Help with Depression

[anthony]

I am no expert, right? But my thought is this is very dangerous.

The idea - surely - is to emerge from this WHOLE, not disintegrated.

How do you do that without eliminating the contradictions in your psyche? "I want to live" versus "I'm not worthy of living". One has to go. When you sink further into the depression, the second becomes increasingly more dominant, until it eliminates the first entirely. The psyche is attempting to resolve the contradiction, with or without your conscious involvement.

Andre,

This all sounds 'pat', and rationalized compared to my own experiences.

(My personal, long, but mild depression - and the severe one of my mother, and a girl-friend).

Seldom, or never, for instance, did I detect a "not worthy of living" aspect - or, even a "I want to live", one. I think depression predates all that.

Essentially, it was about being too sunken and drained to carry out normal living.

I think you are trying to make something non-volitional, volitional.

(And btw, there will follow feelings of inefficacy - one's self-esteem will suffer.)

Tony

[theandresanchez]

(My personal, long, but mild depression - and the severe one of my mother, and a girl-friend).

What was the result of your treatment (and theirs)?

[Brant Gaede]

I'm not even saying a chemical imbalance isn't the primary cause of a particular depression as opposed to the repression of anger, but such repression is grossly under-rated and not generally well understood.

I was at a "bipolar anonymous" (so to speak) meeting and this guy spoke about restraining himself when threatened to avoid a manic crisis, and then falling into depression. Thinking back, I have had similar experiences. This may have something to do with a subconscious belief that you are not worth defending, thus are worthless, and should step aside so others can live. The belief gets reinforced by congruent behavior on your part (repression of anger). Maybe, and this is just a random thought that came to me, the way out of depression is to focus on the hatred of, and de-identification from, the parts of you that keep you from moving forward. They are not you, they are just bugs in your head harming you. Squash the bugs. Thoughts?

No one should think I'm addressing bi-polar, something I have never experienced or had to deal with. I am not a psychologist or a doctor and only extrapolate out of my own life.

--Brant

[caroljane]

I am no expert, right? But my thought is this is very dangerous.

The idea - surely - is to emerge from this WHOLE, not disintegrated.

How do you do that without eliminating the contradictions in your psyche? "I want to live" versus "I'm not worthy of living". One has to go. When you sink further into the depression, the second becomes increasingly more dominant, until it eliminates the first entirely. The psyche is attempting to resolve the contradiction, with or without your conscious involvement.

Andre,

This all sounds 'pat', and rationalized compared to my own experiences.

(My personal, long, but mild depression - and the severe one of my mother, and a girl-friend).

Seldom, or never, for instance, did I detect a "not worthy of living" aspect - or, even a "I want to live", one. I think depression predates all that.

Essentially, it was about being too sunken and drained to carry out normal living.

I think you are trying to make something non-volitional, volitional.

(And btw, there will follow feelings of inefficacy - one's self-esteem will suffer.)

Tony

Your observations are astute. The feelings of self-hatred and unworthiness are effects, symptoms of the disordered workings of the depressive brain. In a person prone to it, it arises regardless of situation - at the height of personal happiness and professional success, for example. The life skills are lost, and normal life becomes as you say, unlivable.

Situational depression, reacting to life events, does wear off-- this seems to be what Brant experienced. Most severe biologically-based depression presents first in the late teens or early twenties, and if untreated will recur.

And everybody practices self-help, I think, a customized version of CT and positive thinking, whether we are aware of it or not.

[Brant Gaede]

Your observations are astute. The feelings of self-hatred and unworthiness are effects, symptoms of the disordered workings of the depressive brain. In a person prone to it, it arises regardless of situation - at the height of personal happiness and professional success, for example. The life skills are lost, and normal life becomes as you say, unlivable.

Situational depression, reacting to life events, does wear off-- this seems to be what Brant experienced. Most severe biologically-based depression presents first in the late teens or early twenties, and if untreated will recur.

And everybody practices self-help, I think, a customized version of CT and positive thinking, whether we are aware of it or not.

I don't think "biologically-based depression" is anything but a working assumption. Medicine either works or not but is not evidence of what the depressive base really is if it does. It may be a chicken or the egg situation. I do know that there are some depressions of order of magnitude greater than anything I ever went through and some women may have their own special cases perhaps apart from what a man could experience.

--Brant

[caroljane]

I don't think "biologically-based depression" is anything but a working assumption. Medicine either works or not but is not evidence of what the depressive base really is if it does. It may be a chicken or the egg situation. I do know that there are some depressions of order of magnitude greater than anything I ever went through and some women may have their own special cases perhaps apart from what a man could experience.

--Brant

Yes, a working assumption is what it is. The last I read, it was not known exactly why or how antidepressant meds work, although it is known that they do in abundance. Family history of depression is considered to be a strong indicator of predisposition, but I'm not aware that there's been absolute proof of any genetic base.

