The Perfect Lilian Rearden, Dead at 79

[kiaer.ts]

Just kidding, imagine how Cooper would have looked like then.

Man sagt entweder <<how he would have looked>> oder <<what he would have looked like>>>, aber nicht beide <<how>> und <<like>> zusammen.

[caroljane]

I don't particularly care for - no - I can't stand Branagh. But his Hamlet was outstanding. First rate.

I am also a huge fan of:

Richard III w/ Ian McKellen

Richard II w/ Fiona Shaw (I have a copy, and would upload it to YouTube if I knew how.)

King Lear w/ Laurence Olivier

King Lear w/ James Earl Jones

MacBeth Roman Polanski

Titus w/ Anthony Hopkins

I vacillate between King Lear and Richard II as my favorite play.

Your actor choices are impeccable, what do you have against Branagh?

Lear has a greatness that is indescribable, and for me it is confined, not amplified, by being staged or filmed. I have never seen a performance of it that had the effect on me, of reading it.

[Xray]

Just kidding, imagine how Cooper would have looked like then.

Man sagt entweder <<how he would have looked>> oder <<what he would have looked like>>>, aber nicht beide <<how>> und <<like>> zusammen.

Wo steht das genau, dass "man" es nicht so sagen kann?

"How does Billy's new girlfriend look like?" would be incorrect English then?

I googled a bit, and in these English text sources, "how" und "like" are used together too:

Lisi Martin said, it`s okay with her and now I can present you a picture of her - how she looks like

today - 18 years later.

www.lisimartin.com/master.php?kat=2

Do you know the feeling: I want to meet that person again, I wish I had asked his/her e-mail address... Well, here you can leave a message for that person and specify where you met and how he/she looks like.

www.weatherwindhoek.com/37/en/Windh...urlaub_reise

Qualitative module: ethnographic in-home explorations covering life worlds, moral concepts, motivations for actions and consumer needs, e.g. segment "power woman": How does she look like, what kind of car does she drive and how does she talk about it?

www.g-i-m.com/index/modul/portal/ke..._numeric_en/

Edited March 27, 2011 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

Just kidding, imagine how Cooper would have looked like then.

Man sagt entweder <<how he would have looked>> oder <<what he would have looked like>>>, aber nicht beide <<how>> und <<like>> zusammen.

Wo steht das genau, dass "man" es nicht so sagen kann?

"How does Billy's new girlfriend look like?" would be incorrect English then?

I googled a bit, and in these English text sources, "how" und "like" are used together too:

Lisi Martin said, it`s okay with her and now I can present you a picture of her - how she looks like

today - 18 years later.

www.lisimartin.com/master.php?kat=2

Do you know the feeling: I want to meet that person again, I wish I had asked his/her e-mail address... Well, here you can leave a message for that person and specify where you met and how he/she looks like.

www.weatherwindhoek.com/37/en/Windh...urlaub_reise

Qualitative module: ethnographic in-home explorations covering life worlds, moral concepts, motivations for actions and consumer needs, e.g. segment "power woman": How does she look like, what kind of car does she drive and how does she talk about it?

www.g-i-m.com/index/modul/portal/ke..._numeric_en/

Let me write in English for the benefit of the others.

I had a problem learning Spanish because people would not correct my mistakes when they understood my meaning. So I like to point out such minor errors when I see them.

After reading Xray write above "imagine how Cooper would have looked like then." I told her that one would either say "what he would have looked like" or "how he would have looked" but not both "how" and "like" in the same sentence. She asked me where exactly it is written that one doesn't do such a thing.

Where one might find an explicit rule against it, I don't know. It is the sort of knowledge that a native speaker has implicitly - and I am quite sure the writers of those internet sentences above would have accepted the correction to delete the like or change the how to what. (Keep in mind also that in German, "wie" means both how and like. ""Wie sieht sie aus?" means how does she look - literally, "How sees she out?" - while "Sie sieht wie ein Pferd aus" would mean she looks like a horse - literally, "She sees how a horse out.") But "how" already means "like what" in the Cooper sentence, so adding "like" is pleonastic.

