The Gawd-Awful Video That Enraged The Gawd-Awful Islamists

[caroljane]

Carol,

I figure this is a version of the interview you mentioned:

http://www.pe.com/lo...lamic-movie.ece

Here's a quote I liked:

Klein, 62, said Bacile contacted him because of his activism on issues involving Islam.

“Sam found out about me through the grapevine and knew that I wouldn’t back down, that I wasn’t afraid to tell the truth on this stuff,” Klein said.

In other words, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula decided he'd found an easy mark.

Robert Campbell

PS. Hemet's not a high-profile locale. After the original Mothers of Invention broke up, the guy who did the "swell vocals," Ray Collins, took a job in Hemet selling Chryslers. This would have been in 1970 or 1971. I can't recall a reference to the place since then.

Or vice versa. It appears to be Klein who sought the alliance with Coptic Christians, telling them they were destined to overthrow secularism (he is apparently a theocracy fan) and joining with Nasralla in various projects. Once again I apologise for the lack of links , so I cannot substantiate, but I think you will grant that I have indeed read these things and am not just inventing them (though what I read could be inventions)

Hemet high or low is where Klein lives and works as an insurance agent.

[Robert Campbell]

Well, here's a post that actually identifies Joseph Nasralla Abdelmasih and makes some of the other allegations you've mentioned:

http://www.talk2acti...Incendiary_Film

It looks as though there's been considerable confusion about various of these persons and organizations, and not just on the part of other writers. At least updates and corrections have been provided on this site.

The site seems to regard socially conservative Republicans as the source of most of the evil and ill fortune in the universe.

Consequently, the fact that someone was involved in a protest against Cordoba House (aka The Ground Zero Mosque) does not have the persuasive power for me that it might have for a typical reader at the site. (There's a huge difference between the view that no mosque should be built next to the World Trade Towers site, because it would dishonor the dead and come across as an Islamic Imperialist gesture, and such views as have received ample attention on this forum, such as building a mosque there should be prohibited by law, or any mosque built there should be bombed to rubble.)

In general, I'd like to see more evidence of closer ties among some of the actors before I buy the argument being made in the post.

Robert Campbell

[caroljane]

I had not seen that post, TY. It reflects other stuff I have read and seems to be fairly scrupulous about sourcing.Of course we must always consider the source.

I do not know your views on Spencer and Geller. I think it is fair to say that they seem to regard Islam (and its enabler liberalism) as the source of all evil and danger in the modern world. They have endorsed and promoted Nasralla and Klein numerous times on their own websites. I think this qualifies as a demonstration of close ties.

[Robert Campbell]

We'll see whether it holds up, but one Sufyan ben Qumu is now being "credited" for a significant role in the Benghazi attack.

Ben Qumu was a member of Al Qa'eda, and an inmate of Gitmo. He was let out of Gitmo in 2007, with the understanding that the Qadhafi regime would keep him imprisoned in Libya. Which Qadhafi probably had no intention of doing, and in any event didn't.

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

I do not know your views on Spencer and Geller. I think it is fair to say that they seem to regard Islam (and its enabler liberalism) as the source of all evil and danger in the modern world. They have endorsed and promoted Nasralla and Klein numerous times on their own websites. I think this qualifies as a demonstration of close ties.

Carol,

I read a book by Spencer, The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran, which I thought was good in places and not so good in others.

I don't follow his website or Pam Geller's. Two or three visits to Ms. Geller's convinced me that she is a zealot. I don't see how enlisting the support of Jewish bigots or Christian bigots or Hindu bigots is going to be a terribly effective way of countering those who believe themselves entitled to kill on behalf of Islam.

I do think that Islamic Imperialism is a significant source of danger in today's world. The Islamic Imperialists are far less lethal at present than Hitler or Stalin or Mao, but it's not because they don't want to be, and it's not because they aren't trying. Their ideology is totalitarian and their aims are murderous. They simply don't have the battalions under their command. If the Iranian ruling council of Ayatollahs gets nukes, or the Pakistani regime is completely taken over by the Islamic Supremacists (instead of just being partly under their control), they'll move up substantially in the danger ratings.

