Dodger

Forgive me for being angry. However, it was my choice and I wanted to releave myself of the anger. But eh, my previous post combatting Robert should be enough to explain further.

I posted this here simply because I was angry, and I wanted to get something out of my system. I generalized as well. I do not want anyone to take anything I said as gospel, simply because it was merely a way for me to shred my bitter mood. Robert: If you are going to challenge me, at least put up a better fight. Yes, Victor's post was very good, and I admired him for taking such a stance. I also admired him for not getting angry because I decided to lash out and relieve some of my anger. I was fine with this until you insulted me. Please, take your childish 'Stupid kid' accusations elseware--I will not tolerate it. If you dont like the way I say something, fine, but you do not have to start a flame war. I'm 17. I'll have to ask you to not label me, or judge me based on one post that I made that I have already defined as anger driven. Wow. What pisses you off so much about me? Is it that I decided not to care what anyone thought? Is it that I was honest? What's even funnier, you have already deemed me unworthy of debating, when I, even though I was angry in my rant, am willing to listen to you and reconsider my position and how I handle situations. However, I do not respond well to posts that completely insult me. You have just lost your credibility by approaching this matter thanatonically. You had a goal in mind, and it was to completely bash me for my post. Seems like you're the one who needs to grow up. I've read it. Im happy with what I wrote. It was an effective way for me to relieve myself, and better yet, Victor responded in an admirable way. He saw this rant for what it was and did not act thanatonically--rather, he acted the opposite. You chose otherwise. You deserve a hard slap to the face. You ONCE AGAIN have drawn conclusions about me and assumed you know my character, philosophy, and my life by ONE POST. I have been a Christian for the majority of my life. I was a Christian when I read Atlas Shrugged. The book did not alter my faith in any way, but what it did do was tell me one thing: check my premises. After I read the book I simply started looking inward at myself, questioning my beliefs and values. It is through these actions that I came to my conclusions, and the indirect influence of others around me. Obviously, I pissed you off and you decided to take that anger and use it in a NEGATIVE WAY!!! Anger is neutral until it is given actions associated with it. You have taken a negative path and decided to flame me, insult me, and judge me. However, you cannot accuse me of doing the same of Christianity. I have been a Christian almost all my life, and I have a very firm grasp of the knowledge and teachings Christianity represents. My decision to change was made alone, and by my own logic. NOT by Ayn Rand and NOT by anyone else. Your manner of expression is not welcome here by me, either. At least, not until you redeem yourself and regain your credibility that you just forfeited. Yes, the picture is coming clearer. The picture is that you have assumed and have been thanatonic in your post. You obviously already hold some sort of superiority complex, at least when it comes to me. Please, throw it away. Sigh. More insults. If you are so sure that you are much more intelligent than I am, and you are justified in basing your beliefs of me on assumptions, then far be it for me to tell you that you are wrong. Now then. Please dont miss this part: I am willing to declare anything I say wrong. I am willing to comprimise. I am willing to lose. However, in order for me to admit any form of defeat, YOU have to do a better job of proving me wrong. Personal attacks of this matter do nothing but stir my temper. All you have to do is detach yourself from the outcome of this post and cooperate in a rational, logical manner. If you want to prove me wrong , or do anything at all, then do it with an open mind, and do not be so quick to judge. Do not start flame wars, and do not insult me. You have the chance to regain your credibility but only you can do it. You have to be willing to cooperate. Baal: I agree 100%. The Bible itself is a valuable cultural artifact and has many things that can be useful. But when it comes to believing that the book is the holy word of God--that is when you have crossed the line. Thank you for that. I rather enjoyed learning a few new things, and being encouraged to look at it through historical means. I appreciate this Not bad at all. But please dont confuse my anger at the way the book is viewed from the book itself.

That is exactly right. It is one of the topics I plan to discuss later.

