Police Shoot Mental Guy With Knife 9 Times on Streetcar in Toronto

[Dglgmut]

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=193714

Jeremy Ing, a passenger on the streetcar who witnessed the events leading up to the shooting, told NOW Magazine:

I was on a westbound 505 Dundas car, preparing to exit at Grace Street. I had my headphones in, so I was interrupted by the shrill screams of young girls, from the back of the car. And when I turned to see what was goin' on, some guy had stood up from his seat with his dick in his hand and also holding a knife. And then as soon as everybody recognized that, they scurried to the front of the car. It took maybe, like, five seconds or so before the streetcar driver realized what was goin' on and opened the doors up. So everybody flooded out, like disorderly, onto the street.

The guy remained on the car with the driver for a while. Eventually, maybe like two minutes later or so, the driver managed to get off and then the cops showed up and they basically swarmed it. And then they told him to drop the knife, like many times. And I guess he didn't comply or whatever, and fired off, I dunno, like eight shots or so.

There is a video in the link.

So here police shoot a guy for holding a knife. Does pulling out a knife in public imply you are putting yourself at risk of being killed--yes.

In this specific case did the police need to shoot (rather than Tase), let alone kill, this mental person?

People are talking about how it was definitely uncalled for... but if you compare it to their reactions to private citizens using deadly force in self-defense, even when necessary, this is essentially a non-issue.

And had the guy not been insane, would he have gotten the sympathy that has fueled the indignation in comment sections of the many websites covering this story?

Police are not super humans. Until anti-gun nuts gather the balls to go after law enforcement's guns they're just making noise.

[caroljane]

II have deliberately not looked up anything about this beyond the initial post. I regularly travel on that streetcar and live one block from the Queen Street Mental Health Centre, and know many of the outpatients as nodding neighbours. In my opinion, `mental``, crazy, out of control, loonies do not need to be killed, and not ought to be, unless they pose imminent and irrefutable death threat to others.

[BaalChatzaf]

how can anyone shoot someone with a knife. Shooting requires a firearm or a bow and arrow.

[caroljane]

I have now checked out the news reports. «Glad to see the SIU is immediately investigating. Sure the shooters will get exonerated one way or another, but at least they will hae to go through a few hoops.

[caroljane]

Calvin, are you reading the same news reports I am

The guy was totally alone on the steetcar, threatening nobody, albeit holding a knife and maybe with his pants down, but. How this justifies shooting him dead beats me, but I know the Toronto police and I am sure they will explain it to everyone`s satisfaction.

[caroljane]

This is probably even more infuriating to the Toronto police officers who a few days ago, arrested a knife-wielder who had just murdered three people, without incident or harm to officers or suspect. »This happens all the the time and should be acknowledged.

[caroljane]

As documented, there were at least four heavily armoured policemen there who could easily have overpowered and disarmed him of his knife. Yet they shot him dead. I am appalled and revolted.

[Brant Gaede]

Not commenting on this case, but there are self defense circumstances justify shooting a man with a knife.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Not here, there weren't.

[anthony]

Not here, there weren't.

Right you are. Got him cornered on a bus? Batons, taser or tear gas. One should expect a lot more forbearance from trained police officers (well in control of the situation) than from a citizen in imminent danger from an attacker. They should lose their badges.

[caroljane]

they should lose their liberty. But the very most they are likely to lose is a few days' pay, if even that.

[Brant Gaede]

Youse guys are witnesses?

One problem of many cops on a bus is they can't get out of their own way so if the one with the knife comes at them they can't back up very well, bumping into each other. So, Bang!, Bang!, Bang! Another problem is if one shoots the others tend to join in. So, Bang!, Bang!, Bang!--and Bang! again!

Here in Tucson a 14 yo stole a road grader and the cops followed him for miles. Then he ended up on a dead-end not far from my home. (I know the dead-end). The cops were piled up behind him. The kid decided to back up. To protect his fellow cops one cop shot him once. Subsequently, the kid lost the ability to walk. What no one involved then knew was that just behind the driving position was a vertical hydraulic cylinder. One bullet into that and hydraulic pressure would have been lost and the grader's grader would have dropped and the vehicle stopped, unable to move.

Many people have called 911 for help with fatal and tragic results, including me (though no shots were fired except five tasers and about as many shotgun bean-bag rounds, all of which had little effect except to make crazy crazier).

--Brant

[anthony]

Why the haste? Must have been lunch time.

Simpler to toss in some tear gas, close off the bus and come back later after a leisurely bite.

I was at a police training camp once and heard the British Sergeant tell off his recruits "I never want to hear of any of you pulling his firearm on a lone man with a knife. That's what you trained with a baton for."

I admit that was many years ago.

[caroljane]

Brant, the guys and gals who were witnesses (the passengers) have confirmed that the knife holder made no move to attack the police. Duff Campbell, who was within inches of the brandished knife, told the Toronto Star, ". thought he was crying out for help" and "I don't think he wanted to hurt anybody. He could have hurt people, and he didn't". Instead he ordered them out of the car.

Sammy Yatim, dead at 18, was described by a neighbour as "a sweet, friendly kid who was close to his family and on the right path." He had graduated from a Catholic high school and was studying business.

[Dglgmut]

Why don't you all just watch the video instead of guessing what could have happened...

