Does Anybody Know a Randian Hero?

[PDS]

My guess is that many of us were/are drawn to Objectivism because of Rand's depiction of her heroes in her novels.

One would hope that such people actually exist in the real world.* Does anybody personally know such a person? No need to names, just tell us if you know one, and why you consider him/her to qualify!**

*They might be Randian heroes and not even know it--knowledge of ITOE is not a prerequisite.

**It is hereby stipulated that Ed Snyder, Nathanial Branden and others of that ilk probably qualify. If you must bring them up, I suppose I cannot prevent it. But I strongly discourage it.

[syrakusos]

I do not know Ed Snider or Nathaniel Branden. I thought that the question implied that you know the person directly. I also assume that the person is an other person, not yourself. Then, my question would be, "Don't you know any?" Who are you associating with?

And then, I suppose it matters which heroes. I mean, Eddie Williers and Mike Donnigan would qualify, as well as Galt's engineering department manager who remained nameless, and the truck driver whom Dagny met in the Valley.

Heroes can be unsuccessful. We the Living has at least three, maybe four. That would bring up Gail Wynand and Cheryl Brooks from The Fountainhead and maybe even Tony the Wetnurse.

One time, a guy appeared as if out of nowhere and handed me a gold bar. It's a shaggy dog story that I can tell later.

[dldelancey]

Several people come to mind, but there seems to be something with each one that rules them out. For instance, my oldest brother would be at the top of my list, except that he's a faithful Baptist.

[PDS]

I left the term "hero" fairly vague on purpose. You fill in the blanks. Personally, I don't think Eddie Willers qualifies, but your mileage may vary.

The question seeks those with whom you have personal knowledge. I brought up Snyder and Branden to preempt the usual discussions about them.

If the only person you can think of is yourself, well, then, no comment...

[Ellen Stuttle]

My guess is that many of us were/are drawn to Objectivism because of Rand's depiction of her heroes in her novels.

One would hope that such people actually exist in the real world.*

I'm one who wasn't admiring of Rand's heroes, except partly, in an abstract way, but not in the sense of finding the characters "real" or sketches of people I'd want to be like (except in a very abstract way) or to know. I wouldn't say I've ever met anyone who actually is a Rand hero-type, unless, loosely, characters from We the Living, the characterization in which I find close to believable.

Ellen

[dldelancey]

My guess is that many of us were/are drawn to Objectivism because of Rand's depiction of her heroes in her novels.

One would hope that such people actually exist in the real world.*

I'm one who wasn't admiring of Rand's heroes, except partly, in an abstract way, but not in the sense of finding the characters "real" or sketches of people I'd want to be like (except in a very abstract way) or to know. I wouldn't say I've ever met anyone who actually is a Rand hero-type, unless, loosely, characters from We the Living, the characterization in which I find close to believable.

Ellen

I believe this has come up before in passing. I agree with you Ellen, especially about Rand's female heroes. I've never thought of them as women I would be friends with in real life.

That said, there are a lot of strong, productive, self-reliant women I count among my friends. They are as close to Randian female heroines as I'm likely to get.

[Robert Baratheon]

The reason why there are so few "pure" heroes is The System makes hypocrites of us all from the day we are born. The food we eat is produced with government subsidies. We drive on public roads in cars built according to public safety standards. The military fights wars for us whether we ask it to or not. Our salaries are garnished into social programs like Social Security and Medicare, and they are doled back to us at the end of our lives. This makes it nearly impossible for a pure hero to emerge without being shouted down by the progressive elite as ingrates and frauds.

[syrakusos]

Well, I spent a day with T. J. Rodgers of Cyprus Semiconductor. I would have to include Kat and MSK. Bill Bradford founded Liberty Magazine from his profits from Liberty Coin Service. I actively socialzed with Bill for about a decade. Michael J. Hoy of Loompanics should be included in the list. My ex-wife. (See here on Galt's Gulch Online.) I could go on all day...

[PDS]

Well, I spent a day with T. J. Rodgers of Cyprus Semiconductor. I would have to include Kat and MSK. Bill Bradford founded Liberty Magazine from his profits from Liberty Coin Service. I actively socialzed with Bill for about a decade. Michael J. Hoy of Loompanics should be included in the list. My ex-wife. (See here on Galt's Gulch Online.) I could go on all day...

