Help with Depression

[Selene]

Who is close to you that you trust?

Andre:

Thank you so much for answering my questions.

In terms of "trust," I did not mean to confine it to any group. If I remember correctly, you explained that your family has, as most families, their own issues regarding mental "health."

Therefore, I was not delimiting your answer as to "who is close to you that you trust" to "family."

Actually, I phrased the question poorly. Do you have someone, or several someones, that you trust?

As an aside, your an age being 25 is not a surprise to me. There has been significant findings over the last decade that leads me to believe that your brain is just coming to a close to final formation, or maturity in a physical, neuro-linguistic manner.

Therefore, I am not as concerned about your "confusion" about "life issues." However, the physical manifestations of depression that you explain are certainly real. As Kat just pointed out, depression, from mild to debilitating, is more of a norm than the "public myth world" projects.

I am fortunately, or unfortunately, familiar with acute agoraphobia, with panic anxiety, DSM 321.____, having lived with a person who has that struggle. I cannot stress enough your being active in a support group.

I was rather exited by your answer regarding your work, including your trading account. Clearly, you are motivated and you can make healthy intelligent choices. These are significant positives for you to focus on as your brain matures and hopefully receives a benefit from the medicinal support you are taking. I also highly reccommend a holistic approach with supplements, etc.

I would highly reccommend tai chi for its physical, mental and emotional centering that we all need.

Still would like to know that you have a trust person, or persons, as that makes all the difference when things get rough.

Adam

still on your side

[caroljane]

Kat and Andre have both shown poignantly one of the saddest effects of severe depression-- lost productivity. Worldwide, it must be immense and incalculable.

[caroljane]

 

The American idiom is "the shoe is on the other foot."

Which idiom does one use if one wants to say "It's exactly the other way round."?

I guess we go barefoot and say "the reverse is true."

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Turnabout is fair play.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

(The following only works if you say it menacingly--or with feigned sweetness when you know the kaboom is coming): "Now it's your turn."

There's a ton of 'em.

I mean, you gotta' turn the tables sometime and let folks have a taste of their own medicine.

Michael

[algernonsidney]

You mostly get what you give in life. That generally holds true even with good people....

This ain't like what you went through with the Randroids, either. You ran into some serious cult mentality issues. You won't find that here--not in reality--no matter how much the call to repeat the pain clamors.

I don't know exactly who a lot of them are. I can tell you that Don Heath is one person I will never forgive.

[caroljane]

Btw Andre, you live in Brazil but are a fluent English speaker , who left school at 13-- as a language teacher I am curious about this!

[william.scherk]

Kat and Andre have both shown poignantly one of the saddest effects of severe depression-- lost productivity. Worldwide, it must be immense and incalculable.

I cannot remember right now how many times I complained about depression in myself and my family here at OL. Probably not once, but perhaps backstage. I would be way too wary of jeering to dig up my mental yard and basement for spectators, perhaps. But count me in as one of those who seems to have budded off a tree of established dark depressive sap. I have been sapped by this thing, and I struggle manfully to resist it.

Andre, do keep in touch with those you feel you can trust whom you met here: but maybe travailing over mental woes on a forum is too fraught with pitfalls. I would say, having walked the track along with you and Kat, that your best ally (beside yourself) is the doctor and his professional, evidence/science-based suggestions, at your pace and with your full, actively-informed participation. Collaborate with him on your mental health, and wisely ignore ignorance and malice.

2 cents from a daemon in Vancouver . . .

Edited July 25, 2011 by william.scherk

[caroljane]

Kat and Andre have both shown poignantly one of the saddest effects of severe depression-- lost productivity. Worldwide, it must be immense and incalculable.

I cannot remember right now how many times I complained about depression in myself and my family here at OL. Probably not once, but perhaps backstage. I would be way too wary of jeering to dig up my mental yard and basement for spectators, perhaps. But count me in as one of those who seems to have budded off a tree of established dark depressive sap. I have been sapped by this thing, and I struggle manfully to resist it.

Andre, do keep in touch with those you feel you can trust whom you met here: but maybe travailing over mental woes on a forum is too fraught with pitfalls. I would say, having walked the track along with you and Kat, that your best ally (beside yourself) is the doctor and his professional, evidence/science-based suggestions, at your pace and with your full, actively-informed participation. Collaborate with him on your mental health, and wisely ignore ignorance and malice.

2 cents from a daemon in Vancouver . . .

