Grandpa and Grandma the murderer

[Selene]

It would be interesting to see the "shruggers" point to some time in history when collapsing civilization led to some beneficial outcome. The one recent case, Weimar Germany, didn't lead to freedom, it led to Hitler.

This is the real world, it isn't fiction, and Rand wasn't trying to give people a blueprint for anything.

Shayne

Shayne:

Do you agree that Ayn's concept of the sanction of the victim is a valid concept?

Adam

[sjw]

It would be interesting to see the "shruggers" point to some time in history when collapsing civilization led to some beneficial outcome. The one recent case, Weimar Germany, didn't lead to freedom, it led to Hitler.

This is the real world, it isn't fiction, and Rand wasn't trying to give people a blueprint for anything.

Shayne

Shayne:

Do you agree that Ayn's concept of the sanction of the victim is a valid concept?

Adam

Yes, and I don't sanction people leaching out of the system I'm forced to be plugged into.

Rand's heroes didn't live off food stamps by the way. They didn't *take*, they just refused to give more than necessary in order to live their lives. And they had somewhere to go -- a virtual frontier. We don't. Two hundred years ago, even a hundred maybe, one could just walk off. There is no more frontier left. The only option is to stay and try to fix the problems. Or not try. Our ancestors had the choice of telling the corrupt majority to piss off. Now our only choice is to educate them somehow. Who knows how this will turn out. The world has never been so completely dominated by corrupt government as it has been in just this last tiny bit of human history. It might get really ugly unless we find the right approach.

Incidentally, here is a guy who has taken your view on this to quite an extreme: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com .

Shayne

[Selene]

It would be interesting to see the "shruggers" point to some time in history when collapsing civilization led to some beneficial outcome. The one recent case, Weimar Germany, didn't lead to freedom, it led to Hitler.

This is the real world, it isn't fiction, and Rand wasn't trying to give people a blueprint for anything.

Shayne

Shayne:

Do you agree that Ayn's concept of the sanction of the victim is a valid concept?

Adam

Yes, and I don't sanction people leaching out of the system I'm forced to be plugged into.

Rand's heroes didn't live off food stamps by the way. They didn't *take*, they just refused to give more than necessary in order to live their lives. And they had somewhere to go -- a virtual frontier. We don't. Two hundred years ago, even a hundred maybe, one could just walk off. There is no more frontier left. The only option is to stay and try to fix the problems. Or not try. Our ancestors had the choice of telling the corrupt majority to piss off. Now our only choice is to educate them somehow. Who knows how this will turn out. The world has never been so completely dominated by corrupt government as it has been in just this last tiny bit of human history. It might get really ugly unless we find the right approach.

Incidentally, here is a guy who has taken your view on this to quite an extreme: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com .

Shayne

Shayne:

Really, quite an extremist. Has patents. His own business. Lives in rural Georgia and he actually wears a suit and tie. Is this your definition of extreme?

"Tom Baugh is an entrepreneur, inventor and professional irritant."

"While employed at McDonnell Douglas he authored patents on fractal designs and networked voice communications. He has been operating his own businesses since 1996, and has provided development tools and consulting services to thousands of clients worldwide."

"He currently lives in rural Georgia where he researches alternate energy and agribusiness technology, and develops course materials."

Secondly, prior to the food stamps, you had no problem with Alan's lifestyle choice then because "...he just refused to give more than necessary in order to live their lives."

Finally, there is plenty of frontier out there. Vast areas in this country. Hell, Canada has so much open territory you could not see a person for years. Plenty of frontier - Brazil. Guyana and Bolivia just to mention places that just little ole me knows about.

One last point, I am sure you can see that your statement below is a false dichotomy:

"The only option is to stay and try to fix the problems. Or not try. Our ancestors had the choice of telling the corrupt majority to piss off. Now our only choice is to educate them somehow."

Adam

[sjw]

Shayne:

Really, quite an extremist. Has patents. His own business. Lives in rural Georgia and he actually wears a suit and tie. Is this your definition of extreme?

I have an idea. Why don't you learn how to read? After that we can start working on your writing.

Secondly, prior to the food stamps, you had no problem with Alan's lifestyle choice then because "...he just refused to give more than necessary in order to live their lives."

Wrong, but I won't count on you to remember what I said just a few posts back. Like I said, learn how to read.

Finally, there is plenty of frontier out there. Vast areas in this country. Hell, Canada has so much open territory you could not see a person for years. Plenty of frontier - Brazil. Guyana and Bolivia just to mention places that just little ole me knows about.

