Does Anybody Know a Randian Hero?

[syrakusos]

You're sort of unpleasant at times, for no apparent reason. Were you aware of that?

Since your reading comprehension has once again failed you, here is what I actually said, to begin this topic: "Does anybody personally know such a person? No need to names, just tell us if you know one, and why you consider him/her to qualify!**"

I'm not sure why this is so complicated for you, but here is my guess: you are suspicious of my motives for asking the question. If so, you are over-sciencing things far too much.

I am not interested in gotcha, or making a point. I simply am interested in knowing whether--in "real life"--the folks on this board have run into people that they consider Randian heroes. Frankly, I had assumed there would be more people willing to list/rattle off more names or persons. So far, we have less than a handful of real life examples. If the well continues to run dry, we may all wish to consider why this is the case.

Sorry to have lost the topic here, PDS, but as you can see, no one else is answering the question, either. Now the subject is lawyer jokes. Ellen and Dee denied the premise of your original post. I had no hidden agenda, no suspicions, no over-thinking. I just answered your request in the way I wanted.

Let me suggest that your original post sounded more like a challenge than an invitation. I note that you did not offer any. And, again, I cite Kat and MSK, both of whom are at least nominally Objectivists. They know the canonical works of Ayn Rand; an in fact they met via the SOLO (Rebirth of Reason) discussion board.

I cited people I knew personally who have some visibility. If you do not know who T. J. Rodgers is, or never heard of Liberty Magazine or Loompanics, then just say so. As for my ex, I did post a link to the story I told about her on Galt's Gulch Online. Here is what I wrote:

This is my ex with the official "Taggart Transcontinental" t-shirt that I bought her for her 60th birthday.

We have been divorced for about 37 years, and I have been remarried for about 36, but we never lost contact with each other over the years because when we were young, we enjoyed the works of Ayn Rand. It was a bond of reason, reality, rationality, and self-interest.

We dated for about three years; and were married for about five. We had no children. At one point were going in different directions: I wanted to move out west, and she wanted to stay in town and open a business. So, we got divorced.

Basically, she is a printer. After high school, she started out on a tabletop Multilith and went on from there. She was president of the QuarkXPress users group. Today, she creates software for databases that automate the production of retail sales catalogs. When a Filemaker guru came to Austin to talk to our Macintosh user group, I dropped her name and got a nod.

Today was her birthday and my email to her included a picture of an old printing press. But I spent almost an hour watching YouTube videos of "Canadian Railroad Trilogy." Railroads were always a family interest for her; and about a lifetime ago, for another birthday, I got her a vintage engineer's cap.

We had been married a couple of years when standing in the sidelines I watched a 19-year old girl close a business deal with a man twice her age and finally understood Dagny Taggart.

Ba'al Chatzaf asked about my day with T. J. Rodgers. It was enlightening and a disaster. We learn from our mistakes.

My first and biggest error was not guessing that he wrote a book. If I had done more homework, I would have found it and read it before the interview. Obviously, I spent time on the company website and like everyone else, I read his WSJ and Cato pieces and knew about Sister Dolores and all that. But I did not get the message.

I did not spend all eight hours with T. J. Rodgers, but only the first hour and last two. Most of the day was spent with his staff, vice presidents, and department managers. He wanted to hire me to be a personal assistant for his writing projects. All of the vice presidents and his secretary thought that I was there to replace one of them. No one was friendly. No one met me at the airport. After 45 minutes, I called the office, said that I was renting a car and would be over as soon as I could. I was told that I was 45 minutes late, to take a cab, not a rental. So, I did. It went downhill from there.

Except for T. J. himself, every discussion was an argument. At least, they tried. I was grilled in one meeting after the next for six hours. Only the plant manager was nice to me: we talked about industrial controls and plant maintenance. In every one of those shoot-outs, I was the Jedi Sales Master turning every objection into a point of agreement, deflecting arrows, returning to common ground. That was the second big mistake.

If I had read No-Excuses Management by T. J. Rodgers I would have known that at Cypress every meeting is like that. Managers compete for resources. The company cannot do everything all at once. You make your best case; and everyone else tries to shoot it down. You argue against six people at the same time.

Rodgers earned his master's and doctorate inventing VMOS technology. He worked for AMI and AMD. In his book, he explained his strategies and tactics in coming back to Austin to raid AMD for its best talent. Also, in the book, he outlined the methods by which he always signed every engineer he wanted, and how later he prevented them from leaving.

