It's official, I'm attending an Amway meeting. And I'm not bringing my wallet.

[Selene]

What are you studying Matt?

And, welcome to OL.

A...

[moralist]

Now, I don't remember hearing of Amway before our meeting. So, this may have been the first time I had heard of it.

(pssst... over here Kyle. Could I interest you in some bitcoins? )

Sure, you send me the coins and, then, I'll send you the money.

You already have the coins because they're virtual.

Greg

[moralist]

Ah, pyramid schemes are pretty popular at the university I attend. One of my friends got sucked into it, actually.

One of the best techniques that these people use is giving a free product when they first meet you.

For example, these two guys approached me at school one day. They said, "What's up, bro? Want a free drink?" and proceeded to attempt to give me a free energy drink, but I declined. The main goal of doing this is to take advantage of the principle of reciprocity, which is the notion that people want to repay, in kind, what another person has provided to us. Generally, when people do something "nice" for us, we have this feeling of obligation to repay them, especially if we don't identify the motive behind their "kindness".

I was prepared, though.

That's a useful principle to be aware of and you described it very well. I think of fake niceness as fish hooks to be avoided so that the barbs don't become embedded in your skin.

By the way, have I seen your screen name somewhere else? (edit) Ah, my mistake. It was someone else with one letter and one number different.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

You already have the coins because they're virtual.

Greg

That's two illusions in one person.

--Brant

[moralist]

You already have the coins because they're virtual.

Greg

That's two illusions in one person.

--Brant

Two, two, two mints in one.

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Had another one-on-one meeting a few hours ago. I told my recruiter that I couldn't justify to myself the $100 cost. After a lengthy critique and rebuttal session, he offered to pay my way. I told him I could just take the money and run. For whatever reason, he trusted me to attend.

I told him he impressed me by putting his money on the line. He was confident enough in this conference to pay my way. He put a lot of faith in me. I'm not usually one to back stab, but I may make an exception here.

Now, some of you cynics out there may think this guy is a criminal mastermind who decided to pay my way in order to guilt trip me later. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would do that. If this guy is just putting on act, well, he's Hollywood material. Though, he seems somewhat nervous when around me. Then again, my attentive stares can be quite scary.

Additionally, if this guy is trying to trap me in a guilt trip, he kind of has the wrong guy. Guilt trips haven't worked on me for years. something, something, overexposure.

Kyle,

I think your approach is off. You do not go to go to a "Vision Victory" to learn new concepts like lessons, nor do you go to be lied to or indoctrinated. Also, if you go and think you are going to outsmart those people, you will be fresh meat. They eat people like that for breakfast.

You go to those places to:

- Network,
- Get on an emotional high (they are very good at providing this), and
- Reverse engineer the experience.

I considered both the networking and potential to get high, both emotionally and otherwise, when deciding whether to attend this event. The third activity, however, I didn't consider or even acknowledge which I should have since you mentioned it in a previous post. Yes, I'll pay very close attention to the higher-ups in the organization. Humor is a common bonding technique, fortunately, I'm as funny as a clown whose bloated corpse just washed up on a beach.

Don't worry folks, I'm seeing a therapist.

...

(Or those people I indicated if free appeals to you. )

I do like free.

...

They know if you commit because you want to commit and go in with eyes open, you will pan out all right. If you go in drinking the KoolAid without any critical thinking, you will become one of those failures who end up embittered.

Michael

Well, I do like to think. I think I think enough for five people. Perhaps, if I maneuver myself just right, I'll be able to enter the organization free of charge. Peter Keating give me strength.

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

You already have the coins because they're virtual.

Greg

There are people stupid enough to fall for that. Fortunately, I only fall for pyramid schemes.

[moralist]

You already have the coins because they're virtual.

Greg

There are people stupid enough to fall for that. Fortunately, I only fall for pyramid schemes.

Good one!

[thenelli01]

What are you studying Matt?

And, welcome to OL.

A...

Thanks! I find some of the conversation on here too advanced for me at the moment, but I enjoy following along.

I am majoring in accounting and minoring in economics. :-)

Matt

[9thdoctor]

What are you studying Matt?

And, welcome to OL.

A...

Thanks! I find some of the conversation on here too advanced for me at the moment, but I enjoy following along.

I am majoring in accounting and minoring in economics. :-)

Matt

You're on OO under the same user name, right? Welcome to OL. I think we've interacted over there a little.

[moralist]

What are you studying Matt?

And, welcome to OL.

A...

Thanks! I find some of the conversation on here too advanced for me at the moment, but I enjoy following along.