Victor, Thank you so much. I am glad that you were able to read through my emotion-fueld rant and give me an objective comment. Your comment is very insightful, and you are correct. The Bible may be a horrible book to base one's life off of, but it is a good historical collection of information. Just for the sake of sharing: I have the bible's teachings known to such an extent that I can teach a Christian how to live his life. I know what it takes to get into heaven, what should be done, what should not, etc. It is because I know the bible so well and the religion itself that I throw it away. Those who believe in Christianity do not really know that which is the bible, rather, hey know what is taught to them, and they believe it like mindless sheep following a shepard. It is disgusting to watch so many people try to discredit arguements by using verses of the bible, as if it were the top authority. I have been raised Christian. I can understand how a Christian reacts to being questioned and proven wrong, because I was once one. I know how irrational I was and how I used the bible to validate all that I said. I remember when others presented perfectly logical statements that refuted me, and how I reacted. I remember it all, which means I know exactly why Christians believe what they believe, how they have come to believe it, and why it is flawed, simply because I have been through the motions. I recently went to a church 2 weeks ago on a wednesday night. This is the ironic part: I was able to debate with the youth pastor, and I gained a tremendous amount of respect from people I have never met simply because my knowledge of the bible was far greated than theirs. I had the ability to teach them everything about their own religion, show them verses to back it up, etc. That was a very eye-opening experience. I saw how desperate they were for a man of intelligence to lead them. Christians do not look to God or the Bible, they look to the most knowledgeable man and the most inspiring to lead them. Hell, if I wanted to, I could probably be a world renown preacher. Eh...Im ranting again. I cant sleep at the moment, I have a woman on my mind Anyways, Victor, thank you again for your comment, and that quote you gave me is amazing. It makes me want to read the book again. Man I love this place

Alright. I like to rant when I'm angry. So I'll rant to get this out of my system. Jesus H Christ I cant believe how people believe all of this bull that is Christianity. It is unimaginable. Here is my logical conclusion. If the Bible is God's Holy Word, then it cannot be wrong....ever. It cannot lie, it cannot have errors, it cannot be false. However, many blatant contradictiosn exist. This means (BY GOD'S OWN DECREE) that the Bible is a bunch of cock and bull. Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaradox. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! I was talking to this 15 year old girl, and she asked me to pray for her. I, being the blunt, honest person that I am said that I could not do so because I no longer considered myself a Christian. She asked me why and I gave her a few reasons. Well, it sparked a debate. So I decided to end it quickly, so I told her that the bible has contradictions. She said that isnt true, and I quoted a few verses. Generally, the contradiction is this: Some of the bible says 'FAITH ALONT CAN SAVE YOU!!!!!' Some parts say 'FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!!!!!' I quoted the verses in James that completely destroy the Bible's credibility. She responded by saying that I was wrong and kept showing me more and more verses that say essentially the same thing, that only faith can save you. I laughed so god damn hard that I almost pissed myself. I could not BELIEVE that someone would IGNORE such a BOLD contradiction!! I asked her if she saw the contradiction.... She said yes. HAHAHAHAHAHAA! And you STILL believe this bull crap?!?!? Oh dear GOD it was HILARIOUS. Whats even funnier. The Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible CONTRADICT EACH OTHER!!!! Well...one of them HAS to be right, dontcha think? WHICH ONE?!?!? And if you tell me the Catholic Bible is right Ill say 'HAHAHAH BS DUDE' and show you the inner contradictions of the bible. The bible IS NOT GODS SPOKEN WORD!!!! IT IS A COLLECTION OF WORKS OF MEN GROUPED TOGETHER IN A HUGE MESS THAT WE CALL HOLY!!! LMFAO!!!! THE ADAM AND EVE STORY WASNT EVEN WRITTEN TILL MOSES WAS ALIVE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Oh man. I find this so entertaining and I just LOVE making Christians run away with their tails between their legs. Oh.. Im sorry, but I am completely emotionally detached when I talk to people who believe in Christianity. I think they are sheep and that they dont deserve my nice caring side. I would much rather show them the asshole that I can be. My apologies if this offends anyone, but I had to get it out of my system. But if you are an objectivist, then Im sure you will feel as I do.

