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A person calling herself Cathy O'Connor Dupler is posting on SOLO here.

Random highlight: "My aunt said that Frank and Nick would help Ayn write for days. They would help her with ideas, pronunciation and proper sentence structure. Ayn would second guess herself and didn't have confidence in her writings, and that's what my uncle Frank and Uncle Nick gave her, was confidence, in her views, in her writing, and in her life...then they would stand back and watch her fly."

J

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I find her to be credible, but her info about Ayn and Frank is not primary source. Well worth reading if you're interested in this type of material. She's probably in her mid-fifties. Her father was 56 when she was born. If Frank's younger brother this adds up. Frank was about 69 or 70 when I first saw him at NBI in 1968. I find there to be too much accurate detail to be fakery; who would bother?

--Brant

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You never know if someone is who they claim to be online, but, yeah, this looks like it's probably legit. It'll be interesting to see what else she has to say. Was Frank not only accepting of Ayn's affair, but turned on by it, as certain people have suggested?

J

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I wonder if she will ever learn or know how much Barbara loved Frank.

I don't know how much Barbara cried when Frank passed, but knowing her, it was probably buckets of tears, even from a distance.

The story she will get from those folks is that Barbara was hell-bent in The Passion of Ayn Rand on smearing Frank as a mealticket or "to save her own reputation" or something equally stupid.

Did anyone notice? She said she has not read a book Rand published.

Somehow, I see the potential for disharmony over there. It's like walking into a fundamentalist church, saying (with credibility) that you are a direct descendent of one of the Apostles, but have never read the Bible and, from your demeanor, hint that you never intend to.

This is going to be fun to watch.

:)

Anyway, it's cool to read this young lady's comments. The view from inside the family is as charming as all get out. And she seems like a really good person.

Michael

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You never know if someone is who they claim to be online, but, yeah, this looks like it's probably legit. It'll be interesting to see what else she has to say. Was Frank not only accepting of Ayn's affair, but turned on by it, as certain people have suggested?

J

I don't see how any of those relatives would have known anything about the affair. It seems none of the principals and their spouses said anything until Barbara's bio in 1986.

--Brant

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You never know if someone is who they claim to be online, but, yeah, this looks like it's probably legit. It'll be interesting to see what else she has to say. Was Frank not only accepting of Ayn's affair, but turned on by it, as certain people have suggested?

J

I don't see how any of those relatives would have known anything about the affair. It seems none of the principals and their spouses said anything until Barbara's bio in 1986.

--Brant

Apparently Frank told his relatives. His niece writes, "My Aunt said of Ayn's affair...men do it all the time...but it becomes a big deal when a women does it. I was confused when I heard this, and asked my aunt if Aunt Ayn still loves Uncle Frank? She said Ayn loved Frank with all her heart, but there was one thing he couldn't offer her, and that was variety lol."

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Did anyone notice? She said she has not read a book Rand published.

I thought that that was a bit odd. If I had a famous novelist in my family, especially a controversial one, I'd be curious enough to read at least one of her novels.

J

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Did anyone notice? She said she has not read a book Rand published.

I thought that that was a bit odd. If I had a famous novelist in my family, especially a controversial one, I'd be curious enough to read at least one of her novels.

J

She never said she hadn't started to read them.

She should not have disclosed her location. Neil Parille will be on her like white on rice.

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One detail Cathy mentioned is very poignant. Frank and his brother were treated cruelly by their stepmother and essentially forced out of their home. This must have struck a strong chord with Rand, considering her early traumas, and formed part of the deep bond between them.

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Did anyone notice? She said she has not read a book Rand published.

I thought that that was a bit odd. If I had a famous novelist in my family, especially a controversial one, I'd be curious enough to read at least one of her novels.

J

She never said she hadn't started to read them.

She should not have disclosed her location. Neil Parille will be on her like white on rice.

Daunce: you're pretty darned funny sometimes.

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David,

I just tidied up some of Carol's formating in her post and yours so it will make sense to the reader.