I am majoring in accounting and minoring in economics. :-)

Matt

Hey Matt,

No wonder your screen name had seemed familiar. It was from when I was at OO, too. There's also another guy on a truck forum I frequent with almost exactly the same handle as yours. An interesting coincidence.

Take Care,

Greg

[thenelli01]

Hey guys, nice to "see" you again :-). Thanks for the welcome.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kyle,

Here's a little something to help you. Matt hinted at it with reciprocity, but Cialdini has another five.

If you use these principles in structuring your approach to prospects, you will do well.

Here's one way you can use this video. Take each principle, write it on a page, then list a minimum of five ways you can do something using that principle in what you are doing. Remember, you have to use this thing with the embedded principle BEFORE you ask the prospect to do something (give you an email, fill out a form, buy something, etc.). If you have trouble coming up with five, look up the principle on Google and pepper in words like sales, persuasion, script, etc.

Also, keep in mind that this stuff works by stacking, not on an individual basis. (That's not 100%, but in general.) In other words, if you half-ass it with just one instance of one principle, then notice that prospects aren't doing what you wanted, you did it wrong. You have to stack a bunch of these things on top of each other--all before you ask the prospect to do what you want him/her to do.

btw - There's a crapload more than Cialdini (and do get his book on influence--it's cheap and elementary preparation for anyone thinking of going into the MLM field: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion; almost all libraries have it, too). I'll dribble some of it out over time.

Second btw - To Matt. Welcome to OL.

Michael

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Kyle,

Here's a little something to help you. Matt hinted at it with reciprocity, but Cialdini has another five.

If you use these principles in structuring your approach to prospects, you will do well.

Here's one way you can use this video. Take each principle, write it on a page, then list a minimum of five ways you can do something using that principle in what you are doing. Remember, you have to use this thing with the embedded principle BEFORE you ask the prospect to do something (give you an email, fill out a form, buy something, etc.). If you have trouble coming up with five, look up the principle on Google and pepper in words like sales, persuasion, script, etc.

Also, keep in mind that this stuff works by stacking, not on an individual basis. (That's not 100%, but in general.) In other words, if you half-ass it with just one instance of one principle, then notice that prospects aren't doing what you wanted, you did it wrong. You have to stack a bunch of these things on top of each other--all before you ask the prospect to do what you want him/her to do.

btw - There's a crapload more than Cialdini (and do get his book on influence--it's cheap and elementary preparation for anyone thinking of going into the MLM field: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion; almost all libraries have it, too). I'll dribble some of it out over time.

Second btw - To Matt. Welcome to OL.

Michael

Thanks for the video, Michael. I watched it in its entirety and I will make a few comments about it in the near future. Right now, I'm just too tired to give a good response. I just got back from the Amway "Vision Victory" event.

Brief Edit: WOAH!!! I just realized how persuasive the techniques in the video can be. How did I discover this? I used them on myself.

[moralist]

Kyle,

Here's a little something to help you. Matt hinted at it with reciprocity, but Cialdini has another five.

If you use these principles in structuring your approach to prospects, you will do well.

Here's one way you can use this video. Take each principle, write it on a page, then list a minimum of five ways you can do something using that principle in what you are doing. Remember, you have to use this thing with the embedded principle BEFORE you ask the prospect to do something (give you an email, fill out a form, buy something, etc.). If you have trouble coming up with five, look up the principle on Google and pepper in words like sales, persuasion, script, etc.

Also, keep in mind that this stuff works by stacking, not on an individual basis. (That's not 100%, but in general.) In other words, if you half-ass it with just one instance of one principle, then notice that prospects aren't doing what you wanted, you did it wrong. You have to stack a bunch of these things on top of each other--all before you ask the prospect to do what you want him/her to do.

btw - There's a crapload more than Cialdini (and do get his book on influence--it's cheap and elementary preparation for anyone thinking of going into the MLM field: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion; almost all libraries have it, too). I'll dribble some of it out over time.

Second btw - To Matt. Welcome to OL.

Michael

I enjoyed that informative video. I've found that people generally want to interact with others on the basis of their goodwill, but not out of obligation. Out of their own decision to trust. It's very easy to earn the trust of others without trying to manipulate them into it. In fact that's one way to lose the trust of others.

Simply be the kind of person who is worthy of the trust of those who are trustworthy by upholding it.

Greg

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kyle,

Here is a marketer (Mark Hendricks) I came across a few years ago. He had a sneaky little way of using Cialdini's six triggers in the same marketing message. But, according to him, the triggers worked best in a certain order.

This order is:

Authority

Liking

Consistency (baby-steps)

Reciprocity

Social Proof

Scarcity

Later he posted a YouTube video explaining it.

btw - After messing with this for a while, I have discovered that Hendricks's sequence is a pretty good one, but you can mix the triggers up and still get a great result. Just make sure to hit all six.