I cannot find anywhere you have complained, about anything. The urge to compare experiences (did you ever go psychotic? Whoa, did you ever forget to go left or right in a crowd/how to buy more than 2 things in a store?)how to go into a store when you know absolutely that you don't deserve to buy anything?)

this seems to be more absent in depressives --- maybe it just seems too commonplace, amongst us, to comment on.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I don't know exactly who a lot of them are. I can tell you that Don Heath is one person I will never forgive.

Chris,

I'm sorry you suffered as you did.

I tried to look up Don Heath and noticed that he's been mentioned in passing a few times on OL. And there is a notice on the TAS site when he left IOS in the late 90's.

If he was David Kelley's assistant, I can't imagine he was a Randroid. So I feel it's wrong for me (but maybe not for you) to use the "c" word for him ("c" being "cult"). According to what I have learned, the more cult-like mentalities don't gravitate to the open system view--and being on that side of the divide is about all I know on him.

Of course, you interacted with the guy. Your reference is completely different than mine.

Michael

[PDS]

Kat and Andre have both shown poignantly one of the saddest effects of severe depression-- lost productivity. Worldwide, it must be immense and incalculable.

I cannot remember right now how many times I complained about depression in myself and my family here at OL. Probably not once, but perhaps backstage. I would be way too wary of jeering to dig up my mental yard and basement for spectators, perhaps. But count me in as one of those who seems to have budded off a tree of established dark depressive sap. I have been sapped by this thing, and I struggle manfully to resist it.

Andre, do keep in touch with those you feel you can trust whom you met here: but maybe travailing over mental woes on a forum is too fraught with pitfalls. I would say, having walked the track along with you and Kat, that your best ally (beside yourself) is the doctor and his professional, evidence/science-based suggestions, at your pace and with your full, actively-informed participation. Collaborate with him on your mental health, and wisely ignore ignorance and malice.

2 cents from a daemon in Vancouver . . .

"Ignore ignorance and malice."

That's good advice in any context.

[caroljane]

But count me in as one of those who seems to have budded off a tree of established dark depressive sap.

It's yielded a unique maple syrup, rich and sweet.

[Selene]

Andre:

FYI

There is a significant amount of information here

For example:

"It appears that there is a strong connection between closeness to at least one sibling during childhood and having a lower risk of depression in adulthood," said lead author Robert Waldinger, M.D., director of the Study of Adult Development at BWH. The Study has lasted for 68 years and is one of the longest longitudinal studies of adult psychosocial development ever conducted.

[caroljane]

Andre:

FYI

There is a significant amount of information here

For example:

"It appears that there is a strong connection between closeness to at least one sibling during childhood and having a lower risk of depression in adulthood," said lead author Robert Waldinger, M.D., director of the Study of Adult Development at BWH. The Study has lasted for 68 years and is one of the longest longitudinal studies of adult psychosocial development ever conducted.

Wow. Only child, "extreme eccentricity" in the family -- I was cooked.

[caroljane]

Andre:

FYI

There is a significant amount of information here

For example:

"It appears that there is a strong connection between closeness to at least one sibling during childhood and having a lower risk of depression in adulthood," said lead author Robert Waldinger, M.D., director of the Study of Adult Development at BWH. The Study has lasted for 68 years and is one of the longest longitudinal studies of adult psychosocial development ever conducted.

Wow. Only child, "extreme eccentricity" in the family -- I was cooked.

[Selene]

Andre:

FYI

There is a significant amount of information here

For example:

"It appears that there is a strong connection between closeness to at least one sibling during childhood and having a lower risk of depression in adulthood," said lead author Robert Waldinger, M.D., director of the Study of Adult Development at BWH. The Study has lasted for 68 years and is one of the longest longitudinal studies of adult psychosocial development ever conducted.

Wow. Only child, "extreme eccentricity" in the family -- I was cooked.

Carol:

It is interesting that you posted this because I thought the obverse would apply. Since, as you know, I am also an only, and, have been lucky enough to not be plagued by debilitating depression. I wonder if there are any worthwhile studies on "onlys" and depression?

Have not found any. Good general website

[caroljane]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Brant, I just noticed this post and since the thread is about Depression, I think it is misplaced...depression is "anger turned inwards", among other things, and in my experience depression strongly negates feelings of victimization. The depressed person feels entirely responsible for everything they are suffering, but incapable of taking action, and therefore ultimately unworthy to live, in the worst case.

