Police Shoot Mental Guy With Knife 9 Times on Streetcar in Toronto

[caroljane]

Brant, I don't blame you for gloating. I think I will go to the protest tomorrow. I will just refer to my previous post about peaceful disarmament, which does happen here quite often, and of course reiterate that I think even cops should only have batons and tasers and teargas or whatever.

Unless it turns out the guy with a knife really had a gun, it looks like manslaughter on the face of it. Either it was one cop's gun or two. The evenly spaced shots tend to rule out any more than that.

The military trained me to kill, not take prisoners. I was always sensitive to the difference from then--mid-sixties--to now of the essential difference between the mind set and competence of the military vs the police and admired the police for their supposed extra layer of competence. That's been continually evaporated as the police have become more and more militarized.

I'm not really gloating, Carol, but I didn't expect such a news story from Canada. While Canada is economically mostly a string of cities bordering the United States it has its own distinct cultural and political identity. I do not like this kind of meld. The U.S. can be a very tough place depending on who you are and where you are in it. I drove an 18-wheeler into Canada two or three times over a decade ago and I always found Canadians, including the French Canadians, interesting, kind and helpful.

--Brant

then, again, I didn't meet you

lol. But you did meet me in a way. If you had driven right across the country I think you would have found the same attitudes and types of people everywhere. Despite regional differences there is a cultural unity among Canadians that maybe is not so pervasive in the US. Much less Heat in our Night.

[caroljane]

It looked like a few hundred at least at the protest. \\\it appears now there was only one shooter officer. The most poignant thing I saw at the memorial site was one message, "you mattered".

Sammy came here five years ago from Syria, Talk about appointments in Samarra.

[caroljane]

The "subject officer" has been suspended from duty, with pay . this is in fact not routine in such cases, nor is the Chief of Police making a very conciliatory statement to the dead boy's family. There are 22 "witness officers" plus the videos and several passenger witnesses.

[caroljane]

Here is what haunts me. After the first three shots, when Sammy was lying on the floor motionless, he might possibly have been still alive.

Still alive.

[caroljane]

Brant, I don't blame you for gloating. I think I will go to the protest tomorrow. I will just refer to my previous post about peaceful disarmament, which does happen here quite often, and of course reiterate that I think even cops should only have batons and tasers and teargas or whatever.

Unless it turns out the guy with a knife really had a gun, it looks like manslaughter on the face of it. Either it was one cop's gun or two. The evenly spaced shots tend to rule out any more than that.

The military trained me to kill, not take prisoners. I was always sensitive to the difference from then--mid-sixties--to now of the essential difference between the mind set and competence of the military vs the police and admired the police for their supposed extra layer of competence. That's been continually evaporated as the police have become more and more militarized.

I'm not really gloating, Carol, but I didn't expect such a news story from Canada. While Canada is economically mostly a string of cities bordering the United States it has its own distinct cultural and political identity. I do not like this kind of meld. The U.S. can be a very tough place depending on who you are and where you are in it. I drove an 18-wheeler into Canada two or three times over a decade ago and I always found Canadians, including the French Canadians, interesting, kind and helpful.

--Brant

then, again, I didn't meet you

lol. But you did meet me in a way. If you had driven right across the country I think you would have found the same attitudes and types of people everywhere. Despite regional differences there is a cultural unity among Canadians that maybe is not so pervasive in the US. Much less Heat in our Night.

Further thought, this is likely because as you say, most of us live in cities along the border. Also there are only 33 million of us, a significant proportion being immigrants. We have fewer reasons to be suspicious of strangers and more to bond around common concerns. Our .immigrants are not as concentrated in suburban ghettoes, as in France eg. Our immigrants, like yours with bad exceptions, tend to respect the new county's culture in the first generation, embrace it in the second, and embody and enhance it in the third (Nehdri, Kadri et many al)

I'll take this opp to repeat one of my fave Kadri anecdotes. His Lebanese grandparents do not speak great English but attend his games faithfully, although their grasp of hockey's rules are still sketchy. Grandma always refers to the penalty box as the "jail". I like to imagine her doing her morning shopping:

Morning, Mrs K! How's the family?

All well thank God! My grandson he was only in jail two times this weekend!

[caroljane]

Depressingly, the spin is unfolding just like I predicted. The shooter's lawyer, Brauti, gave an interview saying that an inquest process would be far more appropriate than criminal charges for his fine, dedicated family man client.

Sure. Every inquest process recommends changes to training and response procedures. But a few, a very few of the criminal charges get a bad cop convicted.

The interview revealed a horrifying detail. Toronto cops are trained to "shoot to kill" when their judgement tells them to shoot. Military style as Brant described. So Forcillo was just following procedure.This protocol has been protested literally hundreds of times, by the provincial ombudsman, by the SIU itself, as well as in recommendations from coroners of the inquests. No response ever heard from the police authorities.

Furthermore the officer is of course, well respected by his peers.

[Brant Gaede]

Shoot to kill is the way it's done once you start shooting. Deadly force is lethal force. There's no in between. If you are justified to shoot someone you are legally justified to kill him. If you can, you should try to so he doesn't kill you.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

If you have to shoot, shoot to kill, not to wound. If you have not got it in you to shoot to kill, then do not use fire arms except at a target shooting range.