I am aware that most Muslims are not Islamic Imperialists. But while there is much support for other tendencies, there is also support both in the text of the Qur'an and in Islamic tradition for militancy, conquest, and subjection of all who do not convert to their religion. And in too many parts of the world, there is insufficient pushback by the nonmilitants against Islamic Imperialists who will surely make life miserable for other Muslims should they gain power over them.

Do you really think that persons on the Left, in North America and in Europe, are not doing anything to "enable" Islamic Supremacists?

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Whodda thunk it?

France is now joining in. Mohammad naked with quips about the video.

I mean some of the French people.

The French government is cowering, just like the USA government has been cowering.

And it will learn a harsh lesson about cowering that a posture of strength could avoid.

The Islamist bullies will not attack in daylight. And they will not attack strong mean-looking people (unless it's 20 to 1 or better). They will wait until their French targets are distracted or feeling understood by the Muslim world, then blindside them.

Michael

[anthony]

Michael,

It has been infuriating for me to see how plain and clear leftists and progressives are making themselves, and nobody - outside here - notices, and calls them out. It's assumed as a given by a large majority in SA that this episode was incitement by nasty Americans upon innocent Muslims. Nobody questions the nasty premises they hold to conclude that.

Scratch an egalitarian, you find an elitist. The pandering and indulging of Islamists

is not new for me, I've been watching Europeans commit this on Israel and Palestine for a very long time. Under the pretence of loving the under-dog, Socialists detest everybody - but creating a victim they can patronize, makes them feel better about it.

And they need a fresh source of 'victims' constantly.

This is a view of humanity I (and, I know, you) find to be incomprehensible: that humans are an amorphous mass, one mind and body, who can't think for themselves. (An error made by some O'ists too, except we should know better than to accept such blatant collectivism.)

Anyway, Objectivists are accused by lefties as the people-haters? Pull the other one, mate.

I'll take this opportunity to apologize to Robert Campbell for my last post. In hindsight, I realize my attempt at dry sardonicism could have been taken as something more personal - re: his status as Objectivist, or not one. Not at all.It wasn't directed at him. (Sorry, Robert.)

[Selene]

Privacy Law

Actress in Anti-Muslim Film Says She Was Duped, Sues Producer and YouTube

An actress who appeared in the anti-Muslim film sparking protests across the globe has sued the producer for fraud and YouTube in a bid to get the video removed.

Cindy Lee Garcia says she has received “credible death threats” since starring in Innocence of Muslims, has been fired from her job, and is no longer able to visit her grandchildren, report CNN, the Los Angeles Times blog Movies Now and the Wall Street Journal blog Speakeasy.

Garcia says the ad seeking actors described Innocence as an adventure film about ancient Egyptians, but the script was rewritten and her dialogue altered after the fact with anti-Islamic voice-overs. Her suit against Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, also known as Sam Bacile, alleges fraud, slander and intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Garcia is represented by M. Cris Armenta in the suit, filed Wednesday in Los Angeles superior court. “This is not a First Amendment issue,” Armenta told the Los Angeles Times. “This is an invasion of privacy issue.”

[Robert Campbell]

In hindsight, I realize my attempt at dry sardonicism could have been taken as something more personal - re: his status as Objectivist, or not one. Not at all.It wasn't directed at him. (Sorry, Robert.)

Tony,

No offense taken.

I've become dissatisfied with the uncompleted Objectivist epistemology, and with the sad messes the ARIans have kept getting themselves into.

I haven't given up on challenging bogus dichotomies, or asking what the full logical implications of a position actually are.

Both of which are techniques that Ayn Rand taught me.

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

22 French embassies temporarily closed.

The "outrage industry" (as Salman Rushdie calls it) working 24/7.

