Selene

You will find bigotry in every clan, kith, kin, tribe, family and ethnic group. It is a common human failing. Ethnic or familial solidarity even with its hostile manifestations may be a vestigial modality for protecting the clan. Us against the Them. In a hostile and less civilized world this might have conduced to survival. In a rather broad based culture or society it is in impediment. I had my epiphany in connection with a Chabad study group. The Rabbi taught that Jews have an additional soul which non-Jews do not possess. I got steamed. I quoted (in Hebrew) from the sixth book of the Mishna Torah that the Righteous of ALL the nations shall have a portion in the world to come. ALL the nations, not just Jews. I could not abide such racist tripe coming from the mouth of one of my people. I would rather spend my time with a righteous gentile than with a Jewish bigot. I turns out I have a daughter in law and a son in law who are first class non Jewish folks. Their families are also the salt of the earth. Quality is transmitted from parent to child very often. My Jewish daughter (of the flesh) has decided to raise her two kids, my grandchildren as b'nai Noah, righteous people. I concur and approve. I am accidentally Jewish, but consciously righteous. That is my choice. The righteous of ALL the Nations shall have a portion in the World to Come. Now if we can only convinced the fervent and very ultra Muslims the truth of this, the world would be a happier place. You will notice the racism and bigotry that was manifested by Muslims in the recent riots in France and Australia, places they do not even own. Of course the liberals and the goo goo-s made excuses (so what else is new?). Maybe if the Muslims had the shit beaten out of them for two thousand years or more like the Jews, they too will become humble and lovable. That is how tough meat is tenderized. Beat it repeatedly by a hammer with spikes. Eventually it will become tender and tasty. God works in mysterious, but effective, ways whether or not He exists. Ba'al Chatzaf "I am accidentally Jewish, but consciously righteous. That is my choice. The righteous of ALL the Nations shall have a portion in the World to Come." Agreed. It is the "consciously righteous" that involves choice. It is self-evident that all human "groups', "teams" "philosophical movements" [like Objectivism] develope a "group identity", or in the military or a football team develope a "group integrity"[see our stategic daylight bombing campaign on Germany WWII or watch Twelve O'Clock High with Peck where group integrity demanded that the individual sublimate his, and now today her, emotions, e.g. fear to the total survivability of the group. However, you still have to consciously place a delay in your hard wiring and think. For example when I was in the 7th grade in a "special progress class", how politically incorrect would that be today, my Jewish math teacher was walking down the rows and she stoped at my desk and said, "Ahh Adam, you're in the accellerated math class, so your mother must be Jewish." Luckily for her health, I had already read Atlas, and I replied coldly and calmly, Mrs. _____, I believe that my father is going to make an appointment to speak with you in your office. He did, she walked on egg shells for the rest of the interminable year of her horrendous inability to teach math in a conceptual manner. Personally, being Italian, there was a thread in our family's "mythology" of oral history that said, "remember the Irish threw rocks at your grandmother!" My response was and your point is that I am now supposed to go out and throw rocks at Mike's grandmother down the block for something that may have happened 50 years ago that he and she have no knowledge of? I would then say, Aunt ______ that seems pretty irrattional to me so I am not going to do that. I am merely arguing, in fact pleading, for that consciously righteous stance from all of us.

The Hand that Rocks the Cradle and feeds the pablum belongs to the person who transmits the culture. Babies adopted into Jewish homes (as opposed to being born into Jewish homes) generally turn out as Jewish as babies born into Jewish homes. The home life and upbringing is what implants the culture, not gestating in the womb. Ba'al Chatzaf Was Rand a Jew??? Uh... Maybe??... Sort of... by birth.... but..... If the answer is not a quick 'NO', then that illustrates quite clearly how we connect (rightly or wrongly) Jewishness with genes - at least partially and that's all that matters. Bob EXCELLENT Bob - precisely.