[caroljane]

It is the judgement call of "have to shoot" that is in question in this case.

[Dglgmut]

It is the judgement call of "have to shoot" that is in question in this case.

You were the one who brought up the "shoot to kill" thing.

But yeah, he didn't have to shoot at all.

[caroljane]

You are right, he didn't. The shoot to kill rule should stay with the army and the police should be trained to take prisoners alive. That is their job.

For God's sake, 90% of the people cops deal with are agitated, irrational , drunk, high, mentally ill, having a sudden breakdown or a combination of these. The job of the police is to deal with them without incurring harm to the public or themselves, and they usually manage to do that without killing them.

[Dglgmut]

Brant already said it: if they are shooting, they are trying to kill.

They shouldn't be shooting to wound, that doesn't make sense. If they can get away with that, then they could have done something else anyway.

Shooting to kill obviously has uses. A hostage situation is one. Killing is not the goal, but it is the only way to effectively take people out in certain situations. Until they invent something that can render someone disabled as effectively as a shot to the head, guns will have their place.

[caroljane]

Brant already said it: if they are shooting, they are trying to kill.

They shouldn't be shooting to wound, that doesn't make sense. If they can get away with that, then they could have done something else anyway.

Shooting to kill obviously has uses. A hostage situation is one. Killing is not the goal, but it is the only way to effectively take people out in certain situations. Until they invent something that can render someone disabled as effectively as a shot to the head, guns will have their place.

Sure. There were no hostages in this case as you know, and I know that you agree there was no compelling reason to shoot at all.

The shoot to kill rule for police has a powerful incentive. The dead cannot testify in court or bring suit against their assailants.

[Brant Gaede]

Brant already said it: if they are shooting, they are trying to kill.

They shouldn't be shooting to wound, that doesn't make sense. If they can get away with that, then they could have done something else anyway.

Shooting to kill obviously has uses. A hostage situation is one. Killing is not the goal, but it is the only way to effectively take people out in certain situations. Until they invent something that can render someone disabled as effectively as a shot to the head, guns will have their place.

Sure. There were no hostages in this case as you know, and I know that you agree there was no compelling reason to shoot at all.

The shoot to kill rule for police has a powerful incentive. The dead cannot testify in court or bring suit against their assailants.

The "rule" applies to everybody, the only question is when to shoot and when not to, not your original shot to wound stuff. As for what happened in Toronto, I'm waiting for at least a manslaughter indictment. After three shots there was a need for 6 more?

--Brant

completely dubious about that

[caroljane]

Plus the taser, the final insult to the mortal injury. I suppose that was following the procedure, only backwards.

The saddest thing that I have heard is that Sammy was still alive when carried out of the streetcar. His last knowledge of life on earth was what had been done to him.

[caroljane]

Const. James Forcillo has been charged with second-degree murder.

[Brant Gaede]

Const. James Forcillo has been charged with second-degree murder.

I hope he goes to trial so we can experience his formal defense, even if contrived.

--Brant

[caroljane]

He will got to trial. Considering the speed with which he was charged, booked, granted bail and released, it will be sooner rather than later. This of course, does not happen for citizen accused, who usually spend a week in the system before going home, or languishing in custody until trial.

This is no Zimmerman, no racial angle although the victim was Syrian. It is not even Cops vs Punks. It is not even Cops vs. Mentally Unbalanced. It will be straight-up, Cops Right Everytime vs We Don't Think So.

\

As mentioned before his lawyer is very good at getting cops off. |The last time a cop killed, the trial was delayed seven times when four key prosecution witnesses were present.The eighth time they were not and the cop was acquitted.

Brauti will do the trial delay thing to get the best judge "For the Crown Brown" and meantime work the media to influence potential jurors . But at least there will be a trial.

[caroljane]

The delightful Police Association routinely hire private investigators to dig up dirt on the voiceless victims of cop crimes, and even, it is said, of jury members.

[Brant Gaede]

The delightful Police Association routinely hire private investigators to dig up dirt on the voiceless victims of cop crimes, and even, it is said, of jury members.

You should move to Canada.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Yes, and never think I do not understand those who think the America they believe in has abandoned them. I can't agree that self-exile is patriotic, however. I will stay and bear witness at the very least.

[caroljane]

Forcillo apparently is an excellent shot. Eight of the nine bullets he fired hit Sammy Yatim. The officer "just wanted to get back to work" after the incident, and was surprised to be suspended (with pay).

This from the Toronto Sun today.

[caroljane]

At least he is off the streets until the court can decide if he is dangerous....oh wait, he isn't.

[caroljane]

Forcillo's lawyer is all round excellent. Yet his wins in the past have relied heavily on pre-trial manoeuvres and SOP . It will be interesting to see how he game-changes in this so scrutinized case where technicalities do not automatically tip the balance, with a little help from his friends.

[caroljane]

\In my uninformed opinion the whole case will hinge in the unreleased TTC video, showing Yatime;s actions with the knife in the seconds before Forcillo shot him. \Was he preparing to throw it and instantly kill an officer? Or to put it down as he had been yelled at to do? Or keep waving it in the chaos of his own mind?