[Selene]

Pleonasm - damn Ted new one to me

Pleonasm [from Greek, pleon: more, too much] is the use of more words or word-parts than is necessary for clear expression: examples are black darkness, burning fire, or redundant pleonasm. Such redundancy is, by traditional rhetorical criteria, a manifestation of tautology.

Thanks.

Adam

onward learning with OL

[kiaer.ts]

Pleonasm - damn Ted new one to me

Pleonasm [from Greek, pleon: more, too much] is the use of more words or word-parts than is necessary for clear expression: examples are black darkness, burning fire, or redundant pleonasm. Such redundancy is, by traditional rhetorical criteria, a manifestation of tautology.

Thanks.

Adam

onward learning with OL

Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either "what he looks like" (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or "how he looks" (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard "how he looks like"?

[Selene]

Pleonasm - damn Ted new one to me

Pleonasm [from Greek, pleon: more, too much] is the use of more words or word-parts than is necessary for clear expression: examples are black darkness, burning fire, or redundant pleonasm. Such redundancy is, by traditional rhetorical criteria, a manifestation of tautology.

Thanks.

Adam

onward learning with OL

Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either "what he looks like" (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or "how he looks" (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard "how he looks like"?

I must have missed something here Ted. Can you explain the above more clearly?

[kiaer.ts]

Pleonasm - damn Ted new one to me

Pleonasm [from Greek, pleon: more, too much] is the use of more words or word-parts than is necessary for clear expression: examples are black darkness, burning fire, or redundant pleonasm. Such redundancy is, by traditional rhetorical criteria, a manifestation of tautology.

Thanks.

Adam

onward learning with OL

Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either "what he looks like" (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or "how he looks" (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard "how he looks like"?

I must have missed something here Ted. Can you explain the above more clearly?

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

[Selene]

Pleonasm - damn Ted new one to me

Pleonasm [from Greek, pleon: more, too much] is the use of more words or word-parts than is necessary for clear expression: examples are black darkness, burning fire, or redundant pleonasm. Such redundancy is, by traditional rhetorical criteria, a manifestation of tautology.

Thanks.

Adam

onward learning with OL

Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either "what he looks like" (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or "how he looks" (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard "how he looks like"?

I must have missed something here Ted. Can you explain the above more clearly?

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

It looks correct to me. Apparently, you are saying that I used, or use, a different construction when referring to the boy emperor?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English.

Ellen

[Selene]

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English.

Ellen

Ellen:

I understand that point. I am confused about Ted's statement:

"Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either 'what he looks like' (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or 'how he looks' (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard 'how he looks like'?"

Is the red statement because I don't talk good English? Sorry cheap joke.

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English.

Ellen

Ellen:

I understand that point. I am confused about Ted's statement:

"Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either 'what he looks like' (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or 'how he looks' (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard 'how he looks like'?"

Is the red statement because I don't talk good English? Sorry cheap joke.

Adam

I don't know how to help you here, Adam, I explained myself three times. I was eliciting your opinion as a native speaker of English of Xray's statement. It had nothing to do with anything you said yourself. For most English speakers, speech is like riding a bicycle, something they can do, but not explain.

[Selene]

Xray wrote: " imagine how Cooper would have looked like..."

I said that an English speaker would either say " imagine how Cooper would have looked (full stop)" or imagine what Cooper would have looked like" but that "imagine how Cooper would have looked like" was substandard. Do you not agree?

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English.

Ellen

Ellen:

I understand that point. I am confused about Ted's statement:

"Adam, can you not give your opinion for Xray as a native English speaker? Is not either 'what he looks like' (a fool, a presidential candidate, a god) or 'how he looks' (foolish, presidential, divine) better than the substandard 'how he looks like'?"