Please don't. (Go on all day, that is).

There is nothing to be defensive about.

So far you have listed some names. Why do you think these folks are Randian heroes?

[PDS]

The reason why there are so few "pure" heroes is The System makes hypocrites of us all from the day we are born. The food we eat is produced with government subsidies. We drive on public roads in cars built according to public safety standards. The military fights wars for us whether we ask it to or not. Our salaries are garnished into social programs like Social Security and Medicare, and they are doled back to us at the end of our lives. This makes it nearly impossible for a pure hero to emerge without being shouted down by the progressive elite as ingrates and frauds.

This is highly cynical. I don't believe you believe this.

Rand's heroes existed within the system you have described. Yet, they were still heroic.

Are you saying you don't know of anyone who qualifies?

[Robert Baratheon]

This is highly cynical. I don't believe you believe this.

Rand's heroes existed within the system you have described. Yet, they were still heroic.

Are you saying you don't know of anyone who qualifies?

Rand's heroes are idealized and fictional. They also derive from a time when the administrative state was only a tiny fraction of what it is today.

I don't know any pure heroes because The System doesn't allow for purity - it can't tolerate it. There is no way one can survive in the modern world without participating. It's the same principle as drug dealers forcing the newbie to shoot heroin or clip someone from a rival gang to see if they're a narc.

[Brant Gaede]

The reason why there are so few "pure" heroes is The System makes hypocrites of us all from the day we are born. The food we eat is produced with government subsidies. We drive on public roads in cars built according to public safety standards. The military fights wars for us whether we ask it to or not. Our salaries are garnished into social programs like Social Security and Medicare, and they are doled back to us at the end of our lives. This makes it nearly impossible for a pure hero to emerge without being shouted down by the progressive elite as ingrates and frauds.

You're a hypocrite?

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You're a hypocrite?

Brant,

Now you see what I've been seeing.

And it doesn't have to be that way. This dude has a good head, a notion of morality, and has alternatives, but he's embraced being corrupt and preaches that we all are--that none of us can help but be corrupt.

(Just embrace the suck.)

He will preach this to death if you let him, and when that gets irritating, he will start nitpicking this and that to try to prove it. And then insinuate that this is Randian thinking.

If you make a lawyer joke--because that sounds a hell of a lot like Soul of Solicitor to me --he gets pissed and wants to defend the honor of the lawyer class.

Frankly, I'm stumped on how to reach this guy. I'll eventually find common ground for communication, I hope.

Michael

[jts]

So far I did not see a definition of 'Randian hero'. An attempt at a definition: A Randian hero is a person who John Galt would be after to join the strike.

And what type of person would John Galt be after? I guess someone in whose absence the world or a large part of it collapses.

[Serapis Bey]

[anthony]

So far I did not see a definition of 'Randian hero'. An attempt at a definition: A Randian hero is a person who John Galt would be after to join the strike.

And what type of person would John Galt be after? I guess someone in whose absence the world or a large part of it collapses.

Too exclusive (also, fictional) a definition for me. Though it is tempting to fall back on Rand's larger than life "ideal men and women" - or else, in reality, to the "movers and shakers" of our time.

I believe one sells the concept badly short by overlooking the 'silent heroes': men and women of quality rather than quantity. (Anyone mention D. Trump...?).

Is there a Randian definition, per se? I haven't heard one -or forgotten it- though it's apparent by extrapolation and implication.

Boiled down, I think it's an individual who pursues his own star no matter what.

[Brant Gaede]

You're a hypocrite?

Brant,

Now you see what I've been seeing.

And it doesn't have to be that way. This dude has a good head, a notion of morality, and has alternatives, but he's embraced being corrupt and preaches that we all are--that none of us can help but be corrupt.

(Just embrace the suck.)

He will preach this to death if you let him, and when that gets irritating, he will start nitpicking this and that to try to prove it. And then insinuate that this is Randian thinking.

If you make a lawyer joke--because that sounds a hell of a lot like Soul of Solicitor to me --he gets pissed and wants to defend the honor of the lawyer class.

Frankly, I'm stumped on how to reach this guy. I'll eventually find common ground for communication, I hope.