[caroljane]

Andre:

FYI

There is a significant amount of information here

For example:

"It appears that there is a strong connection between closeness to at least one sibling during childhood and having a lower risk of depression in adulthood," said lead author Robert Waldinger, M.D., director of the Study of Adult Development at BWH. The Study has lasted for 68 years and is one of the longest longitudinal studies of adult psychosocial development ever conducted.

Wow. Only child, "extreme eccentricity" in the family -- I was cooked.

Carol:

It is interesting that you posted this because I thought the obverse would apply. Since, as you know, I am also an only, and, have been lucky enough to not be plagued by debilitating depression. I wonder if there are any worthwhile studies on "onlys" and depression?

Have not found any. Good general website

I doubt it. Only children are too relatively recent a phenomenon in scientific terms to merit much study - but they are rapidly becoming the norm in much of the world, so the profs better leap from their towers and get their skates on!

Also I would like to piggyback onto this a reply to Jonathan from an earlier post--it was in response to JR's description of professional self-doubt, no matter how many times he succeeds. J said, "But doesn/t this often happen to very talented people?" My immediate thought was, it happens to all people, but the very talented just write more about it and are written about more,

But the question of , is there a real difference between excellence and genius, is perennially interesting, and it reminded me of an article I had used for one of my courses. I wish I could remember more of it,. It did not address the question of correlation between genius and mental illness. But it reported on a study which surveyed a large number of historical figures considered geniuses and identified common factors in their lives. It included only the ones whose biographical details could be reliably known, therefore left out Shakespeare for one.

One factor was, a significant period of isolation, illness or dislocation in childhood or early adolescence. This made me think of Dickens in the Blacking Factory, though he was not referenced.

Another was, a close family member with mental illness.

Go figure.

[theandresanchez]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Brant, I just noticed this post and since the thread is about Depression, I think it is misplaced...depression is "anger turned inwards", among other things, and in my experience depression strongly negates feelings of victimization. The depressed person feels entirely responsible for everything they are suffering, but incapable of taking action, and therefore ultimately unworthy to live, in the worst case.

My experience is that externalizing anger is sometimes used to cope with depression. "Why am I blaming myself? They are responsible!". Of course, that then turns into "Why am not worthy of their consideration/love/whatever?". It's a complex web, which is why it is so difficult to untangle it.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Andre

[theandresanchez]

I doubt it. Only children are too relatively recent a phenomenon in scientific terms to merit much study - but they are rapidly becoming the norm in much of the world, so the profs better leap from their towers and get their skates on!

Millions of chinese men who are only children and have no hope for a mate. The end of the chinese economic miracle and the beginning of the Great Depression of China?

[Brant Gaede]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Brant, I just noticed this post and since the thread is about Depression, I think it is misplaced...depression is "anger turned inwards", among other things, and in my experience depression strongly negates feelings of victimization. The depressed person feels entirely responsible for everything they are suffering, but incapable of taking action, and therefore ultimately unworthy to live, in the worst case.

I stand by my remarks. The nature of repressed anger is it is not directly experienced. Drugs are a runaround that do not deal with the basic problem, which doesn't mean they aren't valuable in some cases. I have had no personal experiences with them. If I had a serious problem with depression it was in my pre-teen years and it wore off in adolescence and in adulthood I trained myself to avoid depressive thinking by asking myself if it was for a positive good. If not, I stopped thinking those thoughts. Being a victim is the biggest source of negative thinking. Seeing yourself both as a victim and your own victimizer is pushing the turbo button. One can have negative thoughts by proxy. Previous negative thinking doesn't need to be repeated to repeat its effects, just something one becomes aware of that represents it. (I'm not too sure about the previous two sentences.)

--Brant

[anthony]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Brant, I just noticed this post and since the thread is about Depression, I think it is misplaced...depression is "anger turned inwards", among other things, and in my experience depression strongly negates feelings of victimization. The depressed person feels entirely responsible for everything they are suffering, but incapable of taking action, and therefore ultimately unworthy to live, in the worst case.

I stand by my remarks. The nature of repressed anger is it is not directly experienced. Drugs are a runaround that do not deal with the basic problem, which doesn't mean they aren't valuable in some cases. I have had no personal experiences with them. If I had a serious problem with depression it was in my pre-teen years and it wore off in adolescence and in adulthood I trained myself to avoid depressive thinking by asking myself if it was for a positive good. If not, I stopped thinking those thoughts. Being a victim is the biggest source of negative thinking. Seeing yourself both as a victim and your own victimizer is pushing the turbo button. One can have negative thoughts by proxy. Previous negative thinking doesn't need to be repeated to repeat its effects, just something one becomes aware of that represents it. (I'm not too sure about the previous two sentences.)