The only real necessity I would emphasize is to put some kind of bonding spin on the first trigger at the beginning (authority and liking work great, but the others also mix well with bonding) and put scarcity at the end. This last is almost a law. You don't want to create a sense of urgency to act in the target, then keep blabbing. It's take out wallet time.

I was once discussing this with another person here on OL and I used this formula to make a point about marketing in a goofy sales message I made up (I can't seem to stop being sassy ). If you go through the message, you can tick off the triggers according to the list above--in the same order.

I was talking about how bad commoditizing was as a marketing approach and how O-Land people generally suck at sales because that is just about the only one they use.

... This is the worst approach possible, but it is the only one many people in our subculture understand. (They're only used to looking at this from the perspective of the producer, not the seller.)

For instance, we all have to eat. So if you are selling beans to a population that eats beans, qua commodity, you try to provide the best bean for the cheapest price until you reach a limit of viability. With stiff competition, meaning lots of competitors all doing the same, you can count on low profits.

But it's worse. Think about this. After a certain point, you can't really improve on a bean. And after a certain point on lowering prices, you go out of business. People just don't think much about beans (so you have to do it for them and get them to come along). The way most people think, the beans are either good or poor. They're just beans, after all.

Thus, a bad approach would be, "Yum! Blowhard Beans are so much better because they are always fresh, more nutritious, and at such a low price they are easy on your pocketbook."

I seriously doubt this message would influence anyone's buying behavior one way or another. Beans are beans and nobody pays attention to the writing. Besides, all the competitors are basically saying the same thing.

Now, let's push some marketing buttons and see what happens. I'll limit myself to the Cialdini six. so let's look at authority, liking, consistency, reciprocity, social proof and scarcity. This won't be the greatest marketing message since I'm doing it off the top of my head, but I'm sure you will see the difference.

First, you hone in on housewives as your demographic target. (You have done some studies and surveys along these lines, right?) But your main problem is you want to charge double the price others are charging. Now see how this plays. (If you imagine it with pictures and all jazzed up, it becomes even more powerful.)

It's a little tongue in cheek and the transitions are clunky because I started getting bored writing it.

==============

Did you know that Oprah eats Blowhard Premium Beans? Her super-smart genius nutritionist, Dr. Eatright, is the reason why.

He says, "I always recommend Blowhard Premium Beans because you have to be careful about what you put into your body. My research over the years and shown that Blowhard consistently surpasses all my health criteria. With a client as important as Oprah, I can't risk recommending anything less."

At our friendly farms where Blowhard Premium Beans are grown, you won't just find machines doing all the work. From farmers in the field to our office people, we are one big family of good people--just like you--and we are dedicated to getting the most wholesome beans on the planet on to your plate. We personally select each bean with care because we know how important your nutrition is.

Have you ever thought about doing a bean flush like Oprah did? It's simple and fun. You include one portion of Blowhard Premium Beans at lunch and one at supper every day for 30 days. Make sure you don't miss a meal. Then see how great you feel at the end. You won't be sorry.

Just to show you how serious we are at serving you, the next time you are shopping, tell the cashier you saw this ad and say the phrase, "Blowhard is a breeze." You will automatically get a free sample and a coupon you can mail in for our recipe book, Bean Vibes. Yes, this is the same one on sale in bookstores for 25 dollars, but it's yours free.

You will also get a study showing how many people choose Blowhard Premium Beans for their families in the USA. Good folks of all stripes eat Blowhard all the time, from the 99% to the 1%.

For instance, here is what sexy factory woman Annette Leary says. "Blowhard is one mean bean. I won't eat any other kind."

And the multi-mega-bazillion-gazillionaire who has more money than God, Arnold Allforme. "A portion of Blowhard beans is such a treasured addition to my cuisine, I can't imagine dining without it. My chef would certainly not approve!"

Join the millions who savor Blowhard Premium Beans the country over.

And now for a special deal, but it's only valid for the next two weeks. If you buy a case of Blowhard Premium Beans, you will get our delux Blowhard Premium Beanie. You can wear it anywhere to show you are a member of our exclusive Blowhard Beenie Bunch. This will entitle you to get special secret offers not available to anyone else. Sorry folks. You can only become a member if you are a Blowhard Beenie owner. So hurry and don't miss out. This offer expires on [DATE] or while supplies last.

Buy your Blowhard Premium Beans today!

==============

See?

Price is not really an issue. Hell, I didn't even talk about taste. And there are oodles more marketing triggers to pull.