As to gender, the only instance I can think of is postpartum depression which obviously only women can experience. This seems to me to argue for the biological-based theory.

[Selene]

Web MD link on helping a friend with depression

I get different e-mails daily from different areas that I am interested in, medicine being one of them.

This was in today's e-mail - hope it helps and is informative for all.

Adam

[Dennis Hardin]

A word of caution: What Not to Do

Enabling behavior

In the true sense of the word, to enable is to supply with the means, knowledge, or opportunity to be or do something -- to make feasible or possible.

In its true form, then, Enabling behavior means something positive. It's our natural instinct to reach out and help someone we love when they are down or having problems.

However, when we apply it to certain problems in living - addiction, chronic financial trouble, codependency, certain forms of chronic depression -- enabling behaviors have the reverse effect of what is intended.

Examples:

Repeatedly bailing them out - of jail, financial problems, other "tight spots" they get themselves into

Giving them "one more chance" - ...then another...and another

Ignoring the problem - because they get defensive when you bring it up or your hope that it will magically go away

Joining them in blaming others - for their own feelings, problems, and misfortunes

Accepting their justifications, excuses and rationalizations - "I'm destroying myself with alcohol because I'm depressed".

Avoiding problems - keeping the peace, believing a lack of conflict will help

Doing for them what they should be able to do for themselves

Softening or removing the natural consequences of the problem behavior

Repeatedly coming to the "Rescue"

Sometimes we may have the best intentions—with disastrous consequences.

[Xray]

It looks like he just started taking the medication yesterday because on July 21 he still replied to my question in the negative:

Yes. It sat in my bag for a few days after being bought as I have been feeling relatively well (I would never have asked for help here while in a deep state of depression). The doctor said they were a hyper-conservative medication/dose until he could figure out the proper treatment and that they wouldn't have a great, or immediate, impact. Considering their price tag and claimed effect, I wasn't anxious to start taking them. But I figured, "fuck it, just try it".

I was at a "bipolar anonymous" (so to speak) meeting and this guy spoke about restraining himself when threatened to avoid a manic crisis, and then falling into depression. Thinking back, I have had similar experiences. This may have something to do with a subconscious belief that you are not worth defending, thus are worthless, and should step aside so others can live. The belief gets reinforced by congruent behavior on your part (repression of anger). Maybe, and this is just a random thought that came to me, the way out of depression is to focus on the hatred of, and de-identification from, the parts of you that keep you from moving forward. They are not you, they are just bugs in your head harming you. Squash the bugs. Thoughts?

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

[theandresanchez]

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

Why?

[Brant Gaede]

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

Why?

Why did you start this thread?

--Brant

[theandresanchez]

I want to make a simple, clear question to those of you who have suffered from depression and received treatment from a doctor. What were the results of this treatment?

[theandresanchez]

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

Why?

Why did you start this thread?

--Brant

I have not received the diagnosis, but the doctor spent less than an hour with me and the issue did not come up. This may have been a weakness on his part. The meeting I mentioned is for people suffering from any type of depression, it just so happens that the vast majority has been diagnosed as bipolar.

[Selene]

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

Why?

[anthony]

I want to make a simple, clear question to those of you who have suffered from depression and received treatment from a doctor. What were the results of this treatment?

The one person I was familiar with who did seek treatment is now living what seems a happy, married life - for all I know she still takes her meds.

Not to go her route, almost guarantees a barely tolerable existence for anyone severely depressed.

As layman, I look at it this way: there's what Carol calls "situational" depression, and then neurological depression. If you have the second, you've certainly got the first.

The situational pertains to how one handles oneself with reality - cognition and emotions, etc., and therefore is largely under one's power, or self-determined, with the assistance of CBT.

But until the neurological condition is stabilized, you don't have a snowball's hope in hell of addressing the other one.

What will commonly happen in this case is an endless bouncing between the poles of extreme self-pity, and "get a grip on yourself, you fool" self-disgust.

That's as far as my knowledge and exerience allow me to go.

Tony

[caroljane]

II have had three bouts of major depression, with medical treatment for the second two.

The second time I was 28, happily married for two years and newly promoted in a job I liked and was good at. It just pounced on me. After I had quit my job, and become unable to carry out the basic functions of normal life without enormous effort, I went to the doctor. He gave me meds (they were tricyclics of some kind) and I recovered within about 6 weeks, although it seemed much longer.

The third and last time was in my early forties, now still happily married with two kids, and in the midst of a victorious union battle. This was the most severe as I had a psychotic break and became delusional, having lost the ability to sleep. I got medical help and on meds I saned up within three days, and was back to my normal (though feeling very foolish) within two weeks. I was prescribed antidepressants "as needed" after that. Usually they're not needed. That was nearly twenty years ago.

I was never hospitalized and have never had any form of formal therapy.

The first time I was 21, and was never diagnosed or treated, and in terms of emotional suffering was by far the worst. It is from that I am reminded of the "broken leg" analogy the doctor told me eight years later.