As a host, T. J. Rodgers was gracious. It was like being with Francisco d'Anconia. I enjoyed every minute of my time with him. But it was pretty clear that I was not the right person for the job.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I don't exactly know what you're not letting through

Brant,

I decided to give the guy a little attention to the messages he sends me backstage due to your prompting, but that was a mistake. So far he's let me know that out of kindness, he will consider allowing me to be dishonest so we can make a deal and move forward.

I didn't bite, but instead told him I am not kind and honest, but apparently he is.

Now he's threatening me.

The guy doesn't get it. I'm not sure he's capable right now.

Frankly, I'm at a point where I don't give a shit. And I certainly don't give a shit about his threats.

I've wasted way too much time on him. Enough.

Michael

[PDS]

Ah lawyer jokes. The profession has earned every one of them, I am afraid.

I used to be bothered by lawyer jokes, but they don't bother me anymore.

David,

I find it hard to consider you a lawyer because you don't act like the behavior lawyer jokes are aimed at.

I have had to use lawyers before, but part of my screening process always involved me asking them if they knew the difference between the law and justice. Most of them, believe it or not, had no idea what I was asking.

I generally chose the lawyers who were the most surprised and clueless, the ones who appeared most corrupt, because I mostly needed sleazy at the time due to sleazy laws and legal conditions of access.

A few times I needed a crusade, so I chose those who understood my question immediately.

I have rarely been disappointed in my choice of counsel.

btw - The best lawyer I ever had is one who kicked my ass to here and Kingdom come on a case involving a ballet I brought to Brazil for a tour that went sour. Long story, but he was the only one who nailed me in that fiasco, and legally, I was in the right. I thought if he was that good, I wanted him for myself. So I hired him. Before I did, when I asked him about the difference between the law and justice, he smiled knowingly and told me not to be silly.

Michael

MSK: great stuff, and thank you for you comments.

Some of the most gratifying times I have been hired were when I already kicked the other company's ass. Those are the best clients to have, believe it or not.

The only thing sweeter for a lawyer is being hired by other lawyers when they have their tail in a crack.

[Brant Gaede]

Ah lawyer jokes. The profession has earned every one of them, I am afraid.

I used to be bothered by lawyer jokes, but they don't bother me anymore.

David,

I find it hard to consider you a lawyer because you don't act like the behavior lawyer jokes are aimed at.

I have had to use lawyers before, but part of my screening process always involved me asking them if they knew the difference between the law and justice. Most of them, believe it or not, had no idea what I was asking.

I generally chose the lawyers who were the most surprised and clueless, the ones who appeared most corrupt, because I mostly needed sleazy at the time due to sleazy laws and legal conditions of access.

A few times I needed a crusade, so I chose those who understood my question immediately.

I have rarely been disappointed in my choice of counsel.

btw - The best lawyer I ever had is one who kicked my ass to here and Kingdom come on a case involving a ballet I brought to Brazil for a tour that went sour. Long story, but he was the only one who nailed me in that fiasco, and legally, I was in the right. I thought if he was that good, I wanted him for myself. So I hired him. Before I did, when I asked him about the difference between the law and justice, he smiled knowingly and told me not to be silly.

Michael

MSK: great stuff, and thank you for you comments.

Some of the most gratifying times I have been hired were when I already kicked the other company's ass. Those are the best clients to have, believe it or not.

The only thing sweeter for a lawyer is being hired by other lawyers when they have their tail in a crack.

Justice! Justice! What is sweeter than justice? Good guys win, bad guys lose!

--Brant

Oh, the humanity!

[syrakusos]

You guys do know that it is impolite to talk about someone in the third person while they are present.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You guys do know that it is impolite to talk about someone in the third person while they are present.

Michael,

He's no longer present.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

I don't exactly know what you're not letting through

Brant,

I decided to give the guy a little attention to the messages he sends me backstage due to your prompting, but that was a mistake. So far he's let me know that out of kindness, he will consider allowing me to be dishonest so we can make a deal and move forward.

I didn't bite, but instead told him I am not kind and honest, but apparently he is.

Now he's threatening me.

The guy doesn't get it. I'm not sure he's capable right now.

Frankly, I'm at a point where I don't give a shit. And I certainly don't give a shit about his threats.

I've wasted way too much time on him. Enough.

Michael

Somehow I missed this when you posted it yesterday. While threats can run from A to Z threats are threats, so while I can't morally evaluate what he said to you I can support your kicking him off your property.