Michael

Michael, does "preaching" violate OL's posting guidelines? I have no idea. It would seem to be almost a DNA thing. You might tell him exactly what he needs to do to eventually get off moderation and if that's no more preaching say so. A better way might be to limit him to two posts a day as long as he keeps Kacy out of them and otherwise let him "preach." By their preaching so shall ye know them. (That might reduce your workload a little.)

--Brant

I don't exactly know what you're not letting through

[syrakusos]

Well, I spent a day with T. J. Rodgers of Cyprus Semiconductor. I would have to include Kat and MSK. Bill Bradford founded Liberty Magazine from his profits from Liberty Coin Service. I actively socialzed with Bill for about a decade. Michael J. Hoy of Loompanics should be included in the list. My ex-wife. (See here on Galt's Gulch Online.) I could go on all day...

Please don't. (Go on all day, that is).

There is nothing to be defensive about.

So far you have listed some names. Why do you think these folks are Randian heroes?

You asked if we knew any. You did not say that you are sponsoring an essay contest.

[BaalChatzaf]

Well, I spent a day with T. J. Rodgers of Cyprus Semiconductor. I would have to include Kat and MSK. Bill Bradford founded Liberty Magazine from his profits from Liberty Coin Service. I actively socialzed with Bill for about a decade. Michael J. Hoy of Loompanics should be included in the list. My ex-wife. (See here on Galt's Gulch Online.) I could go on all day...

A whole day with T. J. Rodgers? That must have been interesting.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[PDS]

Well, I spent a day with T. J. Rodgers of Cyprus Semiconductor. I would have to include Kat and MSK. Bill Bradford founded Liberty Magazine from his profits from Liberty Coin Service. I actively socialzed with Bill for about a decade. Michael J. Hoy of Loompanics should be included in the list. My ex-wife. (See here on Galt's Gulch Online.) I could go on all day...

Please don't. (Go on all day, that is).

There is nothing to be defensive about.

So far you have listed some names. Why do you think these folks are Randian heroes?

You asked if we knew any. You did not say that you are sponsoring an essay contest.

You're sort of unpleasant at times, for no apparent reason. Were you aware of that?

Since your reading comprehension has once again failed you, here is what I actually said, to begin this topic: "Does anybody personally know such a person? No need to names, just tell us if you know one, and why you consider him/her to qualify!**"

I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you, but here is my guess: you are suspicious of my motives for asking the question. If so, you are over-sciencing things far too much.

I am not interested in gotcha, or making a point. I simply am interested in knowing whether--in "real life"--the folks on this board have run into people that they consider Randian heroes. Frankly, I had assumed there would be more people willing to list/rattle off more names or persons. So far, we have less than a handful of real life examples. If the well continues to run dry, we may all wish to consider why this is the case.

[PDS]

You're a hypocrite?

Brant,

Now you see what I've been seeing.

And it doesn't have to be that way. This dude has a good head, a notion of morality, and has alternatives, but he's embraced being corrupt and preaches that we all are--that none of us can help but be corrupt.

(Just embrace the suck.)

He will preach this to death if you let him, and when that gets irritating, he will start nitpicking this and that to try to prove it. And then insinuate that this is Randian thinking.

If you make a lawyer joke--because that sounds a hell of a lot like Soul of Solicitor to me --he gets pissed and wants to defend the honor of the lawyer class.

Frankly, I'm stumped on how to reach this guy. I'll eventually find common ground for communication, I hope.

Michael

Ah lawyer jokes. The profession has earned every one of them, I am afraid.

I used to be bothered by lawyer jokes, but they don't bother me anymore. Somewhere in the last 27 years of practicing, I figured out that people who complain about lawyers have a tendency to call on them when they get in legal trouble, and the higher the stakes, the louder the call. Now the jokes just sort of sadden me. I am essentially a high paid plumber, called in when the pipes freeze and water is coming through the ceiling. That's when people love lawyers, even if they don't love how much they cost.

Lawyering is a zero-sum game. Somebody wins and somebody loses. This is true even when cases settle. I have spent 27 years looking over my shoulder with an "opponent" every single day, waiting for me to fuck something up, to be lax, to pounce on weakness. Every trial I have ever won involved a client who looked at me like a hero, and someone else's client who looked at me like a villain. This is the nature of the beast.