(The lines in {} I dont like well, and I think it is out of place with the theme, but I put them there for symmetry. I may put something else in its place later) For all of the time that I have spent Lost, alone, and often bent Forward I will press until the horizon Sinks under the passing--views I've forgotten. Falling faster into the night sky, I dream of a place where I am alive Able to speak and able to share, All of these thoughts--in bitter despair. Too many faces for me to remember Harder to think with this curious ember; Burning inside of my inner dimensions, Spreading so slowly--I'm losing my vision. Further behind; I seem to keep falling, Into this darkness--steady I'm calling: Calling out for those who will listen Those who will know of my hopeless condition. I wonder at times why I am so broken, Falling alone--nothing is spoken; Why is it that you remain quiet, While my soul breaks in a desperate riot? {I know that you hear me, but I am not certain, Of where I may find you--Ill pull back the curtains Those that keep you clear out of sight And then you will see me--in undeserving light.} Take me apart and spread out the pieces See what I am as my eyesight decreases: Maybe then you could stop me from falling Catch me in your eyes that are so delightfully haunting. I hope for the day when we finally meet, Together with you I would finally sleep But until you are mine I can only dream, That soon you will catch me--this is my theme.

Im going to a technical college

Not only will you have more input, but I have about 4 more parts to write. I also plan to expand my thoughts into the whole of the educational process and eventually lay out my ideas and how I think the educational system SHOULD work. That is true to some extent. What you do get in return is the ability to advance to the next grade. These tests measure your ability and value as a student. Ironically enough, I have never seen a university rely on the state administered tests for evaluation. Even another reason why they should be done away with.

Dodger, Ayn Rand wrote several novels and even more non-fiction books to one end: to explain the logic of her concept of morality. Have you read any of her works? Barbara. No, sadly, I have not. Are there any specific books that you would like to suggest for reading materal? I still have to sand down my views and beliefs--Im a bit unsure of things at the moment. Michael: Very good point you made there. Does this mean we can come to a comprimise and we can both win?

There are a few reasons why I am starting this topic. 1) I have an essay to write on this topic and I felt the best way to get started would be to gather my ideas and post them, and 2) I want to sand down the rough edges of my beliefs and eventually post them in article format. Anyways, lets get to it. Competitive Academics: Taking An Objective Stance When all that's left are standards. Part One: Standardized Tests. As a student of high school, I know all too well the pain and suffering that is the standardized test. My school seems to treat the test as if it were a life and death situation, and nothing else mattered but your performance on it. By doing this, the school has, in my opinion, destroyed and disregarded all that is education and the spirt of learning. Part 1: A Everytime a testing date is announced you have two general responses from students--either they grow weary of the test and become annoyed, or they begin to study and prepare. Now, in an ideal world, all students would see the value of these tests and want to do well. They would know that these tests, whether basic or not, would be what defines them and gives them access to postsecondary education. However, this is not an ideal world, and when it comes to public schools, the majority of students are annoyed at these tests. If the majority of students are discouraged, annoyed, and would rather be doing something else, wouldn't it be logical to modify how student's abilities and values are measured? If it is impossible to ever have 100% of students to want to score high, what is the point of administering such tests? The answer is simple. Standards. It is much easier for employers to simply look at a sheet of paper and tell whether or not someone is worthy of hiring. It is much easier for universities to look at your test scores to see whether or not you should be admitted. However, there is a huge, but unnoticed flaw. While this is a simple way to keep things organized, it can discriminate against those who's test scores are not high enough, whatever the subject may be. Take, for instance, the student who understands the inner workings of a computer. The kid is considered an electronical genius, but he values his work more than anything. Because of this, his test scores are low. He doesn't focus in school, and the classes he feels are unneccessary he does not focus in. He falls behind in his English classes, and his History classes, and his test scores reflect his carelessness. He eventually drops out of high school, and works as a computer technician for $8 an hour. This kid could have been a millionaire. He could have done so much, but he did not value things that were unneccessary for his work. It may seem as if his position is justified by his lack of caring in school, but is it his fault that his values are different than others? Is it his fault that his perspective differs from the norm? Of course, people would say that he should adapt to his situation, and do well on the tests because they are important. Any man with good work ethics would tell him that. But this is what we call a STANDARD. The standards held to encourage competitive academics ultimately fail and lose a lot of valuable minds. It is easy for a student with an average memory to score well on a test, but it is not easy for an average student to disassemble a computer and put it back together with ease. I believe that when it comes to the skills required for jobs, standards should be utilized. However, when it comes to measuring a student's value and chance of success, it is not efficient enough and should be done away with. Part 1: B Every single one of the classes I've been in has been forced to spend time to focus on the test. My ELECTIVE classes have even been forced to do so--All because last year's test scores were unacceptable and we needed to score higher so the state would raise the school's funding. By doing this the school has completely wiped out any motivation that students may have had before. When good, smart students who can score well on the test get testing stratagies and information shoved down their throats every day, they get sick of it, and grow tired of the time wasted. Intelligent students would rather spend their time focusing on career oriented tasks, instead of having class time used for something they dont need. As for the students who already are discouraged and annoyed, they sometimes get fed up with it and dont even show up on the testing date. Their care is diminished, and they would much rather spend their time playing video games and watching TV. If these tests cause so many problems to the majority of students, why would they still be kept in place? The answer is the same as before. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post is probably what triggered my thoughts the most. Forgive me, but I have not completely abandoned my stance. While it has been shaken, I still believe that there is something flawed in your arguement. You may not be entirely wrong, but I do not believe you are entirely right either. However, the case you just presented is enough to knock me off my feet, and I have staggered a bit. I can't explain further, because I have not made sense of everything yet, but I feel as if in the short distance there lies a realization that is beckoning me. However, this realization is a bit different than what you are suggesting. I stand by my previous posts until I can sort out the thoughts that your post seemed to unlock.