Go for it. See what happens if you try to form any kind of community other than a pathetically wretched kind. See what happens if you try to bring even a small group of productive individuals into one place who try to improve their lives. Just don't say I didn't warn you.

Shayne

[Selene]

Shayne:

Your statement was "here is a guy who has taken your view on this to quite an extreme."

Adam

Edited October 27, 2010 by Selene

[sjw]

Shayne:

Your statement was "here is a guy who has taken your view on this to quite an extreme."

Adam

Sigh... To take say somebody took something to an extreme is not an normative expression. To call someone an "extremist" is. Tom Baugh took and idea to an extreme, he is not an "extremist."

Newton took a certain idea to an extreme with his physics, I took the idea of individual political sovereignty to an extreme in my book, it can certainly be valid to take an idea to an extreme. Tom Baugh's book is of interest in that he took the shrugging concept to an extreme. I happen to disagree with the book and its premise and think it can only lead to bad results, but not the method of being principled about one's principles.

Shayne

[equality72521]

Shayne as I said before that was the hardest thing I ever did was decide to take advantage of the system. I am half Native so there are other things I could do but I cannot bring myself to apply for them, the one was hard enough. What finally pushed me over the edge as I said before was the FED's new quantitative easing policy. Inflation is at 10% (the M2) for this year alone. This is the Titanic and the ship is sinking fast, I will not be the Captain who orders the band to keep playing, I will not be the passenger who says "Panic" and is able to do nothing. I am positioning myself to survive this, and if things turn out right to be able to help rebuild America. This assult by the government is more than just taxing me to death, this is the deliberate destruction of my savings. The day I am kicked off and the program is ended I will jump for joy, but I will not stand by and have my throat slit because.

Grandma and Grandpa paid in?

This fundamentally is the problem. You do not pay into unemployment, you do not pay into Social security. You get taxed and then the government gives you money later which is not related to the amount you did or did not pay in taxes. There was a program before social security which was shut down as being unconstitutional because it was "insurance". The government then created a parallel system to tax and then distribute funds but they were not ever connected.

As to Ayn Rands hero's.

What I get paid in food stamps off-sets most of what I have paid in taxes over the past 10 years. depending on how much longer the system holds out will depend on if what i recover in FS will exceed what I pay in taxes (I doubt that will ever be a problem).

As for blaming seniors, and blaming them collectively you should read the thread. I have said it before and will say it again. I do not blame every senior, however I do blame most of them. THEY Kept re-electing these jokers. they bought the Utopian pipe dream hook line and sinker when two minutes though should have shown them the reality. Fear because of the last great depression is no excuse. It has been being said since the 1990's that I know of there is something wrong with the system. and rather than demand that it be fixed what did they do?

Am I pissed at the seniors? You bet, am I pissed at those who grew up in the 70's you bet. Do I blame all of then no. I do however blame the majority of seniors I have spoken too. I am pissed they didn't vote for Goldwater, I am pissed they slept through their watch, I am pissed they let these slimy politicians pass these welfare programs. I am pissed that they didn't think this through. I have a former college professor who teaches psychology, I love this man. He was in a rock band in the 1960's, hes a former member of the CPUSA. I will never forget a conversation we had one day after class.

I was in his office talking to him about how prevalent Socialism is in the US, I told him to his face that his generation left my generation with a shitmess to clean up. Now keep in mind this man is a former communist party member, he teaches psychology and sociology. He slips in every chance he gets anti-commie propaganda. He looked me in the face after I said this and said very seriously "I know, and I am sorry for that."

This man is a mentor to me, and as I said I love him like a father, but there are not enough of his type yet. What concerns me as I have said over and over here is that the Seniors are not going to be willing to pay the piper. Maybe they will, maybe some will and most wont, I will hold dear those that are willing to pay up. But by all the gods do you understand exactly what it means if they dont pay up?

In his new book broke Glenn Beck speaks about the Solution to our woe's (paraphrasing):

"I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but what I do know is that when we see it we will know what it is. We will know because it will be extremely painful, and it will hurt a lot of people."

Do I want to be hurt? No i dont. but being hurt isnt what i am worried about, I know I am going to be hurt, and a lot. What worries me is that I am going to be sold into slavery.

[sjw]

What worries me is that I am going to be sold into slavery.

Going to be?

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying, and I certainly don't object to getting food storage and such as a kind of insurance policy against short-term issues, but in the long run none of what you are talking about is useful.

One fundamental tenet you seem to be assuming here is that you are a debtor just because your government took out a loan. You say in the topic "Grandpa and Grandma the murderer." Guess what. When somebody can't pay then they don't. It's that simple. Who loses? The schmuck who handed the borrower money. Guess who gets hurt worst by inflation? It's not the young, it's the old. The young can keep producing, their wages rise as inflation happens. Savers and retirees get screwed. Your best asset in the future you're painting is you, not your silver. Grandma and Grandpa are the ones who'd better have some silver. You can produce.

