Help with Depression

[PDS]

Dennis and Carol,

The doctor knew about the book and I think he mentioned that a movie had been made of it. I don't recall if he said whether he had read the book. He sure encouraged me with it. But that might have been partly due to the monitoring aspect Carol suggested.

Many years later, I had an Objectivist friend who was completing her PhD in psychology. I had been telling her about a book I had recently read and liked titled I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. She expressed some reservation about how realistic it was, and we got talking about what I think was called "spontaneous reemergence" and its unlikeliness. It meant something like coming out of a mental illness on one's own. (My depression did not involve psychosis as in Rose Garden.) I told my psychology friend the story of what had happened to me as a young man, being in the hospital, reading Fountainhead, and coming out for life like gangbusters. I said something like maybe this was one of those spontaneous cases. I remember her happy laughter and telling me "No."

I read I Never Promised You a Rose Garden around the age of 12, and hadn't thought of this book in probably 30 years until just now.

That book scared the piss out of me, and had me rattled for months. It is, if you will, psychology's The Screwtape Letters.

[caroljane]

I never read that book but if it is about a psychotic break, maybe I could have written it if I had the organizational skills.

I have only had one such episode, it was long ago, it was not scary to me at the time at all,I did not feel any emotions during it. But it has scared everything out of me since, my primary fear is ever to lose reality again.

[Guyau]

Mr. Story,

In #222 you wrote: “I don't understand how depression can be a normal, long term thing in a person who lives rationally in all aspects of life. If this is possible, then maybe Objectivism doesn't work as a philosophy for living life on this earth here and now.”

Living rationally in all aspects of one's life keeps one learning in all aspects, but it does not give one complete knowledge in all aspects (including all aspects of one’s self), and it does not mean one will make no mistakes. It will help one get about with uncovering mistakes, as it will help one roll back the unknown generally. Rand’s view was that one. It is the Objectivist view of human beings. It is the view in Objectivism also, as you may know, that suffering, including emotional suffering, is something of which to know: something is wrong, get to the causes.

Objectivism takes emotions to be psychosomatic responses to current episodes of life, which responses have been prepared by past judgments. It recognizes that it can take significant time for feelings to reshape in response to corrected judgments, just as it can take time to get over an emotional hurt behind which there were no incorrect judgments. Like time for a wound to heal.

Thanks for pausing to draw out your issue with Objectivism in the quote above. Without it your earlier clip (#220) was opaque and oddball, which perhaps has its entertainment. Life and happiness, and the persons you are writing to here, are serious business and deserve the more open thought. It is welcome if you want to criticize Objectivism, but being forthright about it—drawing it out in some specificity—is what will make it worth our time.

[BaalChatzaf]

One's philosophical convictions have nothing to do with serotonin re-uptake., Depression is a physical disorder. It is caused by an imbalance in the production of neurotransmitters. The most effective treatment for depression is by appropriate chemical medication.

I had a bout with depression about 30 years ago. I was treated with antidepressants and undertook a steady athletic program. Bike riding, treadmill and lots of fast walking. It did the trick. No shrinks. To touchy feely treatment. No psychiatric nonsense talk. I was cured out of the pill bottle.

After I was cured (or treated successfully) by clever molecules I became convinced that there is no mind. Only brains, glands and nerves. I still am so convinced. I was PET scanned and MRI scanned at Rutgers University as part of a program for study neural function in elderly folk. I asked the head man of the program to show me where my mind was in the scan images. He looked at me funny and did not respond. Never Mind. No Matter

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Guyau]

Bob,

If, as you and I hold, all one’s occasions of thought are themselves physical brain processes (http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2276&p=14672'>a, http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2276&p=14734'>b), then there is no up-front reason to suppose that thoughts as well as overt behaviors can have no physical connection as inputs to serotonin re-uptake or to other physical factors of neurotransmitters. That medications are an important therapy was not disputed in the recent Lancet study for which I reopened this thread (http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10955&p=174750'>#219). What the study established was that in those cases for which medications have been unsuccessful (up to two-thirds of cases of depression do not respond to anti-depressants) cognitive-behavioral therapies have a significant chance of still coming to the rescue.

