It's official, I'm attending an Amway meeting. And I'm not bringing my wallet.

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

A bit of history, first, and then to the main point.

A few days ago, while I was innocently playing Left 4 Dead 2 on my PC, I received a strange Facebook message from a member of my 2010 high school graduation class. I'll post pictures of our Facebook conversation below:

So I called him and spoke with him for a few minutes. He told me that if I join his team, I would get my own promotional websites (from which to sell products) and a few other benefits. He told me he could explain it better to me in person. So, Saturday, I met him in person at a local business. He pulled out his tablet, and began a formal presentation. Not exactly what I expected. He told me about the company that hired him. The company's name was Amway. Supposedly, they were contracting him out as an "IBO" (Independent Business Owner). Supposedly, he markets Amway (and its subsidiary's) products.

Now, I don't remember hearing of Amway before our meeting. So, this may have been the first time I had heard of it.

Anyway, he tells me about Amway, its subsidiaries, and its products. He explained that if I paid $200, I would get a website and many benefits (funny, he didn't mention the $200 payment over the phone). He told me that if people bought through my website, I would receive commission on the products. I'm kind of into affiliate marketing, so this wasn't particularly alarming at the time. I told him I didn't have that kind of money and he told me it wasn't that big of a deal. Then, he asked if I knew of anyone who would be interested in this deal. I gave him a name and I told him I would contact her. Then, I left.

I got home and contacted the woman. I told her about the meeting and the deal. I told her I would perform more research and then get back to her. Additionally, I asked if she wanted to meet with us. Fortunately, she couldn't make it.

I contacted a friend who had once been involved with Amway, unfortunately, he has decided to not talk to me, for whatever reason.

Well, I performed research, and I didn't like what I found. I found reports of Amway fraud and pyramid schemes. Now, I didn't think Amway was a pyramid scheme at this time. The only thing I was certain of was that I needed more information.

I promised the guy I would meet with him, again, Sunday.

We met at the same place. He was there with another "marketer" from Amway.

We discussed my conversation with the woman. I only told him that she "might" be interested. A bit later, we spoke about attending an Amway class being held tomorrow (Monday) at 8:00 pm. I told him I would attend. Then, the other guy speaks up. He basically gave me a rundown about what exactly was going down. I don't remember his exact words, but when he spoke them, something clicked within me and the red flags went up. Shortly thereafter, I left the meeting.

I was certain that it was a pyramid scheme at this point. The guys below were buying goods marketed by the guys at the top, and the guys at the top got commission. Then, the guys at the bottom went and got some guys below them, in order to get commission every time someone below them bought a product off the above guy's site. The aforementioned probably seems very confusing. I'm working on little sleep, at the moment. I'll clear up any questions tomorrow.

After the meeting, I got home and told my Facebook friend to ignore whatever this guy sends her way.

And...here I am. A few hours away from my first Amway class.

I don't know how I'm, eventually, going to tell the guy I'm not interested. He seems innocent and unsuspecting. He also seems like a good guy.

I'm going to attend the class just to see what persuasion tactics they employ. I'm interested to see, from the inside, how pyramid schemes work.

Holy guacamole, it's The Zeitgeist Movement all over again!

[PDS]

I attended my first Amway presentation in 1982. Keep your head about you. Don't sign anything.

They are the Jehova's Witnesses of "multi level marketing."

[Francisco Ferrer]

In college I bought a couple of Amway cleaning products from an Objectivist. They were pricey but concentrated so that a little went a long way. They lasted for years. No complaints about the merchandise.

Much later I got to know an instructor at a local junior college. When I visited his home, I saw that he lived in a mansion modeled after Le Château de Fougères in France. Just inside the front door was a picture of President Reagan warmly gripping his hand.

I asked him what he did besides teach history. He opened a cupboard door. It was full of Amway bottles.

[jts]

Every pyramid has a bottom.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kyle,

I'm not an MLM basher, but this is not for everybody. (MLM = multilevel marketing.)

If you keep your ethics, have lots of innate drive, want to learn about motivating others (including yourself) and overcoming rejection, this can be a very lucrative field.