I don't know whether the Muhammad cartoons in Charlie Hebdo can be seen online. (The Charlie Hebdo site has been crashing repeatedly, and I'm not sure that they display anything from their latest issue beyond the cover and the table of contents).

You can see the front cover and some background here:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/france-to-shut-embassies-on-fears-of-backlash-over-muhammad-cartoons-a-856737.html

Robert Campbell

[caroljane]

Do you really think that persons on the Left, in North America and in Europe, are not doing anything to "enable" Islamic Supremacists?

Robert Campbell

No.

[Robert Campbell]

Carol,

OK, from your point of view, what are some Leftists, maybe even some "liberals," doing to enable Islamic Imperialism?

Robert Campbell

[caroljane]

Allowing them to "hide" in the general Muslim population, and not killing or arresting them until they initiatei force? Or until it is proven that they are plotting it.

[9thdoctor]

OK, from your point of view, what are some Leftists, maybe even some "liberals," doing to enable Islamic Imperialism?

Wait a minute, I thought she said they weren't.

This was a hot topic with Christopher Hitchens after 9/11, I bet there's some good material out there with names and dates, and Hitch's flavor of righteous indignation to sauce it up.

[caroljane]

OK, from your point of view, what are some Leftists, maybe even some "liberals," doing to enable Islamic Imperialism?

Wait a minute, I thought she said they weren't.

This was a hot topic with Christopher Hitchens after 9/11, I bet there's some good material out there with names and dates, and Hitch's flavor of righteous indignation to sauce it up.

You got tangled up in the triple negatives. Or you expected me to say they weren't.

[Robert Campbell]

Allowing them to "hide" in the general Muslim population, and not killing or arresting them until they initiate force? Or until it is proven that they are plotting it.

Carol,

Really.

That's the extent of the enabling?

Beside, if it had a /sarc/ marker, I'd take you to mean that anything short of preemptively rounding up and imprisoning all Muslims constitutes enabling of the militants among them.

Are you familiar with the career of Nidal Malik Hasan? Would you say there was any "enabling" along the way—before he did anything his superiors might actually have considered arresting him for?

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Carol,

Did you check out any of the links that Tom Friedman provided?

For instance, from Dr. Isma'il 'Ali Muhmmad, a department head at Al-Azhar, the top Islamic university in Egypt:

http://www.memri.org...0/0/51/6086.htm

Wouldn't you say that Dr. Muhammad is a lot more influential in Egyptian society than Messrs. Nakoula and Klein are in American society?

And he repeats the blood libel.

Robert Campbell

PS. Dr. Muhammad quotes frequently from a book by a Coptic bigot named Zaki Shenouda. He might be in favor of killing Copts, but in the meantime...

[Selene]

Folks:

It fascinates me that many of us are fully willing to deny what we know.

It is particularly stunning to me to "feel" the leaning over backwards acceptance of psychotic religious fanaticism that directly results in the deaths of individual American citizens.

Have we "evolved" to the state of acceptance that we refuse to recognize the real world situations that will kill us?

Adam

just a passing muse

[caroljane]

Carol,

Did you check out any of the links that Tom Friedman provided?

For instance, from Dr. Isma'il 'Ali Muhmmad, a department head at Al-Azhar, the top Islamic university in Egypt:

http://www.memri.org...0/0/51/6086.htm

Wouldn't you say that Dr. Muhammad is a lot more influential in Egyptian society than Messrs. Nakoula and Klein are in American society?

And he repeats the blood libel.

Robert Campbell

PS. Dr. Muhammad quotes frequently from a book by a Coptic bigot named Zaki Shenouda. He might be in favor of killing Copts, but in the meantime...

I think we are thinking at cross purposes. I was not on the track of , what are liberals in the west doing or not doing, about bigots such as this in Egypt and other ME countries. I was thinking of what we do about extremists we find in our own midst amongst our own citizens or residents.