--Brant

I do

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

It was no big threat. He just said he was going to start getting in touch with everyone by private message and tell them about how awful I was.

I thought if he wants to talk smack about me so bad to OL members, let him set up his own site or do it at someone else's site. The Internet is a huge place so he certainly has no lack of where to talk bad about me. There's no reason for me to provide him the resources to pester OL members with his petty grievances, even if a few might not consider it pestering.

I have been going through some lectures by Jordan Belfort (the guy in The Wolf of Wall Street) and he came up with a hilarious metaphor I apply to this dude. Jordan was talking sales, and here on OL we talk ideas, but the concept is the same.

Some people are eagles who fly high, then swoop down for the kill when there is something good to be had.

Others are like ducks who go quack quack quack and waddle around in shit all day.

Michael

[dldelancey]

The reason why there are so few "pure" heroes is The System makes hypocrites of us all from the day we are born. The food we eat is produced with government subsidies. We drive on public roads in cars built according to public safety standards. The military fights wars for us whether we ask it to or not. Our salaries are garnished into social programs like Social Security and Medicare, and they are doled back to us at the end of our lives. This makes it nearly impossible for a pure hero to emerge without being shouted down by the progressive elite as ingrates and frauds.

I wasn't thinking of any of those things when I ruled out the people who kept coming to mind. For instance, the mysticism of my brother's religion is the only thing that exempts him, and that is nothing that is forced upon him by any system (or System). Among my girlfriends I referred to, not one of them is a man-worshipper in the way that Rand described her heroines. Again, that's a state of being that comes from within, not without.

[dldelancey]

PDS,

JTS makes a valid point that you didn't explicitly define what kind of hero you were looking for, although I (and Ellen, I suspect) thought the definition was implied by the fact that you stated a "Randian hero." I suppose your idea of a Randian hero may be different from mine. Also, I didn't pick up on any particular undercurrent in your question as you originally stated it, although now that Marotta has pointed it out, I can kinda see it. Your comment about how we should evaluate the fact that it's difficult to name any Randian hero we know personally is supportive of that. The feeling I have now is that you are making a moral judgement about people who don't surround themselves with Randian heroes. I could be wrong, of course. Either way, personally, I attempt to surround myself with people who are as close to Randian heroes as they can be given the circumstances of real life and the fact that I don't think I would actually enjoy spending a whole lot of time with Dagny Taggert.

All that said, I don't know how my friends and family (or the people I work for) would feel about me listing them by name here. But as I said earlier, these people are the closest I'm going to get to Randian heroes.

[Brant Gaede]

Frank O'Connor was a Randian hero.

--Brant

the Randian hero

go ague it with Ayn Rand

[PDS]

PDS,

JTS makes a valid point that you didn't explicitly define what kind of hero you were looking for, although I (and Ellen, I suspect) thought the definition was implied by the fact that you stated a "Randian hero." I suppose your idea of a Randian hero may be different from mine. Also, I didn't pick up on any particular undercurrent in your question as you originally stated it, although now that Marotta has pointed it out, I can kinda see it. Your comment about how we should evaluate the fact that it's difficult to name any Randian hero we know personally is supportive of that. The feeling I have now is that you are making a moral judgement about people who don't surround themselves with Randian heroes. I could be wrong, of course. Either way, personally, I attempt to surround myself with people who are as close to Randian heroes as they can be given the circumstances of real life and the fact that I don't think I would actually enjoy spending a whole lot of time with Dagny Taggert.

All that said, I don't know how my friends and family (or the people I work for) would feel about me listing them by name here. But as I said earlier, these people are the closest I'm going to get to Randian heroes.

Interesting.

I am not making moral judgments about anybody, and I certainly didn't mean to imply who someone must "surround" themselves with...

Actually, as I have said, I am simply interested/curious as to whether anybody here knows anybody whom they consider to be a Randian hero. That is all. No need to name names, and no need for me to define what or who might be consider such a person. Part of what makes this interesting to me is the lens through which regulars around here might judge who is and isn't such a person. Just as one example, I have learned to respect your comments quite a bit on this forum. You seem very sensible to me. Therefore, your judgment about your brother's religion as a disqualifying attribute is, to repeat myself, interesting. I personally would not use a person's religious beliefs as a disqualifier.