(I got her back. Not always because she's such a prolific format infringer, but hell, it comes with the territory with her. :smile: )

Michael

Thanks Michael, I do not know what I do wrong, it is my computer but I will soon get a new one you will be glad to hear. It seems to happen when I try to edit but nothing happens so I have to use caps instead of italics.
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More today from Cathy O'Connor Dupler on SOLO:

"I may not have known much about their life in later years, but in their early years I did hear that Aunt Alice was attracted to my Uncle Frank because he was the type of man that she envisioned as the hero's in her books. I read Branden's theory of their marriage was a fraud from the beginning based on this. I had to laugh about that! In the beginning, we all are attracted to someone for different reasons, but you don't stay married for fifty years because of just the physical attraction. As far as uncle Franks intellect, I have to say, he was smart enough to marry Alice! I don't believe Aunt Alice said that there wasn't any intelligent conversations between her and Uncle Frank. I think Branden wanted to write a book and make it interesting and poor Frank was her scapegoat."

It's been many, many years since I've read Branden's book, but I don't remember him expressing the view that the O'Connor's marriage was a fraud, let alone from its beginning. Have I forgotten that much about Branden's views, or has Cathy gotten it wrong?

J

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Jonathan,

I would have to look up the quotes, but going on memory, I am certain Barbara portrayed Frank as an introvert who was not interested in pursuing intellectual ideas in the same manner Ayn was. I don't recall Barbara ever saying that Frank disliked ideas, didn't understand them, or was stupid or anything like that. But when filtered through the Valliant mythology, this is interpreted to mean that Barbara said Frank never discussed anything intelligent with Ayn.

Barbara says Ayn was attracted to Frank because of his looks and projected her hero-worship on him (this hero-worship which later became manifest as her fictional heroes). In the Valliant mythology, this is interpreted as Barbara calling their marriage a fraud.

And on and on it goes.

Think of the way they discuss politics on MSNBC. That's the same system. People with this kind of mentality do not know how to think about anything without presupposing victimization as the context. Victimization is their fundamental axiomatic concept. It's like an on-off switch, and what's worse, it's on all the time--as a cybernetic system.*

It looks like the lady is on a kick to believe the Valliant victimization myths, probably because that set of myths paints her uncle in a very favorable light. (I believe Frank should be painted in a favorable light, too--I just like that light to illuminate reality, not mythology. And especially not phony victimization propaganda.)

Michael



* I've described cybernetic systems before:

In a cybernetic system, there is a programmed goal, deflection sensors and a course-correction mechanism.

For instance, a thermostat in a house is a cybernetic system. You program it for xxx degrees. Then someone opens the door, lets the cold air in, the temperature drops, the sensors detect the deflection, then the course-correction mechanism kicks in and the heater turns on until the temperature is xxx degrees again, at which time the heater turns off. That's a cybernetic system.

A mental cybernetic system works like this, also. I once read a Marxist complain about a Jehovah's Witness, "You can win the argument, but still not change his mind." When the JW admits he loses the argument, he's sincere, but that's going off course for a bit. Soon he's back on track. (The Marxist didn't see how he is the same, but that's another question.)

The "Rand-bash as premise" mind works just like this (as does the O-fundy mind). You can interact with it up to a point and actually discuss the meat of some ideas. You can get it out of its comfort zone. But soon the deflection will be noticed by its subconscious sensors and a course-correction mechanism will kick in. Most of the time, this is manifest by snarky conclusions about Objectivists, Rand, Founding Fathers, capitalism, etc., etc, etc.

You can be discussing the intricacies credit default swaps or biochemistry or arcane mythology and it will eventually come back to: "This proves Rand and Objectivists are deluded." Diiiiiing. Bash.


I was discussing Rand-bashing in that quote, but this goes for victimization, too. If a person becomes set on portraying an event or a person according to the victimization narrative, and this is preprogrammed in his brain as a cybernetic system, he or she will see everything in the world as a story of Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf.

Everything. Even mundane things like going to the grocery store.

One thing I did not mention is that the course of such a cybernetic system travels through truth and falsehood equally well. In other words, if correcting a fact sets the system back on course, that will be used. If a lie sets the system back on course, that, too, will be used. The important thing is for the scapegoated villain to be vile and the defended one to be victimized by the villain in any and all circumstances.

Once a person is committed to using a cybernetic system for a brain (like, say, Valliant), discussion can get really weird and frustrating. It's not like it was only in O-Land with him, either. That dude has not been able to communicate coherently at places like Wikipedia or the Richard Dawkins forum. And it's all on record.