Very.

If you let yourself get dazzled by the motivational stuff and don't do the donkey-work, you end up buying tons of products and not selling them. This happens to a lot of people. And there is a physical reason. The motivational stuff releases dopamine, serotonin and other goodies in your brain. Rejection lights up the same areas of the brain that light up in physical pain.

I don't resonate with downlines and all that, so I stay away from this business model in general. However, I constantly watch videos of MLM superstars. These folks are very, very good at human nature.

If you are interested, I can point you in a few directions I believe are healthy. Amway is a good company, but it can get awfully campy and at times cult-like, but I only speak from things I have read, not from actual experience. Still, it is around and has been since the dinosaurs, meaning that it has been targeted by the government and lawsuits over and over and no one has been able to shut it down, so that's a plus.

Just keep your ethics. You will learn that manipulation works. The rule of thumb is to put yourself in the prospect's shoes and honestly ask yourself if you were that person, would that product add to his or her life, or would it be overpriced junk? If you think it is honestly a benefit, go for it. If you think it will be overpriced junk, find another company or get out of the business. That's my advice.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Michael

[PDS]

Kyle,

I'm not an MLM basher, but this is not for everybody. (MLM = multilevel marketing.)

If you keep your ethics, have lots of innate drive, want to learn about motivating others (including yourself) and overcoming rejection, this can be a very lucrative field.

Very.

If you let yourself get dazzled by the motivational stuff and don't do the donkey-work, you end up buying tons of products and not selling them. This happens to a lot of people. And there is a physical reason. The motivational stuff releases dopamine, serotonin and other goodies in your brain. Rejection lights up the same areas of the brain that light up in physical pain.

I don't resonate with downlines and all that, so I stay away from this business model in general. However, I constantly watch videos of MLM superstars. These folks are very, very good at human nature.

If you are interested, I can point you in a few directions I believe are healthy. Amway is a good company, but it can get awfully campy and at times cult-like, but I only speak from things I have read, not from actual experience. Still, it is around and has been since the dinosaurs, meaning that it has been targeted by the government and lawsuits over and over and no one has been able to shut it down, so that's a plus.

Just keep your ethics. You will learn that manipulation works. The rule of thumb is to put yourself in the prospect's shoes and honestly ask yourself if you were that person, would that product add to his or her life, or would it be overpriced junk? If you think it is honestly a benefit, go for it. If you think it will be overpriced junk, find another company or get out of the business. That's my advice.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Michael

MSK:

This is very good advice, in my opinion. I have often said--only partially in jest-- that I wished I had joined Amway in 1982, as I would be far better off financially than I am now.

Of course, I would be one of those annoying people with a breath-mint-sprayer-thingee at the ready for almost any occasion, so there are some downsides...

[Brant Gaede]

They're going to get you!

--Brant

you're the lamb; they're the lions (yum, yum!)

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

I've read and noted everything in this thread. I also performed a bit of research on multi-level marketing. I'll be attending the class at 8:00 pm this evening. It will likely last a few hours. I'll let you folks know what I experience at the class.

I know pyramid schemes are illegal, but are organizations that use elements of a pyramid scheme illegal? I think Amway gives the initial $200 investment to the recruiter. This is similar to how pyramid schemes operate.

[9thdoctor]

You can learn a lot about marketing from their script. I remember they tried hard to suck me in when I was about 18 and my escape hatch was the fact that I was living at home and couldn't justify to myself, over their skillful (surely scripted) answers to my objections, handing over $200 for cleaning supplies! Actually, it probably was more like $100 back then. I don't remember.

[deanwins]

Kyle,

From wikipedia:

The United States Federal Trade Commission (FTC) warns "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products."

Is it about selling stuff, or is it about recruiting?

Me personally, I don't really think I'd purchase from a salesman... I see other people use stuff I want, and then I go buy it from Amazon etc.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I know pyramid schemes are illegal, but are organizations that use elements of a pyramid scheme illegal?