--Brant

Dunno, Brant.

This is all too...energetic, too consciously cognitive.

Depression is defeat and listlessness planted in your core being, the way I see it.

A component of self-anger or hatred might arrive later for all I know.

Tony

It is a serious condition.

Edited July 27, 2011 by whYNOT

[Brant Gaede]

Seeing oneself as a victim also means seeing oneself as helpless regarding what makes one a victim and that can spread out osmotically into other areas of one's life. This is one huge facet of negative thinking.

--Brant

Brant, I just noticed this post and since the thread is about Depression, I think it is misplaced...depression is "anger turned inwards", among other things, and in my experience depression strongly negates feelings of victimization. The depressed person feels entirely responsible for everything they are suffering, but incapable of taking action, and therefore ultimately unworthy to live, in the worst case.

I stand by my remarks. The nature of repressed anger is it is not directly experienced. Drugs are a runaround that do not deal with the basic problem, which doesn't mean they aren't valuable in some cases. I have had no personal experiences with them. If I had a serious problem with depression it was in my pre-teen years and it wore off in adolescence and in adulthood I trained myself to avoid depressive thinking by asking myself if it was for a positive good. If not, I stopped thinking those thoughts. Being a victim is the biggest source of negative thinking. Seeing yourself both as a victim and your own victimizer is pushing the turbo button. One can have negative thoughts by proxy. Previous negative thinking doesn't need to be repeated to repeat its effects, just something one becomes aware of that represents it. (I'm not too sure about the previous two sentences.)

--Brant

Dunno, Brant.

This is all too...energetic, too consciously cognitive.

Depression is defeat and listlessness planted in your core being, the way I see it.

A component of self-anger or hatred might arrive later for all I know.

Tony

It is a serious condition.

It certainly is a serious condition, but I don't get this "too" business. I'm a very smart and experienced person who has done a lot of thinking about this over decades. I had to claw my way up the mountain of my life and I'm still clawing away. What I leave on the trail behind me is a measure of clarity and simplicity that may be of value to someone making a similar climb. I'm not taking any issue with your last sentence. Self-anger and hatred need not play any role in a depression at all. I'm not even saying a chemical imbalance isn't the primary cause of a particular depression as opposed to the repression of anger, but such repression is grossly under-rated and not generally well understood.

--Brant

[theandresanchez]

I'm not even saying a chemical imbalance isn't the primary cause of a particular depression as opposed to the repression of anger, but such repression is grossly under-rated and not generally well understood.

I was at a "bipolar anonymous" (so to speak) meeting and this guy spoke about restraining himself when threatened to avoid a manic crisis, and then falling into depression. Thinking back, I have had similar experiences. This may have something to do with a subconscious belief that you are not worth defending, thus are worthless, and should step aside so others can live. The belief gets reinforced by congruent behavior on your part (repression of anger). Maybe, and this is just a random thought that came to me, the way out of depression is to focus on the hatred of, and de-identification from, the parts of you that keep you from moving forward. They are not you, they are just bugs in your head harming you. Squash the bugs. Thoughts?

[anthony]

... the way out of depression is to focus on the hatred of, and de-identification from, the parts of you that keep you from moving forward. They are not you, they are just bugs in your head harming you. Squash the bugs. Thoughts?

I am no expert, right? But my thought is this is very dangerous.

The idea - surely - is to emerge from this WHOLE, not disintegrated.

If there is any self-hatred (and I feel that's an effect, not a cause), adding more hatred won't 'neutralize' what is there, I believe.

(Where's Dennis??)

Stop messing about with self-help theories, and trust yourself in the hands of an expert, immediately.

Those "parts" ARE "you".

[theandresanchez]

I am no expert, right? But my thought is this is very dangerous.

The idea - surely - is to emerge from this WHOLE, not disintegrated.

How do you do that without eliminating the contradictions in your psyche? "I want to live" versus "I'm not worthy of living". One has to go. When you sink further into the depression, the second becomes increasingly more dominant, until it eliminates the first entirely. The psyche is attempting to resolve the contradiction, with or without your conscious involvement.