Randian heroes, through my lens, do not need to build skyscrapers or blow up copper mines, nor do they need to have their heads thrown back in exhultation as a sweaty construction worker approaches. It is more a sense of life thing, actually, and "style" is a component to it as well, although that is not precisely the correct word I have in mind.

Since several people have now mentioned it, my view of what constitutes a Randian hero is somebody with strong self-confidence, somebody who does not live by second-hand values, and somebody who is self-made. If you want to throw some icing on the cake, that person is well read, has decent manners, and places a strong emphasis on family.

I know such a person (many actually), but I don't necessarily surround myself with them. They are actually hard to come by. As one example, I have a client who built a business out of the trunk of his car 25 years ago and is now worth $30M plus, and employs over 50 people. He reminds me of Ellis Wyatt. He hired me to try a tough high-stakes case for him. He would not settle the case, because he didn't do anything wrong. The jury was deliberating and a question came back from the jury that made it sound like we might lose. I asked him if he wanted to consder settling before the jury came back. He said "hell no". The jury came back and we actually won. I whispered in his ear while the jury was filing out words to the effect of "you have some big balls". His response: "you're damn right I do." That's a Randian type of hero to me. I have no idea whether he believes in God, predestination, or double-predistination.

Another person is my father-in-law. A classic Southern gentleman, he has a Harvard MBA from 1949 and ran his own business from 1949-2011, when he was forced by his wife's health condition to retire. He made payroll every 2 weeks for over 60 years, and ran his business with 100% integrity. His library is full of at least 1,000 books ranging from Augustine to World War II. His joy in life is now reading 8-10 hours a day. His thirst for knowledge cannot be quenched, and he is 88 years old. He has never voluntarly watched more than an hour of TV in his life. If you make small talk with him he will politely listen. If you discuss military history with him, he will light up like a Christmas tree, chomp on his cigar, and regale you with lessons and stories from history. He is the "mayor" of his assisted living home, and I consider him to be a Randian hero, even though he is a life-long Presbyterian.

I also think our own George Smith is a Randian hero, although I only know him from this forum and his books. Why? Because of his style, not just his writings. He's got big balls too.

These are 3 examples. I will add more as time permits.

[dldelancey]

Thanks for clarifying. Like I said, I didn't originally read any judgement into the question. I let that unpleasant Marotta influence me! (He knows I like him, unpleasantness and all.)

What I did read into the question was that you were looking for examples that would have received Rand's stamp of heroic approval. That's why I disqualified my brother based on his subscription to religious mysticism. Because Rand would not have written a hero with that characteristic.

As for me, my brother's religion disqualifies nothing. One of my earliest memories is of him picking me up out of my baby bed when I cried at night (he was maybe 10 at the time). To this day, I have the same adulation for him as I did back then. For what it's worth, your own definition of a hero fits him perfectly.

[PDS]

Thanks for clarifying. Like I said, I didn't originally read any judgement into the question. I let that unpleasant Marotta influence me! (He knows I like him, unpleasantness and all.)

What I did read into the question was that you were looking for examples that would have received Rand's stamp of heroic approval. That's why I disqualified my brother based on his subscription to religious mysticism. Because Rand would not have written a hero with that characteristic.

As for me, my brother's religion disqualifies nothing. One of my earliest memories is of him picking me up out of my baby bed when I cried at night (he was maybe 10 at the time). To this day, I have the same adulation for him as I did back then. For what it's worth, your own definition of a hero fits him perfectly.

Luckily for all of us, Marotta is only sometimes unpleasant.

[Brant Gaede]

Luckily for all of us, Marotta is only sometimes unpleasant.

Me too.

If we ever match up we could rule OL the galaxy

--Brant

he'll induct and I'll deduct

LOLOLOLOL

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I've always had trouble with this kind of question because the world we live in does not have the same context as the semi-mythological settings that Rand created in her fiction.

(Could the term modernistic mythology work? )

If you want to see a holy mess of defining the essence of her heroes, look at the following Wikipedia article: Randian Hero. You get a total mishmash.

So I think a certain subjective element has to be present to even consider the question seriously. Each of us lives lives that have our own personal contexts as backgrounds.

The question, to me, is like asking what modern men most resemble the heroes John Wayne portrayed in films. Or anything similar. Trying to pin down either-or details in archetypes is tricky business. You will find lots of things that line up and lots that don't. And inconsistencies galore when contexts change.

But let me give it a shot.