Kyle,

Amway has an A+ rating from the Better Business Bureau (see here).

It is listed under the BBB categories of Accredited Business Directory > Multi-Level Selling Companies.

Michael

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

I just got back from an Amway class. I think I judged this Amway deal prematurely. I'm going to keep an open mind and collect more information.

You can learn a lot about marketing from their script. I remember they tried hard to suck me in when I was about 18 and my escape hatch was the fact that I was living at home and couldn't justify to myself, over their skillful (surely scripted) answers to my objections, handing over $200 for cleaning supplies! Actually, it probably was more like $100 back then. I don't remember.

Too this moment, I haven't been asked to purchase anything but an Amway membership which comes with the website, resources, and a few other benefits.

Kyle,

From wikipedia:

The United States Federal Trade Commission (FTC) warns "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products."

Is it about selling stuff, or is it about recruiting?

Me personally, I don't really think I'd purchase from a salesman... I see other people use stuff I want, and then I go buy it from Amazon etc.

There's an emphasis on both selling and recruiting. Selling is encouraged by commissions from sales and recruiting is encouraged by gaining "points" from downliner's sales.

Additionally, we aren't really acting as salesmen, per se. It's about selling stuff via the website Amway provides. During the meeting, members were encouraged to buy from their own website, in order to get something of a reimbursement on the products they buy. They were also encouraged to have friends and family buy through their own website. Downliners were never told to buy from their recruiter's website.

I know pyramid schemes are illegal, but are organizations that use elements of a pyramid scheme illegal?

Kyle,

Amway has an A+ rating from the Better Business Bureau (see here).

It is listed under the BBB categories of Accredited Business Directory > Multi-Level Selling Companies.

Michael

I'm glad you gave me an opposing opinion about Amway, Michael. If you hadn't given me one, I may have not kept an open mind about this Amway deal.

[Brant Gaede]

Ask yourself if you would use this stuff yourself?

--Brant

and pay retail

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kyle,

There are many, many MLM people who are inspirational, but there are three megastars in particular I have been following (mostly on YouTube) since around the time they were still nobody.

Diane Hochman

Mark Hoverson

Daegan Smith

Just search for their names on YouTube and you will find more videos than you will have time to watch.

The secret with these folks is to be very, very, very, very careful with your own reactions to the subconscious triggers they use. You will want to buy their shit after a while if you keep watching the videos and, even though it is probably all good (albeit expensive), if your purpose is to learn, there is a better way.

Reverse engineer what they are doing. Look inside your own mind and feel the urges and cravings at the time you feel them. Then ask yourself what they said that caused you to feel all that. And be as honest as you can (Rand's word "ruthless" comes to mind) about your own insecurities, biases and general profile, since you bring them all to the table every time you open yourself to these messages. (Including Amway.) Don't think these folks don't know it. They do.

But if you learn what they do and how to do it, you will have a very good financial future. And if you decide to use ethics, you will also be able to sleep at night in your mansion.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!

What would Howard Roark do?

--Howard Roark (Mr. Kelly is not speaking tonight. I have taken over OL)

grump!

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Ask yourself if you would use this stuff yourself?

--Brant

and pay retail

I always look to myself when trying to sell something to someone else. I ask myself "Would I buy this?" and "Why would I by this?". There are many things I don't buy, but a lot of people DO buy. For example, energy drinks. It's a huge market. I don't think I've bought an energy drink in all my life. Yet, I know people who consume energy drinks like they consume oxygen.

Therefore, I'm more concerned about the answers to the questions "Why would I buy this?" or, more frequently, "Why does anyone buy anything?".

And I know why people buy stuff.

Kyle,

There are many, many MLM people who are inspirational, but there are three megastars in particular I have been following (mostly on YouTube) since around the time they were still nobody.

Diane Hochman

Mark Hoverson

Daegan Smith

Just search for their names on YouTube and you will find more videos than you will have time to watch.

The secret with these folks is to be very, very, very, very careful with your own reactions to the subconscious triggers they use. You will want to buy their shit after a while if you keep watching the videos and, even though it is probably all good (albeit expensive), if your purpose is to learn, there is a better way.