People get frustrated with him since they believe his standard is intelligent rational conversation based on truth when it really is a cybernetic system--i.e., the preprogram is Ayn and Frank were victimized by the Brandens and if a fact or lie leads there, it is valid, if the fact or lie does not lead there, it is not valid, So, after things stop making sense as intelligent conversation, and not being in the habit of looking at discussions through a cybernetic lens (when you do that, Valliant actually comes off as consistent and not as stupid as he otherwise appears), they have pushed him away as some kind of loon.

There are probably other places where this has happened, too, but I have not kept up on his comings and goings.

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More today from Cathy O'Connor Dupler on SOLO:

"I may not have known much about their life in later years, but in their early years I did hear that Aunt Alice was attracted to my Uncle Frank because he was the type of man that she envisioned as the hero's in her books. I read Branden's theory of their marriage was a fraud from the beginning based on this. I had to laugh about that! In the beginning, we all are attracted to someone for different reasons, but you don't stay married for fifty years because of just the physical attraction. As far as uncle Franks intellect, I have to say, he was smart enough to marry Alice! I don't believe Aunt Alice said that there wasn't any intelligent conversations between her and Uncle Frank. I think Branden wanted to write a book and make it interesting and poor Frank was her scapegoat."

It's been many, many years since I've read Branden's book, but I don't remember him expressing the view that the O'Connor's marriage was a fraud, let alone from its beginning. Have I forgotten that much about Branden's views, or has Cathy gotten it wrong?

J

Basically wrong. Doesn't much matter, though, for she's coming at the situation just recently from left field.

--Brant

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You never know if someone is who they claim to be online, but, yeah, this looks like it's probably legit. It'll be interesting to see what else she has to say. Was Frank not only accepting of Ayn's affair, but turned on by it, as certain people have suggested?

J

The person who "suggested" that was Ayn Rand, according to Nathaniel's report in his memoir.

"He finds it an inspiration," off the top, is what I remember Nathaniel reporting as Rand's report of Frank's attitude toward the affair.

Ellan

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Doesn't much matter, though, for she's coming at the situation just recently from left field.

Brant,

I just read Ms. Dupler (Cathy O'Connor) say that she was put up for adoption at 13 due to her family troubles, so she only recently learned that her Aunt Alice was Ayn Rand. She never knew this for years. She learned about it on Ancestry.com.

There's a hell of a good story in this, one that I believe will be worth telling later in a more elaborated way (maybe even using the hero's journey story frame). The promise of good drama is there.

But time first has to have it's say some more.

I know I would not want to be that lady's email box right now. :)

I do hope she has fun with the crap that is coming down the pipe. I would hate to see her heart get broken by it.

Michael

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I have to admit... there's something not sitting right with me about this.

I hope I'm not being overly-skeptical, but my bullshit detector beeped a couple times while reading some of her comments. It beeped faintly, but it did beep.

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A few comments:

1. Did Rand ever call herself "Alice"?

2. Did Rand or Frank ever talk about the affair with anyone?

3. Why, of all places, post this on one of my SOLO entries?

4. She knew "Aunt Alice" was a writer but didn't inquire as to the name she published under?

-Neil Parille

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I have to admit... there's something not sitting right with me about this.

I hope I'm not being overly-skeptical, but my bullshit detector beeped a couple times while reading some of her comments. It beeped faintly, but it did beep.

Well, my bullshit detector went at least into "Yellow."

To me, the story is too contrived, with just enough details to make it possible, but not enough to get it out of the improbable.

So, where exactly, has this lady been in the last 50 years? :rolleyes: One would have had to make a determined effort to avoid anything dealing with political or literary issues (or fiction) not to have heard of Ayn Rand. Her pictures have appeared in practically every article (I'm talking about the popular media, MSM, etc.) published about her or her books. So to avoid all these pictures (not to mention personal appearances on popular TV shows such as Donahue and Johnny Carson) and not recognizing " That's Aunt Alice," strains credulity to its breaking point. Her account of her father "protecting" her from her crazy aunt, and her never making any attempt to find out what is so crazy about her is not credible. And never went to visit her in New York?