How far North American liberals influence or enable extremists in other countries, is a political question I simply do not have the knowledge to answer. I believe on evidence that North American ultra conservatives have influenced extremists to protest and riot . by distributing inflammatory propaganda there, I am not aware of similar actions due to liberal propaganda.

[Robert Campbell]

I think we are thinking at cross purposes. I was not on the track of, what are liberals in the west doing or not doing, about bigots such as this in Egypt and other ME countries. I was thinking of what we do about extremists we find in our own midst amongst our own citizens or residents.

How far North American liberals influence or enable extremists in other countries, is a political question I simply do not have the knowledge to answer. I believe on evidence that North American ultra conservatives have influenced extremists to protest and riot by distributing inflammatory propaganda there, I am not aware of similar actions due to liberal propaganda.

Let me see if I can paraphrase your remarks accurately:

— No one in the United States or Canada can have an effect, for good or ill, on Islamic Imperialists and other militant religious bigots, unless these militants and bigots are located in the United States or Canada

— And no one in the United States or Canada should be trying to have an effect, for good or ill, on Islamic Imperialists and other kinds of militant religious bigots, unless said imperialists and bigots are located in the United States or Canada

— With this small exception: Nakoula Basseley Nakoula or Steven Klein or Roy Spencer or Pam Geller definitely should not be trying to have any such effect, because they have attained the special power to reach out from the United States and make Islamic Imperialists go out and kill in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. Indeed, they have the unique power to take ordinary Muslims and turn them into Islamic Imperialists at the touch of a button or the click of a mouse: one upload to YouTube, and, presto, instant conflagration

— No one in the United States or Canada should ever presume to say how Muslims in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, ought to conduct themselves; only other Egyptians, Libyans, Pakistanis, Indonesians must ever be concerned with any Islamic militants or bigots in their midst

— Actions taken by Islamic militants and bigots in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc., are never of real concern to persons in North America, even when these militants and bigots set kill North Americans, burn the buildings they are occupying, run Islamic Imperialist flags up over foreign embassies, and so on

— Exception: when such actions were puppetmastered by American and Canadian Jewish, Christian, or Hindu bigots wielding their extraordinary powers, swift action is imperative—by North Americans—to put an immediate stop to those non-Muslim bigots and their operations

— Further exception: any other North Americans who make calls for action against Islamic Imperialists and Supremacists in any other country instantly fall into the same category as Messrs. Nakoula, Klein, and Spencer, or Ms. Geller

Question: Is there any way "liberals," "progressives," or hard Leftists in North America could be lending encouragement to violent acts by Islamic Imperialists in other countries—by means other than distributing inflammatory propaganda among them with the stated purpose of getting them to go out and kill? Or is any such thing impossible on the face of it?

Robert Campbell

PS. Is any criticism, by any North American, of the Qur'an, of the Prophet Muhammad, or of any Islamic belief or practice ipso facto inflammatory?

[anthony]

Incitement, provocationn, instigation - liberal media have been pretzeling themselves

to explain how 8 South Africans (of an air charter company) were killed yesterday

in Kabul - by a female suicide bomber. I don't know why they bother: the motivation

has already been supplied by the terror gang's Press release. It was...

oh - you guessed.

[caroljane]

I think we are thinking at cross purposes. I was not on the track of, what are liberals in the west doing or not doing, about bigots such as this in Egypt and other ME countries. I was thinking of what we do about extremists we find in our own midst amongst our own citizens or residents.

How far North American liberals influence or enable extremists in other countries, is a political question I simply do not have the knowledge to answer. I believe on evidence that North American ultra conservatives have influenced extremists to protest and riot by distributing inflammatory propaganda there, I am not aware of similar actions due to liberal propaganda.