Reverse engineer what they are doing. Look inside your own mind and feel the urges and cravings at the time you feel them. Then ask yourself what they said that caused you to feel all that. And be as honest as you can (Rand's word "ruthless" comes to mind) about your own insecurities, biases and general profile, since you bring them all to the table every time you open yourself to these messages. (Including Amway.) Don't think these folks don't know it. They do.

But if you learn what they do and how to do it, you will have a very good financial future. And if you decide to use ethics, you will also be able to sleep at night in your mansion.

Michael

I'm all about learning stuff, so thanks for recommending I watch those folks. I also like your method of reverse engineering their techniques and methods. I'll definitely have to do that when some of the Amway superstars speak.

Right now, they are really promoting "Vision Victory" which is a 3-day, weekend event at a place in Omaha; it costs $100 to attend. Of the two hours I was at the class, a full hour was spent promoting "Vision Victory". I'm told that if I attend I'll learn a lot from the Amway superstars. I asked my recruiter, who is a young guy himself, what I'll learn at this event. He told me that I'll learn that having control over one's attitude, changing a few things in one's life, and being committed are the keys to success.

After he told me what I would learn, I gave him an odd look. If he stared at my face for a few seconds, he would see that I was physically expressing the words "No, fucking, shit".

I've known that advice for a long, long time. I've known it for so long that I expect everyone to know it.

I'm not going to pay $100 just to party and get a few cliche pieces of advice. I don't even have $100 at the moment. My recruiter, and my recruiter's mentor, know I don't have the money, so my recruiter and I are going to discuss a few methods to get that money, this evening. Both my recruiter and his mentor think I'm going to give blood plasma in order to get the money to attend this "Vision Victory" party. The mentor called me today, at around noon, and gave me a "race car" analogy in order to convince me to go the "Vision Victory" party. Basically, the analogy highlighted the importance of what I would learn at this party, without telling me what I would learn. I'm still not convinced. Do these guys really think they can bullshit me so easily?

[PDS]

WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!

What would Howard Roark do?

--Howard Roark (Mr. Kelly is not speaking tonight. I have taken over OL)

grump!

Brant, you're mixing your metaphors again, but I like it!

[PDS]

Ask yourself if you would use this stuff yourself?

--Brant

and pay retail

I always look to myself when trying to sell something to someone else. I ask myself "Would I buy this?" and "Why would I by this?". There are many things I don't buy, but a lot of people DO buy. For example, energy drinks. It's a huge market. I don't think I've bought an energy drink in all my life. Yet, I know people who consume energy drinks like they consume oxygen.

Therefore, I'm more concerned about the answers to the questions "Why would I buy this?" or, more frequently, "Why does anyone buy anything?".

And I know why people buy stuff.

Kyle,

There are many, many MLM people who are inspirational, but there are three megastars in particular I have been following (mostly on YouTube) since around the time they were still nobody.

Diane Hochman

Mark Hoverson

Daegan Smith

Just search for their names on YouTube and you will find more videos than you will have time to watch.

The secret with these folks is to be very, very, very, very careful with your own reactions to the subconscious triggers they use. You will want to buy their shit after a while if you keep watching the videos and, even though it is probably all good (albeit expensive), if your purpose is to learn, there is a better way.

Reverse engineer what they are doing. Look inside your own mind and feel the urges and cravings at the time you feel them. Then ask yourself what they said that caused you to feel all that. And be as honest as you can (Rand's word "ruthless" comes to mind) about your own insecurities, biases and general profile, since you bring them all to the table every time you open yourself to these messages. (Including Amway.) Don't think these folks don't know it. They do.

But if you learn what they do and how to do it, you will have a very good financial future. And if you decide to use ethics, you will also be able to sleep at night in your mansion.

Michael

I'm all about learning stuff, so thanks for recommending I watch those folks. I also like your method of reverse engineering their techniques and methods. I'll definitely have to do that when some of the Amway superstars speak.