I want a DNA test :unsure: ...probably not possible (unless some physical remains of the deceased have been preserved somewhere......Leonard??), but I want it, anyway. .Barring that, she has to get corroborating testimony from other relatives or from Rand's Inner Circle, or her personal friends, attesting to her story. In writing, under oath.. (Of course on Solo, anything is allowed,...almost).

I recall reading that there was some lady who was a psychic (normally, I would preface that self-description with, "claimed to be," but with such a story perhaps skepticism must be shelved) that was "channeling" Ayn Rand, and would recount these "chats," either online or in some publication. Perhaps we could find her or have her let out :wacko: , so that she could ask Ayn about all this.

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Well, the quality of her writing isn't reflective of someone who does much reading. Rand didn't have to call herself "Alice" nor was it said she did. Regardless of anything I can think of, Cathy's stories aren't going anywhere or will do much and she'll either run out of material and stop posting or run out of material and keep posting--what?--and expose herself more to as whoever/whatever she is. The biggie is why anyone would do this who wasn't actually Frank's niece? Think of the effort needed to concoct all this using the extant public information. As for SOLO rather than say here? If it's a scam it wouldn't have much shelf life. Too many questions from too many people, including you (Neil) most of all. So far, the whole thing is light, diversionary, interesting fun for me putting the pieces together seeing how well they fit. Cathy does need more data about "Alice" and the few times she saw her to re-enforce her posts so far. You'd think she would have mentioned ...? Not saying it here, please don't guess; please don't corrupt the public discourse as to what she will post by possibly giving her ideas.

--Brant

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I have to admit... there's something not sitting right with me about this.

I hope I'm not being overly-skeptical, but my bullshit detector beeped a couple times while reading some of her comments. It beeped faintly, but it did beep.

Well, my bullshit detector went at least into "Yellow."

To me, the story is too contrived, with just enough details to make it possible, but not enough to get it out of the improbable.

So, where exactly, has this lady been in the last 50 years? :rolleyes: One would have had to make a determined effort to avoid anything dealing with politicalor literary issues (or fiction) not to have heard of Ayn Rand. Her pictures have appeared in practically every article (I'm talking about the popular media, MSM, etc.) published about her or her books. So to avoid all these pictures (not to mention personal appearances on popular TV shows such as Donahue and Johnny Carson) and not recognizing " That's Aunt Alice," strains credulity to its breaking point. Her account of her father "protecting" her from her crazy aunt, and her never making any attempt to find out what is so crazy about her is not credible.

I want a DNA test :unsure: ...probably not possible (unless some physical remains of the deceased have been preserved somewhere......Leonard??), but I want it, anyway. .Barring that, she has to get corrorating testimony from other relatives or from Rand's Inner Circle, or her personal friends, attesting to her story. In writing, under oath..

I recall reading that there was some lady who was a psychic (normally, I would preface that self-description with, "claimed to be," but with such a story perhaps skepticism must be shelved) that was "channeling" Ayn Rand, and would recount these "chats," either online or in some publication. Perhaps we could find her or have her let out :wacko: , so that she could ask Ayn about all this.

Well, it seems she wasn't even a teenager when Rand was on Carson in 1967.

--Brant

my enjoyment factor is going up, up, up

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I don’t know that I’d set the bar of evidence quite so high as you Jerry, but I’ll tell you what I’m having trouble with…

The fact that she keeps calling Ayn Rand “Aunt Alice” to a group of people that she is fully aware know the lady as Ayn Rand. Also, the fact that she keeps calling FO’C “Uncle Frank”. That’s one.

Now, I’ve never been too close to my family, but I stopped calling my uncles and aunts “Uncle Rick” and “Aunt Mel” a long time ago. I’m only 40 – this lady is claiming to be a bit older than that.

I don’t honestly know anyone who does that at that age. I’m not saying no one does, but… she came out and said “they were my aunt and uncle”. Why the need to continually re-emphasize it? That’s two.

Also, the fact that no one has ever heard of her. That’s three.

Add to this the idea that she’s never been curious enough to read a word that her famous aunt has written… yet she shows up at SOLO and starts posting?

I don’t know… my bullshit detector is rattling louder and louder the more I think about it. I'm simply not prepared to take this person at their word that they are who they say they are.

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