No. It was a cheap shot. Mea Culpa! Sometimes I just cannot help myself. When they announced Habemus Pappam with Benny 16, I responded with Seig Heil! I guess the fact that Benny 16 was a Hitler Youth sticks in my craw. I am not generally anti-Catholic even though I had the shit beaten out of me by Catholic bullies (when I was a kid). You see, I personally killed Christ, or so they said. Even so, I should not keep holding a grudge. Shame on me double. I should have more self control. Ba'al Chatzaf "Should an individual keep holding a grudge?" Now that is an interesting question. The first N. Branden book I read was "Breaking Free". If holding a grudge, e.g., "Never forgive, never forget" makes you a "better" individual it makes good sense to me. However, if holding a grudge forever and a day impedes your ability to develope into the best "Ba'al", then it would seem to be self-destructive. In terms of how people "treat" you based on where they categorize you by race, religion, ethnicity or the size of your nose, my personal experience may be of value. As a teenager "dating" Jewish girls was always amusing to me because I would have to change my last name into Adam Kaplan just to get into the parent's Brooklyn apartment of the girl to be able to get her out for a date to begin the eternal campaign to get into other aspects of her total personality - like her pants. I was the same entitity, but if the observer thought that I was Jewish I was treated differently. Many times not to well by bigots. Conversely, too many Jewish people that knew me as "Jewish" would say, in confidence, some of the most hateful predjudices that I have ever heard. Why not, I was a lansman. I just flat refuse to pre-judge another individual, never have, never will.

I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise. A heartfelt congratulations to an amazing culture, the Jews. May all men learn from them the reasons they are so well represented among the top. Michael "I normally do not like ethnic stories, but when praise is due for produced achievement, I think one should praise." Gotta seriously disagree with that. The problem is that connecting race and success is just as foolish as connecting the same with failure. It's expressing the same 'thought disease' as basic red-neck racism only with a sugar coating of positive language. I think it's a really stupid and dangerous thing to do in this day and age - meaning we should know better. Bob If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them. --Brant "If we don't praise the Jews the bigots get an open field to attack them." < Brant I do not think that that statement is morally defendable.

This in particular is for the writers among us. I posted it because on first thought this was precisely the opposite of Ayn Rand's ideal in writing. She did not "adjust [her] style to suit the audience, however arbitrary its expectations." But she also sought "to reach the men of the intellect, wherever such may still be found." According to Prof. Lynch, Rand's first job was to "figure out what [her] audience expects." Surely it is a good strategy, to figure out what "the men of the intellect" expect? The floor is open. "But she also sought 'to reach the men of the intellect, wherever such may still be found'". << Would this not then be her audience. "Rhetoric", as Aristotle advanced the definition was "developing all the available means of persuasion in the given case." The "big" behavioral attack on Aristotle's Rhetoric was that it did not account for the "behavioral bean counters". Hmmm, well it sure did. Part of his assumptive system was that if there was good and evil. If man was rational by nature [thank you Ayn for cementing that for me] and if you gave equal powers and tools, arte and techne to both "sides", then you would achieve goodness. In essence, Aristotle inherently, in my opinion, seeks to achieve the "common good". Greeks were the audience. Greeks had a "sense" of common good. The difference is that they acted on it. Today we have the same sense of a "common good" we just permit ourselves to be shaken from what we know to be "basic" "goods". In law, it is the difference between "malum in se"[Grindstaff v. State, 214 Tenn 58, 377 S.W.2d 921, 926] and "malum prohibitum" [local "blue" laws, e.g., a bar cannot be open within 500' of a house of worship] < geez, can you imagine being dumb enough to vote for that!

Ahh. Removing foot from my rhetorical mouth. Kitten = the C-Span ARI link/my agreement with her great pickup and our discussions. Hmmm. Now I understand. Well then extend my apology to you to her. Well you should meet my lady. Midwife in the "Off The Map" [<Great little movie] American mennonite community. Lived in Bolivia for 5 years as a missionary mid-wife/milk farm/no electricity and as expert on herboligy as anyone I've ever met. Hates politics. We minimalist backpack in the Shenandoah Mountains. Geez, I am getting too old for this revolutionary "stuff". Nah.