Glad to hear of your own victory.

[jts]

One's philosophical convictions have nothing to do with serotonin re-uptake., Depression is a physical disorder. It is caused by an imbalance in the production of neurotransmitters. The most effective treatment for depression is by appropriate chemical medication.

How do you know the best treatment is meds? Meds are poisons. Maybe the best treatment is to first identify the problem and then to solve it. There are many possible causes of depression, nutritional, sleep deficiency, allergies, etc. Deficiency of meds (poisons) is not one of them.

I had a bout with depression about 30 years ago. I was treated with antidepressants and undertook a steady athletic program. Bike riding, treadmill and lots of fast walking. It did the trick. No shrinks. To touchy feely treatment. No psychiatric nonsense talk. I was cured out of the pill bottle.

How do you know the meds did it? Maybe the athletic program did it. Perhaps in spite of the meds. Maybe the athletic program would have worked better or quicker without the meds.

After I was cured (or treated successfully) by clever molecules I became convinced that there is no mind. Only brains, glands and nerves. I still am so convinced. I was PET scanned and MRI scanned at Rutgers University as part of a program for study neural function in elderly folk. I asked the head man of the program to show me where my mind was in the scan images. He looked at me funny and did not respond. Never Mind. No Matter

Ba'al Chatzaf

The relationship between mind and brain is roughly like the relationship between software and hardware. You can dissect a hard drive or a flash drive or a DVD and you will never find software in it. Software is information. Information is expressed somehow; in a hard drive as magnetic patterns, in a flash drive some other way. In the brain, information is expressed some biochemical/electrical way.

I look upon depression and other mental disorders as mental effects of usually physical health problems. Perhaps there are exceptions where a mental problem might be purely philosophical. Dr. Moser had success with mental patients based on the idea that mental disorders are often a symptom of an allergy. Dr. Russell Blaylock has lots to say about mental effects of diet.

Getting back to philosophy. Philosophy, as I understand it or perhaps mis-understand it, is not just about talking the talk; it is also about walking the walk. If it is to be a way of life, this way of life will include taking care of one's health. Health is a rational value, worth acting to gain and/or keep. Some people don't think so but they find out different when they lose it. A physically healthy person is not likely to be depressed.

[jts]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

[BaalChatzaf]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

I am living corroboration. Scientific theories are never really "proven" like theorems in math. At most they are either corroborated or falsified.

I am also a special case. The best neurophysiological experts at Rutgers could not locate my mind within my body. So it either exists Out There or it does not exist. I am probably mindless but I am very brainful.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

And I thought I was a fatalist. You have got me beat this time.

[william.scherk]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

And I thought I was a fatalist. You have got me beat this time.

The Natural Hygiene system of total health is magical and fantastic. Did you know, Carol, that they deny both viruses and bacteria as agents of disease? That's right -- the germ theory is total bunk, according to hygiene principles. This fabled 'Doctor' Shelton and his loony forebears and mutated clones pretend to knowledge and wisdom they did not possess.

A system of knowledge built on fudge.

[jts]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

And I thought I was a fatalist. You have got me beat this time.

Wiki says:

Fatalism generally refers to any of the following ideas:

1. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do.^[1] Included in this is that man has no power to influence the future, or indeed, his own actions.^[2] This belief is very similar to predeterminism.
2. An attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable^{[citation needed]}
3. That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end.^[3] This belief is very similar to compatibilist predestination.
4. That acceptance is appropriate, rather than resistance against inevitability. This belief is very similar to defeatism.

The connection between health of body and health of mind has nothing to do with fate. It does not imply powerlessness or predeterminism. Problems with physical health often can be reversed and usually prevented by healthful living. We have choice.