Shayne

[equality72521]

What worries me is that I am going to be sold into slavery.

Going to be?

There's a lot of truth in what you're saying, and I certainly don't object to getting food storage and such as a kind of insurance policy against short-term issues, but in the long run none of what you are talking about is useful.

One fundamental tenet you seem to be assuming here is that you are a debtor just because your government took out a loan. You say in the topic "Grandpa and Grandma the murderer." Guess what. When somebody can't pay then they don't. It's that simple. Who loses? The schmuck who handed the borrower money. Guess who gets hurt worst by inflation? It's not the young, it's the old. The young can keep producing, their wages rise as inflation happens. Savers and retirees get screwed. Your best asset in the future you're painting is you, not your silver. Grandma and Grandpa are the ones who'd better have some silver. You can produce.

Shayne

I can produce, and the value of that dollar I earn keeps decreasing and decreasing and decreasing. Look I am not saying we cant help grandma and grandpa when the shit hits the fan. my mom is 53 she can only work for another 4 or 5 years tops (shes sick and getting sicker) its just as much her fault as it is grandma and grandpas. Will I not help take care of her? no. This thread is more or less a shout from the roof "Dont murder me!". do me a favor pick up a copy of what Americans really want really and read the part on seniors. Then come back here and tell me your not scared to death. Where I grew up there was a saying "You cant teach an old dog new tricks."

The reason why I am so worried quite frankly is this: Grandma and Grandpa believe they are owed social security, the money is not there. many older people I have talked to want "their" money, they dont care that its not there they paid in and they want whats theirs. the majority of seniors I have talked to have not stopped to ask the question "at whos expense".

[Selene]

Shayne as I said before that was the hardest thing I ever did was decide to take advantage of the system. I am half Native so there are other things I could do but I cannot bring myself to apply for them, the one was hard enough. What finally pushed me over the edge as I said before was the FED's new quantitative easing policy. Inflation is at 10% (the M2) for this year alone. This is the Titanic and the ship is sinking fast, I will not be the Captain who orders the band to keep playing, I will not be the passenger who says "Panic" and is able to do nothing. I am positioning myself to survive this, and if things turn out right to be able to help rebuild America. This assult by the government is more than just taxing me to death, this is the deliberate destruction of my savings. The day I am kicked off and the program is ended I will jump for joy, but I will not stand by and have my throat slit because.

Grandma and Grandpa paid in?

This fundamentally is the problem. You do not pay into unemployment, you do not pay into Social security. You get taxed and then the government gives you money later which is not related to the amount you did or did not pay in taxes. There was a program before social security which was shut down as being unconstitutional because it was "insurance". The government then created a parallel system to tax and then distribute funds but they were not ever connected.

As to Ayn Rands hero's.

What I get paid in food stamps off-sets most of what I have paid in taxes over the past 10 years. depending on how much longer the system holds out will depend on if what i recover in FS will exceed what I pay in taxes (I doubt that will ever be a problem).

As for blaming seniors, and blaming them collectively you should read the thread. I have said it before and will say it again. I do not blame every senior, however I do blame most of them. THEY Kept re-electing these jokers. they bought the Utopian pipe dream hook line and sinker when two minutes though should have shown them the reality. Fear because of the last great depression is no excuse. It has been being said since the 1990's that I know of there is something wrong with the system. and rather than demand that it be fixed what did they do?

Am I pissed at the seniors? You bet, am I pissed at those who grew up in the 70's you bet. Do I blame all of then no. I do however blame the majority of seniors I have spoken too. I am pissed they didn't vote for Goldwater, I am pissed they slept through their watch, I am pissed they let these slimy politicians pass these welfare programs. I am pissed that they didn't think this through. I have a former college professor who teaches psychology, I love this man. He was in a rock band in the 1960's, hes a former member of the CPUSA. I will never forget a conversation we had one day after class.

I was in his office talking to him about how prevalent Socialism is in the US, I told him to his face that his generation left my generation with a shitmess to clean up. Now keep in mind this man is a former communist party member, he teaches psychology and sociology. He slips in every chance he gets anti-commie propaganda. He looked me in the face after I said this and said very seriously "I know, and I am sorry for that."

This man is a mentor to me, and as I said I love him like a father, but there are not enough of his type yet. What concerns me as I have said over and over here is that the Seniors are not going to be willing to pay the piper. Maybe they will, maybe some will and most wont, I will hold dear those that are willing to pay up. But by all the gods do you understand exactly what it means if they dont pay up?