If you get the marketing right, you can charge a ton-load more and people buy. If you get the marketing wrong, often you can't even give away a good product.

Rand didn't help much in her writing with understanding marketing and putting the customer first, but she did acknowledge this early in her fiction (in The Fountainhead) with Henry Cameron's administrative assistant. Once that "self-effacing" but iron-willed man left (or died--I don't remember correctly and don't have time to look it up), Cameron lost all his customers.

(Incidentally, Rand was pretty good at marketing herself. She just never talked about it. One day I am going to serve up a lot of examples with explanations.)

I am writing this presupposing you intend to provide something good for the customers' life that is worth more to them than the money they pay you. So long as this is true and you are convinced it is true, you have nothing ethically to worry about--even if you charge much more than your competitors.

However, you can do this persuasion stuff and be a dirtbag and it will work, but you will always have to find new customers. Your old ones will get pissed at you or tired of you after a while.

Using ethics, you will get long-term relationships with repeat buyers. You will get your own tribe, so to speak.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

If you are feeling lazy, here is the breakdown of the triggers with the beginning of each section.

[AUTHORITY] Did you know that Oprah eats Blowhard Premium Beans?...

[LIKING] At our friendly farms where Blowhard Premium Beans are grown...

[CONSISTENCY] Have you ever thought about doing a bean flush...

[RECIPROCITY] Just to show you how serious we are at serving you, the next time you are shopping...

[sOCIAL PROOF] You will also get a study showing how many people choose...

[sCARCITY] And now for a special deal, but it's only valid for the next two weeks...

[CALL TO ACTION] Buy your Blowhard Premium Beans today!

This last is not a trigger, but you always need a call to action at the end.

Always.

So do it.

Michael

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

I'll get to the videos. First, my thoughts on the Amway event, "Vision Victory".

It was a rather fun event, though, some sessions became a bit boring at times. I fought to stay awake at some of the sessions. It didn't help that I received only a few hours of sleep Friday night and Saturday night.

What I saw and experienced at this event is what I expect to experience at any business and marketing event. Deafening house music, light-shows, and inspirational speeches. There was only a one or two sessions, 2-6 hour sessions a day. Typically, the sessions followed a "problem, solution, benefit" approach. A speaker would tell you about his life before joining Amway, the problems he had, how he joined Amway, and how much he benefited from joining Amway. Tons of success stories were presented and making money was heavily emphasized. I got a little sick of it after awhile. Very little advice was given on how to exactly become so successful. The little advice that was given was general business advice: be passionate, committed, etc. Additionally, more specific advice was given at the VERY END of the event. Literally, this advice was given during the final five minutes of the last session on Sunday. And I missed most of it because I had to pee. I caught some of the final advice, but it was earth-shattering, but it was a lot more specific than the other advice given during most sessions.The lack of specific advice was disappointing...However, I didn't walk away from this event empty-headed. I learned a lot about audience "manipulation" and control. I learned how to instill motivation and inspiration. I'd say this was worth the cost of going to the event. I also learned some valuable interpersonal skills during this event.

During the event, a thought crossed my mind: maybe I had expected the wrong things from this event. But, in my defense, the sessions were called "training" sessions. What exactly were they training us to do? Make money? I expected at least some money-making techniques to be discussed.

A rave-party was hosted Friday night; it got a little out-of-hand. One of the participants broke his knee, somehow. No parties Saturday. I just explored the hotel, at 1:00 a.m., on Saturday, in search of snacks. Sunday had two sessions; a worship session and another "training" session. The worship session was pretty cool. They had a band playing Christian rock. Though, not really my style of music, I kind of liked it. I also got a cool Bible out of it.

I slept in a 2-bed room with a few other guys. Friday, there were six guys sharing the room (including me). Saturday night, the number dropped down to four guys (including me). I was not willing to share a bed with a guy, so I slept on the floor. Not the first time I slept on the floor. I slept fairly well, given my situation. I think, during Saturday night, I woke up, sat up, hit my head on the table I was sleeping under, and knocked myself back into sleep.

I don't regret going; it was kind of cool. Tons of pretty women and handsome men. Also, as mentioned above, I learned a thing or two about a thing or two.

[Selene]

Kyle, you learned, you had fun, win - win.

I don't regret going; it was kind of cool. Tons of pretty women and handsome men. Also, as mentioned above, I learned a thing or two about a thing or two.

I wonder where Objectivism would be today, if NBI had followed a marketing strategy that "mirrored" those successful methods you saw.

NBI meetings would never have had a "Rave."

The "social network" surrounding the NY NBI center was pitiful.

A...