[jts]

The Natural Hygiene system of total health is magical and fantastic. Did you know, Carol, that they deny both viruses and bacteria as agents of disease? That's right -- the germ theory is total bunk, according to hygiene principles. This fabled 'Doctor' Shelton and his loony forebears and mutated clones pretend to knowledge and wisdom they did not possess.

A system of knowledge built on fudge.

They deny viruses and bacteria as -primary- causes of diseases. A healthy body is immune. They do not deny the existence of germs.

Even more magical and fantastic than Natural Hygiene is prescribing poisons for health.

Hygiene is defined as the science of health. Shelton got a few things wrong in the science of health. Hygiene is not a cult but a field of knowledge.

Prescribing poisons for health is not based on the science of health. There is a word for doctors whose doctoring is not based on science (the science of health), quack.

[BaalChatzaf]

They deny viruses and bacteria as -primary- causes of diseases. A healthy body is immune. They do not deny the existence of germs.

That is bullshit. Plain and simple.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[jts]

They deny viruses and bacteria as -primary- causes of diseases. A healthy body is immune. They do not deny the existence of germs.

That is bullshit. Plain and simple.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I guess those people who were exposed to smallpox and didn't get the disease in the experience of Dr. Tilden and other doctors don't count as evidence. In any case we were originally talking about psychiatric drugs. These are not for the purpose of killing germs. They are for the purpose of disrupting the biochemical machinery of the body thereby masking symptoms.

[Selene]

So Jerry, is your argument, when reduced to its basic premise:

You are what you eat?

A...

[caroljane]

Was the serotonin theory proved? If so, then do they do a physical test for serotonin?

Was the chemical imbalance theory proved? If so, can they show the chemical imbalance?

In any case, a healthy body takes care of the serotonin or the chemical imbalance or whatever and doesn't need a poison to fix it.

And I thought I was a fatalist. You have got me beat this time.

Wiki says:

Fatalism generally refers to any of the following ideas:

• The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do.^[1] Included in this is that man has no power to influence the future, or indeed, his own actions.^[2] This belief is very similar to predeterminism.
• An attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable^{[citation needed]}
• That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end.^[3] This belief is very similar to compatibilist predestination.
• That acceptance is appropriate, rather than resistance against inevitability. This belief is very similar to defeatism.

The connection between health of body and health of mind has nothing to do with fate. It does not imply powerlessness or predeterminism. Problems with physical health often can be reversed and usually prevented by healthful living. We have choice.

Those definitions don't sound right. Maybe I'm a synaestho-determinist, then. It doesn't have the same ring to it though.

[BaalChatzaf]

I guess those people who were exposed to smallpox and didn't get the disease in the experience of Dr. Tilden and other doctors don't count as evidence. In any case we were originally talking about psychiatric drugs. These are not for the purpose of killing germs. They are for the purpose of disrupting the biochemical machinery of the body thereby masking symptoms.

Crackpot nonsense.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

"My position is too difficult to endure and no one understands this. May God and everyone forgive someone who only tried to do her best."

So read the suicide note of one of my heroes, whose best was very good indeed. I am alive because others understood the position. Saved by the pill bottle.

jts, if you say one further stupid word on this subject, I will come out to Edmonton and strangle you.

[caroljane]

'The Position" being of course acute clinical depression, a fairly common illness. I first got it age 21 but was not aware of it at the time, my life was somewhat ruined by it at that time, I recovered and it did not recur until seven years later.

[Selene]

Carol:

If you are in need of rope for strangling, I will gladly send you some.

A...

[caroljane]

lol, I thought you might offer to put me up on my way to Alberta for a half-strangling, egalitarian style

[Selene]

That is negotiable.

[caroljane]

Union rates.

[Selene]

Right to work state rates...

[caroljane]

Your way? Guess I'll hit the Trans-Canada.