Let's see you have no knowledge of the facts of the case. You have heard not one word of sworn testimony. You have perused not one single document. Yet, you are able to make a conclusion. May I know which mystical church you preach at? I'm sorry, you are the Count Korzybski lady. Let me restate the last message in a format you can assimilate: If, as he brilliantly stated, "The 'map' is not the 'territory'", how did you "read" an "electronic" semantic map "framed" by a mass media outlet, mix it with some mystical perception that you gleaned from a "fashion" "show" and rationally conclude that she is a "bitch"? Whelp me out here?

I encourage people to yell at me. My parents were exceptional people. If they shook your hand to seal a contract, you could take that handshake to your local bank and cash it. When I was first priviledged to see the Fountainhead, it was after I read Atlas Shrugged. I just recently taped it [geez, I just date stamped myself] and watched it again. I am even more amazed at what a great cinematic work it is. I was stunned, in this current "political cycle", and truely appreciative of the power of the Elsworth Toughy speech to Peter Keating. It is dead nuts on! Simple, not simplistic, frightening in the reality that there actually are "humans" that actually want to be in that position towards another human being. It is beyond my capacity to understand what boiling hatred of existence and themselves that these wretches have to endure living with themselves "24/7/365". One of my greatestest days as a human was understanding the twin towers of Rand's philosophy that chnaged me[90% of the rest just gave me a structure to what I already knew to be true]: a) the sanction of the victim; and b) the emotional and psychological three card monte game that these folks have to buy into to exist. I love argument. To me, it is mental gymnastics. However, I do understand why folks shy away from be open and direct. Actions have consequences. I understand.

Michael, accept my apology. Firstly, I was attempting to be my usual satirical self which sometimes can offend that is why I stated that I was new to this forum. Additionally, I am a divorce and family mediator by profession and I share your particular situation concerning the ability of the State to interfere with and actually promulgate the destruction of family and the natural authority of a parent and their child. Furthermore, having lived in NYCity for 95 % of my life, the whole "Jewish thing" is ingrained in our skins. You are absolutely correct concerning the underlying patterns of prejudice that exist amonst too many people. My parents raised me to never judge a person by anything but their individual behavior, character and actions. I know no other way therefore, I tend to criticize any pre-judging of any individual that appeared based on a "class" assumption. I should follow my own critics hypocratic oath which begins with "Critic, do no harm!" Please accept my apology.

The idea of Spartans fighting for Freedom is almost an oxymoron. Sparta was one of the most repressed societies that ever existed and it lived on the slave labor of the Helots. No doubt the Spartan fought for Independence (from Persian domination) as did the Athenians. But Freedom and Liberty? Not a chance. Even Athens which was far freer than Sparta was not a democracy. Only one in six adult males living in the Athenian City-State had any standing in its governance. Five sixths of the population were either resident aliens whose presence was tolerated and found useful or -slaves-. Slavery was alive and well in Athens in those days. Aristotle even defended slavery. Don't get me wrong. I -loved- the movie. It was exciting, it was bad-ass, it got my juices flowing. Personally, I admire the way of the warrior, the man who puts his blood and vital organs between his family and community on the one hand, and the outsider who would come to conquer or destroy them. All hail the Warrior! The stand of the 300 is Sparta's lasting contribution to human culture along with its military memes. Spartan military modalities are -the- model for military organization in every subsequent society, be it fee or be it tyrannical. For example; the Romans were organized in the manner of the Spartan Hoplites. Here is Simonides verse on the Spartan stand in memory of Spartan bravery: Ώ ξειν', ἀγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα, τοις κοίνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι Oh Stranger passing by, go tell the Spartans.... Graven on the statue of Leonidas at Thermopolea was the Spartan response to the Persian demand that they Spartans lay down their weapons. "Μολών λαβέ" ("Come and take them!"). Damn! That gives me goose bumps. Ba'al Chatzaf Yep. Much more eloquent than "Nuts!" by the Commander of Bastogne. It was an excellent movie visually. I only wish the director had included the famous Spartan Hounds that went into battle with the warriors. As old Bill said: "My hounds are bred out of the Spartan kind, So flewed, so sanded: and their heads are hung With ears that sweep away the morning dew; Crook-kneed, and dew-lapped like Thessalian bulls, Slow in pursuit, but matched in mouth like bells, Each unto each. A cry more tunable Was never hollaed to, nor cheered with horn, In Crete, in Sparta, nor in Thessaly: Judge when you hear. William Shakespeare Midsummer Night’s Dream. Act IV, Scene I In reality their howls struck horror and a primal fear into the opponent. Imagine fighting the Romans a la Gladiator [the movie about that charming Statis Roman Emporer], but with Spartan Hounds with an attitude.