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Michael, you're leaving me with tons of good information and advice, so...thanks! Why would I attend any Amway event for sales advice when I can just ask you?

I loved learning about Cialdini's six triggers. After learning of them, it almost seems like I knew of them all along. I'm currently reading a book titled The Dynamics of Persuasion. In this book, seven interpersonal persuasion techniques are discussed. These seven techniques are foot-in-the-door, door-in-the-face, low-balling, "that's not all" technique, fear-then-relief, pique technique, and disrupt-then-reframe technique. Concerning these techniques and persuasion, the book explains what works, how it works, when it works, and (my personal favorite) why it works. Here's a brief explanation of each technique. You may be able to see how some of Cialdini's six triggers are involved in the following techniques. Note, these techniques may be used in situations other than sales.

Foot-in-the-door: The seller gets the buyer to buy a low priced item, then offers a higher priced item. (The target price is the price of the higher priced item)

Door-in-the-face: The seller offers a high priced item and, upon refusal, offers a lower priced item. (The target price is the price of the lower priced item)

Low-balling: The seller offers a product at a low price and, then, increases the price when the buyers commits to the product. (The target price is the increased price)

"that's not all" technique: The seller offers a portion of an item at the target price and, later, adds the other portion of the product with a phrase akin to "that's not all". For example, a seller attempts to sell a bundle of cookies and cupcakes for $10. He separates the cookies and the cupcakes and tries to sell the cookies alone for $10. After the buyer refuses, the seller adds the cupcakes to the bundle "for free".

Pique technique: The seller piques interest by phrasing the sales message in an odd or unusual way. For example, "You can buy this bouquet for exactly 300 pennies."

Fear-then-relief: The seller stimulates a fear response and, then, a relief response coupled with his product or service. The customer associates the relief with the juxtaposed product.

Disrupt-then-reframe: The seller does something unusual to disrupt the customer's automated defenses and, then, reframes the message.

Some of the above techniques mesh with Cialdini's six triggers. You may be able to infer which techniques mesh with which of Cialdini's six. For example, the foot-in-the-door technique may rely on the consistency trigger. This involves self-perception. In a foot-in-the-door charity scenario, the customer, having acquiesced to the small request to give money to the charity, may view himself as a good person (this is the perception). This consistency factor works to ensure that the customer acquiesces to the larger request proceeding the smaller request.

This brings to mind a seemingly unrelated topic.

In political commentary, it seems that consistency is highly valued. Whenever a politician makes a move that is (or seems to be) inconsistent with his stated ideology, the appropriate media pounce on, and proceed to, viciously maul him. Politicians are routinely attacked for displaying purportedly inconsistent behavior. Allegations of hypocrisy seem to be surefire ammunition in the world of political commentary.

Things that make you go "hmmm"...

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

I don't know about you folks, but I find it difficult to talk to strangers. Today, or Yesterday to be accurate, I went to another Amway information session. After the session was over, I ran into an experienced Amway member. The conversation was awkward at best. The content was fine, but my presentation just plain sucked. Well, I guess I've gotten somewhat better over the years...

If I gain anything from this Amway deal, I hope it's better interpersonal skills.

This is my 333rd post. Another 333 posts and I'll get a free ticket to the next Amway conference.

The above joke has to be my worst joke yet. I better go to bed.

[Brant Gaede]

I don't know about you folks, but I find it difficult to talk to strangers. Today, or Yesterday to be accurate, I went to another Amway information session. After the session was over, I ran into an experienced Amway member. The conversation was awkward at best. The content was fine, but my presentation just plain sucked. Well, I guess I've gotten somewhat better over the years...

If I gain anything from this Amway deal, I hope it's better interpersonal skills.

This is my 333rd post. Another 333 posts and I'll get a free ticket to the next Amway conference.

The above joke has to be my worst joke yet. I better go to bed.

That's not bad. I had to use addition to really get it.

--Brant

after two more minutes I started chuckling

(I missed your best joke--what was that?)

[Jules Troy]

[moralist]

However, you can do this persuasion stuff and be a dirtbag and it will work, but you will always have to find new customers. Your old ones will get pissed at you or tired of you after a while.

Using ethics, you will get long-term relationships with repeat buyers. You will get your own tribe, so to speak.

Michael

That's an excellent point, Michael.

Marketing principles are just amoral tools, no better or worse than the person who uses them.

Greg

[Selene]

[CALL TO ACTION] Buy your Blowhard Premium Beans today!

This last is not a trigger, but you always need a call to action at the end.

Always.

So do it.

Michael

Michael, agreed.

Worst mistake an experienced politician can ever make is not personally asking for a citizen's vote no matter how many times they have been elected.

A...