[Xray]

Andre,

have you been diagnosed with bipolar disorder by the doctor who is currently treating you?

Why?

I assume by "Why" you mean why I have asked you this question.

Well, a precise diagnosis is of crucial importance. If, for example, you see a doctor because you feel pain in your leg, you want an exact diagnosis. The same goes for depression.

At the begining, I had the impression that you might be bipolar and currently in an 'activity' phase, but then I just don't know enough about bipolar disorders, so I kept my speculations to myself, only made some indirect hints to which you did not react.

But after you posted about having attended what you described as a "bipolar anonymous" meeting, I thought I'd ask you directly about it.

I have not received the diagnosis, but the doctor spent less than an hour with me and the issue did not come up. This may have been a weakness on his part.

Insist on getting a specific diagnosis.

The meeting I mentioned is for people suffering from any type of depression, it just so happens that the vast majority has been diagnosed as bipolar.

Thanks for clarifying.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Xray

[theandresanchez]

I assume by "Why" you mean why I have asked you this question.

Well, a precise diagnosis is of crucial importance. If, for example, you see a doctor because you feel pain in your leg, you want an exact diagnosis. The same goes for depression.

At the begining, I had the impression that you might be bipolar and currently in an 'activity' phase, but then I just don't know enough about bipolar disorders, so I kept my speculations to myself, only made some indirect hints to which you did not react.

But after you posted about having attended what you described as a "bipolar anonymous" meeting, I thought I'd ask you directly about it.

I was simply wondering if the distinction between a unipolar and a bipolar meant anything to you (if you had knowledge specific to bipolars).

[theandresanchez]

I can't say for sure that this is an effect of the meds, but it does seem to be. I've had some unusual nights. I find my mind very awake, sometimes in the middle of the night and sometimes simply in the morning before rising. Not awake to the point of having to get up, often I'm still drifting near a dream state, but without mental lethargy. To be clear, this is very unusual. This has allowed me to experience the buzzing sound that signals the beginning of entry into a vivid lucid dream state a couple mornings ago and has resulted in me managing to remember some pretty weird dreams (the key point here is being able to remember them, not their weirdness). Last night I dreamt that there was a book written by Chuck Noris involving advanced psychology, something about it being magical too. Won't bother anyone with the details of my dreams, just thought that was particularly funny. I had to look him up on google, as I didn't remember who he was, beyond the fact that he was an actor.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Andre

[Brant Gaede]

This is for you, Andre.

http://youtu.be/Cj6ho1-G6tw

[theandresanchez]

This is for you, Andre.

http://youtu.be/Cj6ho1-G6tw

That''s really cool, thanks.

[Xray]

My own experiance has show me that two things help with depression:

1. Being around friends and loved ones.

Its harder to be depressed when you're around people and interacting with them. Playing games helps more when there are people around. Going into a dark basement and playing games by yourself is a recipe for more depression.

2. This song, I keep it on my iPod and use it as a pick-me-up when necessary. If that fails, I sing it, often to people who are depressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0

One of the many hilarious scenes in that movie.

And how do the people who are depressed react to it?

[theandresanchez]

Psychiatry is nothing but a cult, as scientific and rational as scientology.

Because I didn't respond to the anti-depressives, the "doctor" decided to come up with a new diagnosis: "Schizoaffective disorder".

This is the World Health Organization summary description:

"Episodic disorders in which both affective and schizophrenic symptoms are prominent but which do not justify a diagnosis of either schizophrenia or depressive or manic episodes. Other conditions in which affective symptoms are superimposed on a pre-existing schizophrenic illness, or co-exist or alternate with persistent delusional disorders of other kinds, are classified under F20-F29. Mood-incongruent psychotic symptoms in affective disorders do not justify a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder."

Yea, okay, no. I'm now going to completely ignore anything anybody in the "mental health" industry ever tells me. I'll cure my depression myself.

[theandresanchez]

I suggest reading the chapter on Death Anxiety in Nathaniel Branden’s book, Honoring the Self. You might find that helpful. He provides several sentence stems which might give you some valuable insight.

I found the book, but, and I don't mean to complain, I did not find the chapter at all insightful or helpful. It states the obvious without giving any helpful advice. Branden himself admits in the chapter his inability to deal with this, his automatic evasion. I like most of Branden's work, but I think this is a giant hole that everyone would just rather evade and build their theories around, and Branden seems to be no exception.

[Xray]

Psychiatry is nothing but a cult, as scientific and rational as scientology.

Because I didn't respond to the anti-depressives, the "doctor" decided to come up with a new diagnosis: "Schizoaffective disorder".

You felt no effect at all?

According to your own statements, it's been a mere 16 days since you started taking the medication.

Regarding the diagnosis: how renowned in his field is the doctor who is treating you? Have you considered getting a second medical opinion?

Edited August 4, 2011 by Xray