Ah yes, the old 'Shoo kid, you don't know what you are talking about' situations. It doenst both me much anymore that older people dont appreciate anything I say, considering they have experience and I just have raw knowledge. I would have to say that an excess of one is never a good thing, but a balance between the two can keep your thoughts in check. I do have to say though, I despise those who look down on me when they have no credibility. Oh wait, I already emphasized that in my speech

Well you have to consider I am a bit biased when it comes to music. I am always open to hearing new music, so if you could give me some suggestions (track wise) I'll be sure to look into it. And about playing the piano, believe it or not, I've been playing since I was 1 1/2 years old. My grandmother had been teaching me so much while I was young that by the time I was this age I could speak in full sentences. I had an oversized cassette player and a Disney music tape that I listened to every night while going to sleep (a habit I still possess to this day, listening to music at night ). Anyways, one of the songs on that tape was 'Its a Small World,' Im sure youve heard it before. Well, after I listened to it countless times I decided to tinker with this small toy piano in our living room. It was there that I played the melody to the song by ear. Ever since then my grandmother has backed all my musical endeavours. As of now, I've been taking lessens for the past 10 years, and prior to that I played by ear. My favorite piece to showcase my skill would have to be the Black Key (Op 10, No 5--Chopin).

I understand your views, but I do not agree with them. Personal issues and emotional attachment differs between us, it seems. Let me elaborate. Michael: All well and good, but you have to remember that what may seem right and just to you may seem wrong and unjust to others. Any term of description is completely relative. What is evil is what goes against the moral standard, and what is good is what agrees with it. In an opposite world, what is evil would be considered good. It is my firm belief that emotional and mental detachment from situations of this level should be highly prioritized. While it may seem honorable to hate that which is morally evil and unjust, you do yourself injustice. I do not believe in right and wrong. I believe in logic. I try the find the best, logical, and most beneficial and valuable solution to my problems. Sadly, this kid did not solve his problem in the best way he could. Call him evil, call him insane, call him whatever. I feel no sympathy for him and I believe that if he were alive he should be given the death penalty, effective immediately, not because I despise him, but because it is the morally right thing to do by our standards. If further elaboration is needed please let me know. Enonemaker: I saw the videos online, the pictures, and read some of the material. His rationale was completely illogical. His anger caused him to assume he knew that which he didnt, and he did not even attempt to socialize at all to solve his problems. He chose the worst possible action he could have taken in his situation. To him, everyone was a target. He felt victimized by everyone. If you listened, you should have heard him say something along the lines of 'backed me into a corner, left me no choice,' and 'stained your hands with blood.' He was speaking to everyone. He hated everyone. He was depressed, alone, and played the victim card. He did this all illogically and did not solve his problems in the best way he could have. It all could have been avoided only if he was willing to cooperate and at least see things from other perspectives. That's fair, dont forgive him. But dont hate him. Detach your emotions from this topic, because it is really a waste of time. I understand your reasons behind your emotions but you have to remember that you should follow your mind and not your emotions. If you let your hatred for someone effect the way you think, it can be dangerous. It is best to remain detached, and as I said before, sympathize with those who lost friends and loved ones, and move on.