Is it any wonder that half the people love lawyers, and half hate them, and then vice-versa?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, does "preaching" violate OL's posting guidelines? I have no idea. It would seem to be almost a DNA thing. You might tell him exactly what he needs to do to eventually get off moderation and if that's no more preaching say so. A better way might be to limit him to two posts a day as long as he keeps Kacy out of them and otherwise let him "preach." By their preaching so shall ye know them. (That might reduce your workload a little.)

Brant,

Of course preaching is not against the guidelines, although it is not advised. If a person starts flooding the forum with it, I have to step in. Otherwise, I normally do what I do--I tell the person he is preaching and expose it. Most of the time a preacher gets the idea he ain't getting a flock the easy way on OL and leaves.

As to RB, I gave very clear instructions of what I wanted in order to release the restrictions. The guy said he wouldn't obey one of the conditions because he demanded I clarify it better for him first. He refused to consider it until I massaged the message to his liking.

Lawyers look for technicalities they can leverage. My message was clear, but there were no leverage points. (Incidentally, that was on purpose because I know this game well.)

The condition he didn't understand was precisely that he accept he was not the one who sets the rules on OL. Yet notice that by his very demand, here he was trying to set rules. (He also flooded me backstage with messages aimed at getting Greg banned based on policy for OL he devised--but don't think he was ever invited to discuss OL policy with me, he wasn't--and other stuff I prefer not to discuss.)

Sorry if this seems arcane or if I seem complicated, but I know exactly where this gotcha technicality crap leads when guidelines are on the table. It's a power thing. I've simply seen it too often--and I've seen the results. It ain't happening on OL. We've got a good thing going--the good intelligent people you see around you are here because they have a place to discuss ideas that truly interest them without all the destructive social mindgames that infect lots of other places.

That's not by accident. I've paid in blood, sweat and tears over decades for the knowledge of how this works. (And I'm still learning.)

One day he'll figure it out. (I hope--and I mean that. I think he has a good mind when he's not using to poison environments.)

I, myself, don't spit on the floor when I visit someone at their home. If I need to spit, I ask to go to the bathroom.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ah lawyer jokes. The profession has earned every one of them, I am afraid.

I used to be bothered by lawyer jokes, but they don't bother me anymore.

David,

I find it hard to consider you a lawyer because you don't act like the behavior lawyer jokes are aimed at.

I have had to use lawyers before, but part of my screening process always involved me asking them if they knew the difference between the law and justice. Most of them, believe it or not, had no idea what I was asking.

I generally chose the lawyers who were the most surprised and clueless, the ones who appeared most corrupt, because I mostly needed sleazy at the time due to sleazy laws and legal conditions of access.

A few times I needed a crusade, so I chose those who understood my question immediately.

I have rarely been disappointed in my choice of counsel.

btw - The best lawyer I ever had is one who kicked my ass to here and Kingdom come on a case involving a ballet I brought to Brazil for a tour that went sour. Long story, but he was the only one who nailed me in that fiasco, and legally, I was in the right. I thought if he was that good, I wanted him for myself. So I hired him. Before I did, when I asked him about the difference between the law and justice, he smiled knowingly and told me not to be silly.

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

If the well continues to run dry, we may all wish to consider why this is the case.

Because Rand's heroes aren't realistic?

Ellen

[Brant Gaede]

If the well continues to run dry, we may all wish to consider why this is the case.

Because Rand's heroes aren't realistic?

Ellen

Practically speaking their seemingly positive qualities need to be abstracted and evaluated. So too their seemingly bad ones. John Galt didn't go heroic--not to me--until the bad guys got their mitts on him. Passively-aggressively stopping the motor of the world was not heroic but a concession to the power of evil, ironic to the extreme as the impotence of evil was what AS was essentially all about (but that's what the collectivists were already doing, albeit actively, so he one upped them). Because he supposedly succeeded in his crusade, he blows up in size all out of his real human proportion. Thus, a "giant." Ayn Rand was all about giants even to the point of reality faux. This was great art and she was a true giant, but not a giant who went on strike. Like her heroes you properly take AS and deconstruct and then reconstruct hoping to come up with useful value--not to just go, "Wow!"

--Brant

strive to live with integrity