Right now, they are really promoting "Vision Victory" which is a 3-day, weekend event at a place in Omaha; it costs $100 to attend. Of the two hours I was at the class, a full hour was spent promoting "Vision Victory". I'm told that if I attend I'll learn a lot from the Amway superstars. I asked my recruiter, who is a young guy himself, what I'll learn at this event. He told me that I'll learn that having control over one's attitude, changing a few things in one's life, and being committed are the keys to success.

After he told me what I would learn, I gave him an odd look. If he stared at my face for a few seconds, he would see that I was physically expressing the words "No, fucking, shit".

I've known that advice for a long, long time. I've known it for so long that I expect everyone to know it.

I'm not going to pay $100 just to party and get a few cliche pieces of advice. I don't even have $100 at the moment. My recruiter, and my recruiter's mentor, know I don't have the money, so my recruiter and I are going to discuss a few methods to get that money, this evening. Both my recruiter and his mentor think I'm going to give blood plasma in order to get the money to attend this "Vision Victory" party. The mentor called me today, at around noon, and gave me a "race car" analogy in order to convince me to go the "Vision Victory" party. Basically, the analogy highlighted the importance of what I would learn at this party, without telling me what I would learn. I'm still not convinced. Do these guys really think they can bullshit me so easily?

Amway is not a scam. It is legit. My guess is that a reasonably bright person can make a reasonably good living within Amway, and sleep just fine every night.

The question you need to confront is whether you want to become one of those people, i.e., the type who condones/suggests giving plasma to pay an entry fee to go to a "Vision Victory" party.

I supect you can do better with your life than that. If you don't have a C-note to spare, don't spend it on some Amway speeches...

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Ask yourself if you would use this stuff yourself?

--Brant

and pay retail

I always look to myself when trying to sell something to someone else. I ask myself "Would I buy this?" and "Why would I by this?". There are many things I don't buy, but a lot of people DO buy. For example, energy drinks. It's a huge market. I don't think I've bought an energy drink in all my life. Yet, I know people who consume energy drinks like they consume oxygen.

Therefore, I'm more concerned about the answers to the questions "Why would I buy this?" or, more frequently, "Why does anyone buy anything?".

And I know why people buy stuff.

Kyle,

There are many, many MLM people who are inspirational, but there are three megastars in particular I have been following (mostly on YouTube) since around the time they were still nobody.

Diane Hochman

Mark Hoverson

Daegan Smith

Just search for their names on YouTube and you will find more videos than you will have time to watch.

The secret with these folks is to be very, very, very, very careful with your own reactions to the subconscious triggers they use. You will want to buy their shit after a while if you keep watching the videos and, even though it is probably all good (albeit expensive), if your purpose is to learn, there is a better way.

Reverse engineer what they are doing. Look inside your own mind and feel the urges and cravings at the time you feel them. Then ask yourself what they said that caused you to feel all that. And be as honest as you can (Rand's word "ruthless" comes to mind) about your own insecurities, biases and general profile, since you bring them all to the table every time you open yourself to these messages. (Including Amway.) Don't think these folks don't know it. They do.

But if you learn what they do and how to do it, you will have a very good financial future. And if you decide to use ethics, you will also be able to sleep at night in your mansion.

Michael

I'm all about learning stuff, so thanks for recommending I watch those folks. I also like your method of reverse engineering their techniques and methods. I'll definitely have to do that when some of the Amway superstars speak.

Right now, they are really promoting "Vision Victory" which is a 3-day, weekend event at a place in Omaha; it costs $100 to attend. Of the two hours I was at the class, a full hour was spent promoting "Vision Victory". I'm told that if I attend I'll learn a lot from the Amway superstars. I asked my recruiter, who is a young guy himself, what I'll learn at this event. He told me that I'll learn that having control over one's attitude, changing a few things in one's life, and being committed are the keys to success.

After he told me what I would learn, I gave him an odd look. If he stared at my face for a few seconds, he would see that I was physically expressing the words "No, fucking, shit".

I've known that advice for a long, long time. I've known it for so long that I expect everyone to know it.