Let me see if I can paraphrase your remarks accurately:

— No one in the United States or Canada can have an effect, for good or ill, on Islamic Imperialists and other militant religious bigots, unless these militants and bigots are located in the United States or Canada

— And no one in the United States or Canada should be trying to have an effect, for good or ill, on Islamic Imperialists and other kinds of militant religious bigots, unless said imperialists and bigots are located in the United States or Canada

— With this small exception: Nakoula Basseley Nakoula or Steven Klein or Roy Spencer or Pam Geller definitely should not be trying to have any such effect, because they have attained the special power to reach out from the United States and make Islamic Imperialists go out and kill in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. Indeed, they have the unique power to take ordinary Muslims and turn them into Islamic Imperialists at the touch of a button or the click of a mouse: one upload to YouTube, and, presto, instant conflagration

— No one in the United States or Canada should ever presume to say how Muslims in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, ought to conduct themselves; only other Egyptians, Libyans, Pakistanis, Indonesians must ever be concerned with any Islamic militants or bigots in their midst

— Actions taken by Islamic militants and bigots in Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc., are never of real concern to persons in North America, even when these militants and bigots set kill North Americans, burn the buildings they are occupying, run Islamic Imperialist flags up over foreign embassies, and so on

— Exception: when such actions were puppetmastered by American and Canadian Jewish, Christian, or Hindu bigots wielding their extraordinary powers, swift action is imperative—by North Americans—to put an immediate stop to those non-Muslim bigots and their operations

— Further exception: any other North Americans who make calls for actions against Islamic Imperialists and Supremacists in any other country instantly fall into the same category as Messrs. Nakoula, Klein, and Spencer, or Ms. Geller

Question: Is there any way "liberals," "progressives," or hard Leftists in North America could be lending encouragement to violent acts by Islamic Imperialists in other countries—by means other than distributing inflammatory propaganda among them with the stated purpose of getting them to go out and kill? Or is any such thing impossible on the face of it?

Robert Campbell

PS. Is any criticism, by any North American, of the Qur'an, of the Prophet Muhammad, or of any Islamic belief or practice ipso facto inflammatory?

Robert,

You lost me somewhere between "can" and "should".

I will try to relocate myself in the somewhere and answer rationally. It might take awhile

[Robert Campbell]

I hope this report isn't true.

But I won't be surprised if the Obama administration ends up releasing Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/eyes_blind_sheik_release_0MFMrnamOFxtIJKJLpTQNL

Of course, it it does happen, it won't constitute appeasement.

Right?

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Speaking of Pamela Geller, it's her turn:

ADS CALLING FOR THE DEFEAT OF ‘SAVAGE’ JIHAD GOING UP IN NYC SUBWAYS AFTER BLOGGER WINS LEGAL BATTLE

by Jason Howerton

September 20, 2012

The Blaze

From the article:

NEW YORK (AP) — A provocative ad that equates Muslim radicals with savages is set to go up in the city’s subway system as violent protests over an anti-Islamic film ridiculing the Prophet Muhammad sweep over much of the Muslim world.

A conservative blogger who once headed a campaign against an Islamic center near the Sept. 11 terror attack site won a court order to post the ad in 10 subway stations next Monday. The ad reads, “In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat Jihad.”

. . .

Geller, executive director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative and publisher of a blog called Atlas Shrugs, called an order by a federal judge in New York allowing the ads “a victory for the First Amendment” and said she wasn’t concerned that her ad could spark protests like the ones against the depiction of Muslims in the video “Innocence of Muslims.” Violence linked to the movie has left at least 30 people in seven countries dead, including the American ambassador to Libya.

“If it‘s not a film it’s a cartoon, if it‘s not a cartoon it’s a teddy bear,” she said. “What are you going to do? Are you going to reward Islamic extremism? I will not sacrifice my freedom so as not to offend savages.”

I don't like what she is doing, but I stand with her.

We have to say no to bullies.

Michael

[anthony]

Yeah, agreed. But what is the (direct) relevance of Israel in this?

"Support Israel."??!

Gratuitous.

Israel has its own problems.