I don't like the word social. :getlost: I dont believe I have a moral obligation to pursue a social goal with objectivism but I do believe that anyone with power can at least open the door for others. I'd rather be a detached leader than that of a sympathetic teacher.

Not cocky, just self assured Anyways, I see your point. However, I believe it can be played both ways. If someone is to gain influential power (whether it be political or not) they can use their influence and popularity to spread objectivism. I believe the best way to go about gaining respect and influence is not through political means, but by entrepreneurship. It is my firm belief that if I am to start a business from the bottom and work my way up and become one of the leading corporations in America (Fortune 500 or so) and get my hands into as much as possible that eventually, I would be able to influence others to a degree. However, its 4:25 AM and I'm half asleep, so I'll expand on my ideas when I'm awake.

Any comments pertaining to my actual description and NOT about Dagny?

Eh, can you expand your ideas? American Idol may be a waste of time to watch but I think its quite an interesting topic to discuss. Many characteristics of people in general can be determined just from this show

That post made me laugh. Very enjoyable. Perhaps it should be moved to the humour section?

I felt compelled to post because I have been listening to Evanescence for quite some time, and I have never heard a more musical rock band...ever. I myself am a pianist and I have a wide range of styles that I enjoy playing, from classical to contemporary, and I have never heard piano scores as brilliant as those used by Evanescence. Evanescence uses Amy Lee's towering voice, thrashing guitars, haunting choir chants, abstract melodies, and beautiful piano innovations that simply astound me. If you have a spare $20 bill in your wallet, go to Wal-Mart and buy 'The Open Door' By Evanescence. Particular tracks that stand out are: Sweet Sacrifice--Loud, smart, and powerful. Weight Of The World--I love the middle-eastern accents that accompany this song. Louder and more powerful than Sweet Sacrifice Lithium--Beautiful piece, with the proper progressions in the right places. Cloud Nine--Haunting, loud, and beautiful, even with the constant guitar riffs. Lacrymosa--Words cannot describe the sheer beauty and brilliance that is Lacrymosa. Lose Control--This song also utilizes some middle eastern accents and chants that sound amazing. Good Enough--One of the most beautiful piano pieces I have ever heard. Period.

Jump on your soapbox? Dont mind if I do! Heh, I remain a virgin in all connotations of the word. I have never kissed a girl, had a girlfriend, or even been close to one. To many I am considered a loner, but in reality, Im just picky I dont particularly care how the opposite sex thinks generally or how they act, simply because there is no huge difference. A man can have feminine characteristics and a woman can have masculine characteristics. It isnt about the differences between the sexes, it is about what compliments you the best. The woman of my dreams is someone like Dagny Taggart, but not as naive (yes I called her naive--shame on me). I want a woman who is unimaginably strong, self aware, and able to produce. Notice intelligence is not one of my top priorities. I believe that as long as she is strong willed, and aware of herself in all senses of the word, then I believe I would be fine. I want her to be strong because I want someone to lean on. I want someone to encourage me without saying a word. As competitive as I am, the stronger she is, the more motivated I will be to outsmart her, and show off. However, my motivation would be solely her, and everything I would do I would do for her. I'd want her to be so strong that a role reversal were possible. You know that stereotypical image of a man holding a woman in a superior form (her head in his chest), and how she feels safe? Well, Id love for that to be her holding me, simply because at times I feel weak as well. I wouldnt want the stereotypical emotional support that women generally give; I would want her to be the one to protect me I want her to be self aware, simply because as long as she knows herself and knows what she wants, is capable of, and values, then I would be happy. I dont care if she is a genius or not, or if I am smarter than she is. As long as she knows herself and works to her fullest ability I will be happy. I want her to be able to produce. Now this can mean many things, and I havent narrowed down what I want most. She could be the mother who is productive through her teaching of the children we will have, or she could be the woman who is CEO of a major company. I dont know and I particularly dont care as of now, but I want her to be a leader and a producer, not a looter. Anyways, that sums it up to some degree. I could be much more specific but you have better things to do than read a book

