neighborhood without being raped and no blame attached for stupidity if she chose the wrong neighborhood.Makes as much sense as: I should be able to leave the keys in my car and $50,000 in cash on the dashboard in Detroit.Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee said his officers are frustrated by the constant gunfire. "They are frustrated with how some homicides are so senseless," he said. "It's reckless; it's wanton. It baffles the imagination, and that's where the frustration is." Police are outgunned, Godbee said. "Officers now have a challenge with the high-powered weapons on the street, like the AK-47 and TEC-9, in the hands of individuals with very little to no respect for the community or law enforcement," he said. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20110902/METRO01/109020387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water.. Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 The Escape New York franchise becomes Escape Detroit.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water..Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round...And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water..Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round...And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution.It's get out, not wall in. They're too poor to follow you. They get a lot of freebies where they are, including defenseless victims.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek McGowan Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water..Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round...And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution.Hey, hold on one minute..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Lol Derek. Guys just keep your Augean stables solutions to your own side of the border, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 And don't use our water! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water.. Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round... And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution.Hey, hold on one minute..... Derek: Notice he did not say New York because just like Bogart said to the Major, there are some neighborhoods in New York City I wouldn't suggest you invade... A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Baltimore has huge fans in our family, me because of Laura Lippmann and my sons because of her husband, creator of the Wire.lay off Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water..Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round... And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution. Hey, hold on one minute.....Too late for that. There may be some irony involved. The last call for weapons of mass destruction was in favour of neutron-bombing the Arab/Muslim world (or some smaller nasty aspect of it). Disposing of the population of the cities named ... well, this may be the dream in somebody's heart, but I doubt it. The rather queer addition by Wolf seems to be that a firestorm of death is called for on a larger scale than merely drowning or burning everyone in Detroit ... I can't parse the reasoning behind nor the impetus for such funny remarks. Edited September 27, 2014 by william.scherk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Put a wall around Detroit, maybe fill it with water..Nah - jet fuel - then an incendiary mortar round... And then what? Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, D.C., Milwaukee... never have so many needed us for a creative solution.Cripes Wolf, where do you live? your profile doesn't say if it is Sodom or Gomorrah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 There was a time when Syria was exotically far away from us, yet we all have our appointments in Samarra.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Cripes Wolf, where do you live? your profile doesn't say if it is Sodom or Gomorrah.Pass the salt please.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Jonathan, you are the perfect sucker the cheats look for because you believe the lie that it's not your fault if you get cheated.I don't believe that it is not my fault if I get cheated. I believe that it may be my fault, it may be partially my fault, or it may not be my fault. It depends on the circumstances, the context....and that is what makes you the perfect sucker.Btw, if I'm the perfect sucker for cheats, why is that I've never been cheated?That's even better... you don't know it.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 And you moralist , do not know jack, or Jill either, or at least you pretend not to.I Cannot address you as Greg because I do not know Greg, I only know moralist, even though I know more personal stuff about you than of other OLers who feel like friends to me.I do know you purport to be a Christian, which I am also, but I do not, recall Christ advocating beyond the eye for an eye. He was kind of about forgiveness and common humanity and stuff which sounds so lame now, but was kinda revolutionary at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Yikes, looks like Paul Ehrlich isn't the only one wanting to see wholesale population control.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 The rather queer addition by Wolf seems to be that a firestorm of death is called for on a larger scale than merely drowning or burning everyone in DetroitI see it's easy to be misunderstood. My remark was intended to convey incredulity about water or fire, even as a joke, because the problem is bigger than one city, and I said that we're needed more than ever to offer a creative solution (something other than genocide -- duh).We can't carry on as we have, paying big benefits that Brant mentioned. It's a disease, metastatic and fatal.In the past I urged people to leave. That's not a cure. It's quitting -- undoubtedly correct for an individual, absolutely right and just. But the question remains, what can we do for the Republic? There must be something we can do to stop the bloodshed and free more victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Yikes, looks like Paul Ehrlich isn't the only one wanting to see wholesale population control.EllenYikes, looks like Paul Ehrlich isn't the only one wanting to see wholesale population control.EllenHey, he was pretty cute in 1974.How many kids he have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Jeeze guys I was being not literal here. Detroit is simply a symptom of what happens when welfare goes out of control.The more you give to the poor the less they are able to fend for themselves. It would be better to destroy the welfare system and lead them out od poverty by extending/paving the way for independence through economic freedom. When the government shows up and says "we are here to help" run the other way...Btw Bill here is an interesting article.http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 (What is it about females and horses starting in early adolescence?)What is it about males and horses? And males and dogs?My horse thing started before my consecutive memory started. I was already wanting a horse by at latest the age of three.I once asked my mother if she remember when it started, and she said, "I think your first word was 'Horse?', as in 'Can I have a horse now?'"Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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