Geez! Now it gets bilingual! Excellent point though, economics is value-free. Ahh, Ludwig how nice to hear the sweet ring of German floating over the the rolling hills of Buchenwald.

I understand. That attitude makes sense. Although I personally prefer to use more qualifiers, I can understand why in this context you considered them unnecessary. I am knew to these forums. Therefore I may be missing something in this tread. We are having this discussion to establish that there are productive and non-productive Jews, Italians, Ethiopians....? I a lot confused here. Or is this the cleverly secret satire area?

Well lets be honest, we can plug Objectivism into any mythology. For example, at the Surprise Supper, our savior Ayn Rand, Daughter of Aristotle, feasted with her disciples, and was eventually betrayed by Nathaniel Judas Branden, leading to The Passion of Ayn Rand, in which she was shown to be human. Personally I would like to avoid becoming a tradition-bound sect. However the idea of multiple 'subsects' raised earlier does make me laugh. Who knows, I may start an Objectivist Goth community one day ("Sex, Blood and Capitalism!"). But otherwise, POTENTIAL OBJECTIVIST HOLIDAYS: Rand's Birthday (Readings of Atlas, gift giving, etc) Branden Wedding Day ("Feast of the Betrayers" for ARIans, "Feast of the Neglected Saints" for Open-Systemers) Independence Day (obvious reasons) SAINTS DAYS FOR: Locke, Aristotle, Aquinas, Mises (and I would say Abelard, Spinoza (for his treatment of egoism), Hayek, J. S. Mill, Schumpter, David Kelley or Leonard Peikoff (depending on affiliation), and in general a "hooray for the enlightenment project" day all deserve some recognition). Christmas (protest outside Churches) Hooray for The Joys of Sexual Pleasure Day (celebrating this should be self-explanatory) Tax Day (protest outside the IRS HQ) Russian Revolution (wear nothing but black on this day) The Beginning of the End Day (anniversary of publication of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason) The Beginning of the New Beginning Day (anniversary of the publication of Atlas) Easter Sunday (show little kiddies the really nasty bits of The Passion of the Christ to put them off Jesus forever) September 11 (protest outside your local Mosque) Now, that is a hilarious post. Bravo! Alfonso "Hooray for The Joys of Sexual Pleasure Day (celebrating this should be self-explanatory)." Now this is the day we combine the virgin sacrifice with intricate knot tying demo's. Then we lease the DVD to the 757 company on an annual basis, minimum 10 year lease and have the goats for the post orgy feast!

It would have been nice to shake the Branden's hands again. I had a good deal of respect for them. I still recommend Breaking Free to numerous young people and a few older folks who I think may still not comprehend how "stuck" they are in old tracks and tapes that control their lives negatively.