Is the red statement because I don't talk good English? Sorry cheap joke.

Adam

I don't know how to help you here, Adam, I explained myself three times. I was eliciting your opinion as a native speaker of English of Xray's statement. It had nothing to do with anything you said yourself. For most English speakers, speech is like riding a bicycle, something they can do, but not explain.

Ahh, now that cleared it up completely. Yes, I agree with your explanation that you gave to Miss Xray. Frankly, I defer to several folks here on grammar, you being one of them.

"It was the can you not" phrasing which led me to believe you were being declarative that I should not give my opinion as a native English speaker.

lol

We do agree as to what you explained to Ms. Xray.

Adam

[Xray]

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English.

But what if "like" is used in a mere pleonastic function?

But "how" already means "like what" in the Cooper sentence, so adding "like" is pleonastic.

A pleonasm is a redundant element of language which can be used e. g. for emphasis, like "objective fact" (facts are always objective), but the prase "It is an objecive fact that ..." would still be grammatically correct.

Ted/Ellen/Adam,

I'm interested in whether the sentence "How does his new girlfriend look like?" is grammatically wrong. For if "like" is merely used in a pleonastic sense here, it would not necessarily make it wrong.(?)

See also the following sentences which I quoted in a prior post: [here's another one: I always waver whether I'm to use "prior" or "previous" for those posts]:

Lisi Martin said, it`s okay with her and now I can present you a picture of her - how she looks like

today - 18 years later.

www.lisimartin.com/master.php?kat=2

Do you know the feeling: I want to meet that person again, I wish I had asked his/her e-mail address... Well, here you can leave a message for that person and specify where you met and how he/she looks like.

www.weatherwindhoek.com/37/en/Windh...urlaub_reise

Qualitative module: ethnographic in-home explorations covering life worlds, moral concepts, motivations for actions and consumer needs, e.g. segment "power woman": How does she look like, what kind of car does she drive and how does she talk about it?

www.g-i-m.com/index/modul/portal/ke..._numeric_en/

Or could inserting the "like" in a sentence with "how" more be a pheomenon of spoken English?

(Pleonasms are used quite often in spoken language).

A nice one is the double negative in spoken Bavarian, example:

"I hob' koa Göid ned" ('I habe kein Geld nicht' - 'I have no money not')

Now this is actually grammatically incorrect because standard German grammar does not have the double negative).

Edited March 28, 2011 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

Or could inserting the "like" in a sentence with "how" more be a pheomenon of spoken English?

(Pleonasms are used quite often in spoken language).

A nice one is the double negative in spoken Bavarian, example:

"I hob' koa Göid ned" ('I habe kein Geld nicht' - 'I have no money not')

Now this is actually grammatically incorrect because standard German grammar does not have the double negative).

It may be comprehensible, but it is definitely incorrect. Nor is not common in spoken speech, or in any certain dialect. You would definitely not find it in any properly edited work except to reflect substandard speech.

The word how in the sentence "I wonder how she looks" means like what and not in what manner. (Etymologically, the word how (OE hwo) descends from an oblique case form of the word what (OE hwat).) We are not discussing whether she sees clearly or not, but what she looks like. Since how already means "like what", to ask "how she looks like" is to ask "what she looks like like."

Edited March 28, 2011 by Ted Keer

[Xray]

Just to explain the grammatical issue...

In the English construction "Cooper looks like what," "like" is a preposition followed by "what" as a non-specific noun.

In "how Cooper looks," "how" is a conjunction followed by a clause.

Rearranging "how Cooper would have looked like" into standard order, it would read, "Cooper would have looked like how Cooper would have looked" -- a preposition followed by a conjunction followed by a clause.

Not kosher English

.

It may be comprehensible, but it is definitely incorrect. Nor is not common in spoken speech, or in any certain dialect. You would definitely not find it in any properly edited work except to reflect substandard speech.

Ellen and Ted,

Thank you for the info and explanations.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Xray