And Carol, the only witness I have read a comment from said the guy made a move towards the cops, but still, he was on the streetcar and they were outside...

[anthony]

Why don't you all just watch the video instead of guessing what could have happened...

And Carol, the only witness I have read a comment from said the guy made a move towards the cops, but still, he was on the streetcar and they were outside...

Right: midnight, not lunch time. A streetcar, not a bus. What else have I missed? Still unnecessary force against an outnumbered and cornered man. I don't like trigger happy uniforms in your country as in my own.

[Dglgmut]

Yes. My point was that this is a clear example that police can be just as irresponsible with guns as anyone else.

Shit happens, but it is the exception and not the rule. How many lives have police saved with their guns? How many violent crimes have been stopped or even prevented by the knowledge that police have guns?

It's no different with private citizens.

The government is not competent enough to keep irresponsible people out of any position. On a local level, sure, better yet consumers could definitely find non-violent ways to prevent businesses from putting guns into the wrong hands... as well as private companies doing effectively the same thing as background checks without public (guaranteed) funding...

We just need to minimize violently imposed laws as much as possible... I can't imagine a private protection agency shooting a man to death from 20 feet away...

A democrat on MSNBC, I think, was saying how the right wingers need to stop arguing their politics from a principle foundation, but should focus on what is practical. I didn't like hearing that at first, but now I agree... You can argue on principle all you want, but you still have to answer the question: "Why?"

Principles are not an end in themselves, they are guides... but you have to prove they have some value before you shove them down people's throats.

Objectivism, as it is generally represented, is its own worst enemy in the world of politics... The left has the value-premises which are clear and attractive, like having a social conscience, but it doesn't deliver what it promises... But then there's Libertarians and Objectivists arguing for their politics that would deliver the goods, but with the worst sales pitch imaginable...

Thomas Sowell was right when he said there are generally two types of people in the world, talkers and doers. The right is filled with doers who can't communicate.

[caroljane]

Yeah, two types of people in the world. Those who divide the world into two types of people (take a bow, Ayn Rand!) and those who don't.

[Dglgmut]

At least it's a grouping based on one's choices rather than skin color or gender or financial situation as socialists like to use to divide people.

[Darrell Hougen]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

My opinion. Absolutely avoid any contact with the police if at all possible. If you don't get shot or beat up, you'll get caught in the grinding teeth of the legal system which is designed to ruin people's lives.

What is the solution? I don't know. People are people. Some cops are thugs. Police are clearly necessary to go after the really bad people among us. But, I've witnessed --- not first hand --- numerous incidents of police violence over the years and I don't feel like the situation is getting any better.

Police are trigger happy. There was a report out some time ago --- maybe a decade by now --- that something like 30% of all gunshot wounds sustained by police were inflicted by other police. There was a case not too long ago in Denver in which a cop mistakenly shot and killed another cop. And, sometimes the cops just surround a suspect with a circular firing squad and open fire. You'd think they'd at least try to avoid shooting each other. But, even if they did, there would still be way too many unjustified shootings, in my view.

Darrell

[caroljane]

. Darrell, thanks for the lol and a good post.

The knife reportedly was 3 inches (I don't know if that was the whole knife or just the blade) obviously well able for a teen who may have been trained in MMA to simultaneously attack and murder all four of our defenceless, brave, ethical Servers and Protectors. As he stood alone the police were yelling at him,,"Don't move!" but it appears he actually did move. So got, apparently, what he deserved.

[Brant Gaede]

The video was horrible. Three shots fired then after several seconds, six more.

Probably 9mm semi auto. Could be from one gun.

--Brant

so much for Canadian anti-American hubris

I think I'll try Fairbanks; Toronto's too violent for me

[Darrell Hougen]

As an aside, I was once chased by a man with an Exacto knife (with a one inch blade), but, I'm not trained in fighting and didn't have a night-stick.

Darrell

[caroljane]

Brant, I don't blame you for gloating. I think I will go to the protest tomorrow. I will just refer to my previous post about peaceful disarmament, which does happen here quite often, and of course reiterate that I think even cops should only have batons and tasers and teargas or whatever.

[Brant Gaede]

Brant, I don't blame you for gloating. I think I will go to the protest tomorrow. I will just refer to my previous post about peaceful disarmament, which does happen here quite often, and of course reiterate that I think even cops should only have batons and tasers and teargas or whatever.

Unless it turns out the guy with a knife really had a gun, it looks like manslaughter on the face of it. Either it was one cop's gun or two. The evenly spaced shots tend to rule out any more than that.

The military trained me to kill, not take prisoners. I was always sensitive to the difference from then--mid-sixties--to now of the essential difference between the mind set and competence of the military vs the police and admired the police for their supposed extra layer of competence. That's been continually evaporated as the police have become more and more militarized.

I'm not really gloating, Carol, but I didn't expect such a news story from Canada. While Canada is economically mostly a string of cities bordering the United States it has its own distinct cultural and political identity. I do not like this kind of meld. The U.S. can be a very tough place depending on who you are and where you are in it. I drove an 18-wheeler into Canada two or three times over a decade ago and I always found Canadians, including the French Canadians, interesting, kind and helpful.

--Brant

then, again, I didn't meet you