I was already going to go to the next one after coming across your website two weeks ago. However, I will tell you with certainty that I have some time tested ideas for "workshops", forums etc. I would really like to see a well crafted debate proposition between one of the directors of Atlas and the gentleman who is running ARI, Dr. Yaron Brook. Furthermore, since I was a debate judge, I would be glad to be one of the three judges. It would be a debate, not the anti-intellectual press conferences that the "mainstream media" covers. I'm sure it is completely apparent to any semi-conscious observer of the "main stream media" that it now a tiny electronic backwater in the electronic information river. I would also like to work with anyone else to craft a "workshop" on local political campaigns. A utilitarian workshop to elect one member to the local school board of every member of nationwide. Also, to look at local town counsels, community planning boards. In essence utilize some of the brilliant organizing concepts of the left to aid and accelerate their collapse. Additionally, the first go round election will be building the election district force that will only build month by month. I thought your panels were excellent. The questions were well thought out. The audience was amply sprinkled with bright eyed, intense young people. It was a highly marketable image. Finally, for many of us who labored in the wilderness for the last 50 years, it has been 49 for me. I read Atlas in 1958 at the age of 12. It confirmed every first principle that I believed in and it gave me a cohesive framework to develope and hone my mind that lasts to this day. It is the best and most important book that I have ever read. Whenever I had to decide between my basic values and what appeared to be the easier path or the more financially rewarding path I was able to reflect with seriousness and make a rational conclusion. Her ideas/memes lead to paths much less traveled, but worth every step.

I meant no criticism. It was so refreshing to hear three and one half hours of rational conversation that actually dealt with central issues to each of us as individuals. I recently signed on to this forum and it has been a delight. Moreover, at least the Atlas Society is addressing the major frustration that I have had for thirty odd years with the "Keepers of the Flame" and their self destructive behavior with the Libertarian Party and any political/electoral action. I remember how strongly Ayn came out for Goldwater. I was an one of the original organizers of the New York State campaign for Barry. I lived in Queens County in New York City. I was 17, attending NBI and in my second year at Queens College. The electoral debacle of 1964, especially in local State Assembly, Senate, Congressional and Counselmanic races was devastating. There was no longer any effective non-Democratic Party in my county. I have never understood the "we are not getting our hands dirty" attitude of the Objectivist "faithful" that took over. Even the God's of Greek Mythology would come down from Olympus occassionally. However, it appears that you guys are finally on the right track. This is an immense opportunity to geometrically increase the spread of our ideas. I was glad to hear that the gentleman from ARI attended the meetings with libertarians and "the downfallen angels"! Now is the time. We will never be in a better position to explosively assert our ideas. Great job on the conference. I will be attending next year.

Selene, I once walked into a trap with this one and had to eat my words. The sad truth is that James Vicary was lying about his results of Coke and popcorn and could not repeat them. See the Snopes article here: Subliminal Advertising. However, I did see a rather disturbing video on You Tube (I gleaned this from an unfriendly Objectivist discussion site):Derren Brown - Subliminal Advertising. The idea of hidden persuaders makes sense, but I don't know fully what to make of this field yet. My gut feeling is that hidden persuaders account for a small slice of total behavior. Michael I was not aware of that study. I will take a look at it. However, I do agree with your last sentence that it does comprise a "small slice of total behavior". Whenever I have worked as an outside political consultant, a final choice or presentation of a slogan/ad/video was "instinctive" was effected by my "gut feeling" which was essentially based on the immense amount of numbers and information that I had imbedded in my brain's hard drive as I did my due diligence in analyzing the particlar political event that we were hired to run. Developing all the available means of persuasion in the given case is called Rhetoric, some old timer named Aristotle taught his students about it.

Exactly, I was not happy to see the link either.

Not Stazi but Stasi (STAatsSIcherheit=state security) It is a neutral term, just like "idea". Ahh, thanks. Related to the enthymeme used by Aristotle to mean an argument from probabilities. Got it.