I'm not going to pay $100 just to party and get a few cliche pieces of advice. I don't even have $100 at the moment. My recruiter, and my recruiter's mentor, know I don't have the money, so my recruiter and I are going to discuss a few methods to get that money, this evening. Both my recruiter and his mentor think I'm going to give blood plasma in order to get the money to attend this "Vision Victory" party. The mentor called me today, at around noon, and gave me a "race car" analogy in order to convince me to go the "Vision Victory" party. Basically, the analogy highlighted the importance of what I would learn at this party, without telling me what I would learn. I'm still not convinced. Do these guys really think they can bullshit me so easily?

Amway is not a scam. It is legit. My guess is that a reasonably bright person can make a reasonably good living within Amway, and sleep just fine every night.

The question you need to confront is whether you want to become one of those people, i.e., the type who condones/suggests giving plasma to pay an entry fee to go to a "Vision Victory" party.

I supect you can do better with your life than that. If you don't have a C-note to spare, don't spend it on some Amway speeches...

I would have no problem giving plasma to get the money if I knew that I would learn some sage-like wisdom from these superstars. But, I don't know that. I don't even suspect I'll learn anything like that. And, like I said, I'm not going to pay $100 to party and learn a few success cliches. I can buy a bottle of cognac, invite some guys, and have my own party all for under $20.

[moralist]

Now, I don't remember hearing of Amway before our meeting. So, this may have been the first time I had heard of it.

(pssst... over here Kyle. Could I interest you in some bitcoins? )

[Jonathan]

What I've never understood is why anyone would accept being at the bottom of the MLM pyramid. If you're willing to sell and recruit, why not start at the top? Make your own pyramid. The product is never really important, be it soap or soda or sex toys or steaks. So, just find an existing generic product that you think you can sell, and that you think you can convince others to sell, rebrand it, and, badabing, you're at the top of the pyramid, and none of the fruits of your labors go to others.

J

[BaalChatzaf]

Why does Amway remind me of a Ponzi Scheme?

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

Now, I don't remember hearing of Amway before our meeting. So, this may have been the first time I had heard of it.

(pssst... over here Kyle. Could I interest you in some bitcoins? )

Sure, you send me the coins and, then, I'll send you the money.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kyle,

I think your approach is off. You do not go to go to a "Vision Victory" to learn new concepts like lessons, nor do you go to be lied to or indoctrinated. Also, if you go and think you are going to outsmart those people, you will be fresh meat. They eat people like that for breakfast.

You go to those places to:

- Network,

- Get on an emotional high (they are very good at providing this), and

- Reverse engineer the experience.

There is great value if you do it that way. You need all three to make a success in MLM. (I speak from years of careful observation from watching insiders grow, so to speak, and mulling it over.)

If you do it any other way, you will accomplish nothing at best and get burned at worst.

Once again, MLM is extremely lucrative if you have the knack for it.

My advice is to approach this as you would any opportunity. Identify correctly first, evaluate, then act. In my view, the best way to identify is to start by observing with your own eyes and ears. What better way than a relatively inexpensive meeting?

(Or those people I indicated if free appeals to you. )

Incidentally, if you show my comments to any of the more senior people at Amway, I have very little doubt they would agree with me--in both the good and the bad.

They know if you commit because you want to commit and go in with eyes open, you will pan out all right. If you go in drinking the KoolAid without any critical thinking, you will become one of those failures who end up embittered.

Michael

[thenelli01]

Ah, pyramid schemes are pretty popular at the university I attend. One of my friends got sucked into it, actually.

One of the best techniques that these people use is giving a free product when they first meet you.

For example, these two guys approached me at school one day. They said, "What's up, bro? Want a free drink?" and proceeded to attempt to give me a free energy drink, but I declined. The main goal of doing this is to take advantage of the principle of reciprocity, which is the notion that people want to repay, in kind, what another person has provided to us. Generally, when people do something "nice" for us, we have this feeling of obligation to repay them, especially if we don't identify the motive behind their "kindness".

I was prepared, though.