In my view, the aspects I resonate with in Randian heroes are individualism, first-hand thinking, leadership based on merit, competence, commitment to producing a creative vision in reality, overcoming strenuous inner struggles by willpower, politeness to strangers as a default, standing up to a crowd of me-too mediocraties, and so on. Yes, reason is there, but not as a disqualifier if not 100% consistent. (Besides, try to explain Roark's love of Dominique and Wynand based on reason. I can come up with other examples.)

I also like the typical American good guy who helps little old ladies across the street and who outsmarts a cunning villain by breaking all the rules, including moral ones if need be, but that is outside the question. I only mention it to provide my own context.

When I look at the world, I often see creative and productive individualists who inspire me, but more often than not, they are deeply religious like Glenn Beck. And I get hooked. I don't resonate with his religion, but the things in him I do resonate with are the same I resonate with in Rand's fictional heroes.

In a weird way, the photo below of August Landmesser makes me resonate in an identical manner. I saw this on a Facebook feed with the caption, "Be this guy," and I got the blind flash of YES!!! like I always do when I first feel this special hero resonance with a person.

Michael

[PDS]

Strong stuff, MSK.

[PDS]

Luckily for all of us, Marotta is only sometimes unpleasant.

Me too.

If we ever match up we could rule OL the galaxy

--Brant

he'll induct and I'll deduct

LOLOLOLOL

You two will make the sound of two hands clapping.

[Brant Gaede]

Ayn Rand was a Randian hero.

--Brant

didn't you know--did she?

[Brant Gaede]

There needs to be a severe differentiation between the Randian hero in fiction and the Randian hero in real life.

--Brant

when you look in the mirror in the morning you don't see anyone but you

[syrakusos]

In a weird way, the photo below of August Landmesser makes me resonate in an identical manner. I saw this on a Facebook feed with the caption, "Be this guy," and I got the blind flash of YES!!! like I always do when I first feel this special hero resonance with a person.

Michael

Thanks! I had no idea. Also, I posted a link to the Wikipedia article about August Landmesser on Galt's Gulch. I note here that Landmesser died in Croatia where Hans Asperger served as a Nazi doctor. Landmesser was probably killed by Serbian communist partisans. The Croatians were pro-German, and supported by the Vatican. Like the Roumanians, the Croatians suffered from a non-German inferiority Aryan complex, so they made up for it by being especially more brutal than even the Germans. By comparison, later, when the KGB had jobs too distasteful even for them, they gave the work to the Bulgarians.

I guess by that standard, Canadians are the people we wish we were.

[BaalChatzaf]

I guess by that standard, Canadians are the people we wish we were.

Canada is the kinder, gentler America

Ba'al Chatzaf

[anthony]

There needs to be a severe differentiation between the Randian hero in fiction and the Randian hero in real life.

--Brant

Exactly. Her fictional hero is a *concept*, created from concretes she held in her conscious mind. ("...a selective re-creation of reality...")

The reader then derives the reality from the concept to form the concretes once more. Back and forth, like induction and deduction. Like a painter who paints from chosen aspects of reality, filtered through his personal views of existence - necessitating the viewer to track-back the process, from concrete paint and picture, to the artist's view.

I think right there is why Romanticism is badly misunderstood or under-appreciated, and where the 'literalism' (sometimes perceived by Objectivists in her novels) comes from.

[Selene]

I note here that Landmesser died in Croatia where Hans Asperger served as a Nazi doctor. Landmesser was probably killed by Serbian communist partisans. The Croatians were pro-German, and supported by the Vatican. Like the Roumanians, the Croatians suffered from a non-German inferiority Aryan complex, so they made up for it by being especially more brutal than even the Germans. By comparison, later, when the KGB had jobs too distasteful even for them, they gave the work to the Bulgarians.

Any sources for this Mike?

Would appreciate any links.

[Derek McGowan]

Had a conversation to day that may take the question of this thread in a different direction.

So the Randian heroes are not portrayed as simply people with strong individualistic tendencies and creative ideas but (at least in Atlas Shrugged) people who can/do move the world, meaning that they can restart it if/when it goes to hell.

So I would rephrase the question as, Do you know of any people, you don't have to know them personally, just be aware of them) that you can say you would take on the Ark if 90% of the population died for whatever reason. These wouldn't necessarily be people that you like or could have a profound conversation with, but people with real world skills needed to rebuild from the ground up, the same as the individuals in the gulch were able to take what they were presented with and create a world that lessers would be envious of