I think that the subtle, personal effect that Atlas has upon a rational person is completely transforming. Particularly the concept of "the sanction of the victim". A current example of this occured just tonight on Bill Maher's HBO show which is outrageously funny. He was sandwiched between Joy Behar of the View and some non descript, confused and irrational socialist. The socialist consistently self destructed at the rational first principle questions that were posed by Carlson, who states clearly that he is a libertarian. The socialist's bottom line "argument" was that republicans/Bush/capitalists want to kill poor children. He, the knee jerk socialist, stated that the issue was about being bi-partisan[which may be a new DSM sexual disability soon-just joking]. Thankfully, Tucker refused to be guilty for asking the primary question which is: by what right does the state act to force all americans to be insured for their health? -Atlas Shrugged- contains many useful and potent memes. One does not have to buy the Objectivst Package in the entirety (which includes Rand's dislike of Bethoven) to come away with useful ideas. I never became an Objectivist, but I did profit from reading -Atlas Shrugged-. I thought the idea of bringing the country to its knees by going on strike was way, way cool, even if impractical. The principle is sound. One must withdraw one's approval and sanction. It is the power of No!!!!!. One does not have to be an Objectivist to see that this is a valid principle and can even be an effective tactic. If thine enemy requires thy co-operation, don't co-operate. He may be able to kill you, but he can't destroy you as a volitional being. If you saw the motion picture -V for Vendetta- you will see in the final scene that Chancellor Sutler's regime is brought down by a non-violent refusal of the population to accept its rule any longer. Folks by the millions donned their Guy Fawkes mask and marched and refused to submit. The army backed down. They had neither the spleen nor the bullets to wipe out the population. Sometimes the Big No works. Parliement was blown up, at long last, but little blood was spilled. Ba'al Chatzaf Yes, precisely. Vendetta is a fine movie thematicly and some damn good graphics. This theme has been beautifully woven through many American and Foreign films. Rollerball with James Caan was powerful. Meet John Doe with Cooper. The Grapes of Wrath with Fonda. The Last Castle with Redford. A recent billiant Foreign film The Lives of Others which is a very real view of the lives of citizens under the savage Stazi in East Germany. I considered accepting Objectivism as a total basic philosophical system when I went to NBI. However, when I lived through and bore personal witness to internal structural purges by the existing Keepers of the Flame, I understood that the "organization" was making an instinctive internal correction which would hamper its ability to be as effective as I desired it to be. Therefore, since I was not, nor ever would be a "true believer", as Hoffer uses the term, I took all the wisdom that I learned from Rand and others at NBI and proceeded forward in the political world. My statements to the sad disillusioned friends that I had at NBI about discovering that their "towering idols" had clay feet with a lot of mud on them was to check their premises. Did a Randian axiom that you knew to be true change because of her personal behavior? Clearly, the answer is no. Finally, when you guys use the term "meme", I am assuming it is not used in complimentary way!

I think that the subtle, personal effect that Atlas has upon a rational person is completely transforming. Particularly the concept of "the sanction of the victim". A current example of this occured just tonight on Bill Maher's HBO show which is outrageously funny. He was sandwiched between Joy Behar of the View and some non descript, confused and irrational socialist. The socialist consistently self destructed at the rational first principle questions that were posed by Carlson, who states clearly that he is a libertarian. The socialist's bottom line "argument" was that republicans/Bush/capitalists want to kill poor children. He, the knee jerk socialist, stated that the issue was about being bi-partisan[which may be a new DSM sexual disability soon-just joking]. Thankfully, Tucker refused to be guilty for asking the primary question which is: by what right does the state act to force all americans to be insured for their health?

Ahh, and there in lies the tale. My thesis "advisor" was an extreme left wing professor. The worst aspect of his rigid personality was that he was a rabid B.F. Skinner behavioralist. In the presentation conference, wherein, just he and I were in the room, he declared that Ayn Rand was a Fascist and her body of work could never be a movement. I was twenty-two and had read Atlas at the age of twelve. Attended NBI in the early sixties. Pardon my use of words we all know and may use, but I stated that he could utilize the rolled up copy of my thesis as an anal probe and I would not be submitting the thesis. I left teaching there two years later. However, I have slept well since that day and would not trade his slack jawed look for any piece of paper he could have "helped" me get.

Thank you. Just set the recorder. My Master's Thesis was "An Aristotelian Analysis of the Objectivist Movement".

Probable, but all you need is one staffer with a sense of humor. I frankly think it's great advertising. I highly recommend it be read by all.

No. It was the early seventies, we were still doing cave paintings.