I'm going to DeVry for my degree in Electronics Engineering Technology. While it might not be an Ivy League school, it teaches you by doing. I visited the campus and saw freshmen building circuit boards. It was like heaven on earth for me, because I love electronics, and I have inventions that I have always wanted to create but never had the know-how to do so. If you are really interested in my plans, and have about an hour or so of free time, let me know, because I have a lot of things that I can share that may interest you EDIT: I never knew the Artful Dodger was a fictional character, I believed it was just a made up name. Heh, you learn something new everyday eh?

And Ive only made about 10 posts I agree somewhat, however, Christianity wasnt a genius psychological achievement; it was just a smart way to attract people--grace. When people are given an oppurtunity to believe that in the end nothing matters but their beliefs then of course they are going to follow the religion. Now I tend to disagree with you here because Objectivism is something of a different breed. It is not a religion, and there are no deities that one must follow. There is no written code; only what Ayn Rand wrote. It can be interpreted many ways, but I doubt there will ever be a day when something is done in the name of 'Objectivism.' In order for any movement to be completely one sided (as in, all beliefs are the same) there would have to be some sort of code/standard that members of the philosophy must follow, but I have yet to see any. The only code I know is that you should use your mind to its greatest ability, and work for your own happiness, and whatever you can do to achieve it is morally acceptable. Perspectives differ, and in objectivism there are bound to be inner quarrels, but it isnt a bad thing. It means that we arent sheep and that we, as a group, compliment each other in our disagreements. If we all were justified by one another and always agreed, hazardous things could happen, IE: Superiority Complexes, close mindedness, etc. As long as we remain self aware everything should be fine.

I think it's very difficult for objectivists, or even people who love life, to wrap their head around what could possibly motiviate someone to kill another human being, let alone 30+ of them. We could come up with many guesses, maybe he had a painful life and wanted to hear others, maybe he just snapped, we'll never really know unless he wrote a clear note detailing his reasoning. If he wanted to kill himself why take 30 other people with him? I can't think anything but he is a scumbag and an embodiment of evil, I can't forgive him because he was lonely or molested or any of that crap, he killed 30 people, many with a 2 hour break in between. He was methodical and motivated. It sucks, what a tragic event. The part in bold is what caught my attention. I havent read the whole thread but I do want to make a point. I think it is very possible for people to wrap their heads around these types of situations. It isnt that it is a difficult thing to do, its just that most people do not WANT to accept the fact that human beings are capable of such acts. This kid's anger was unproductive. He was angry at those who had more, those with more money, power, control, whatever. Generally speaking, he hated those with more than him. This drove him to the point where the only reason to end his anger would be to take as many of them out as possible and then end his own life. If you've read Hamlet, you should think of the 'To be or not to be' passage because this kid did the opposite of what Hamlet did. He ended his life and other's lives to solve his problems. Now, from his perspective, this was a perfectly rational thing to do. He closed his mind to all other choices he could have made and made a decision--sadly, his decision wasn't the best solution to his problem. Whether or not you want to believe it this kid did what he did and he felt justified by doing it. No one should feel any hatred for this kid, or not forgive him for his actions. Perspectives differ, and people solve problems differently. Now dont get me wrong, Im not trying to justify what he did and explain it to you all, but I am trying to get you to understand that in his mind this was his only option, and being angry, hateful, sad, depressed, or any of these emotions that you could spend on this topic are a waste of time. Sympathize with those who lost friends and loved ones, and move on. Remember, do not let your feelings control your character. Rather, define why you feel the way you do and decide whether or not it is a waste of time.

I agree but I don't think objectivism is complex at all. I do not believe objectivists need formal, systematic training, and I think that encouraging such could cause problems. I view objectivism as a philosophy where the individual chooses what applies to him/her. If reason is a man's only absolute, then creating a setting in which people are taught as if it were sunday school can be hazardous to the philosophy's standards. I'd like to believe it is a simple as this: There are no contradictions. Check your premises. One of them is wrong.