In his new book broke Glenn Beck speaks about the Solution to our woe's (paraphrasing):

"I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but what I do know is that when we see it we will know what it is. We will know because it will be extremely painful, and it will hurt a lot of people."

Do I want to be hurt? No i dont. but being hurt isnt what i am worried about, I know I am going to be hurt, and a lot. What worries me is that I am going to be sold into slavery.

Very well put!!

"I was in his office talking to him about how prevalent Socialism is in the US, I told him to his face that his generation left my generation with a shitmess to clean up. Now keep in mind this man is a former communist party member, he teaches psychology and sociology. He slips in every chance he gets anti-commie propaganda. He looked me in the face after I said this and said very seriously 'I know, and I am sorry for that.'"

This is a great story.

Adam

[sjw]

I can produce, and the value of that dollar I earn keeps decreasing and decreasing and decreasing.

All things equal this also means your wages keep increasing and increasing. Again, if you're going to pit old vs. young, the worst possible scenario for old people who have savings and entitlements and who are not likely to get raises is inflation. The worst for the young who will have to pay for the entitlements and who have little savings is deflation.

do me a favor pick up a copy of what Americans really want really and read the part on seniors. Then come back here and tell me your not scared to death. Where I grew up there was a saying "You cant teach an old dog new tricks."

We outnumber the seniors. Even given the baby boomers. They can't get what they want merely by wanting it, substantial portions of all demographics are going to have to be for it too.

You're fixated on non-essentials.

Shayne

[equality72521]

I can produce, and the value of that dollar I earn keeps decreasing and decreasing and decreasing.

All things equal this also means your wages keep increasing and increasing. Again, if you're going to pit old vs. young, the worst possible scenario for old people who have savings and entitlements and who are not likely to get raises is inflation. The worst for the young who will have to pay for the entitlements and who have little savings is deflation.

WHAT! Ok lets start at the end. Deflation- When the amount of money in circulation decreases. Fact: if you have little savings or a lot of savings deflation is a good thing. so long as you have some savings. Why. If I have $100 in the bank and tomorrow the half the US money supply disappears the Real value of that $100 increases. Deflation is a good thing Mr. Keynes. Second If I have a $100 in the bank and the money supply doubles I can now buy half as much. When you reach critical mass (Hyperinflation) the price of things goes up not by the year, month, week, or day, but by the minute. Weimar Think bad very bad. If I make $10,000 a day and I go to bed at 11 o'clock at night and then when I wake up at 5 that $10,000 buys half of what it bought when i went to bed.... well if you think thats good for anyone I suggest you have your head examined.

do me a favor pick up a copy of what Americans really want really and read the part on seniors. Then come back here and tell me your not scared to death. Where I grew up there was a saying "You cant teach an old dog new tricks."

We outnumber the seniors. Even given the baby boomers. They can't get what they want merely by wanting it, substantial portions of all demographics are going to have to be for it too.

You're fixated on non-essentials.

Shayne

check your numbers. the voting population (those who can vote) are majority baby boomers. This is not a non-essential. the birth rate http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

try again please.

[equality72521]

Side note: another thing which worries me is the population threshold. When an animal population drops X amount below its highest peak the species goes extinct. I dont remember what X is but maybe someone here may know.

[sjw]

WHAT! Ok lets start at the end. Deflation- When the amount of money in circulation decreases. Fact: if you have little savings or a lot of savings deflation is a good thing. so long as you have some savings. Why. If I have $100 in the bank and tomorrow the half the US money supply disappears the Real value of that $100 increases. Deflation is a good thing Mr. Keynes. Second If I have a $100 in the bank and the money supply doubles I can now buy half as much. When you reach critical mass (Hyperinflation) the price of things goes up not by the year, month, week, or day, but by the minute. Weimar Think bad very bad. If I make $10,000 a day and I go to bed at 11 o'clock at night and then when I wake up at 5 that $10,000 buys half of what it bought when i went to bed.... well if you think thats good for anyone I suggest you have your head examined.

I was talking about inflation not hyper-inflation. If you think otherwise you should have *your* head examined.

check your numbers. the voting population (those who can vote) are majority baby boomers. This is not a non-essential. the birth rate http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

try again please.

Citing the birthrate does not back up your demographic assertion. Try again please.

Besides, I referred to seniors, not "baby boomers."

Shayne

[sjw]

Side note: another thing which worries me is the population threshold. When an animal population drops X amount below its highest peak the species goes extinct. I dont remember what X is but maybe someone here may know.

You really need to get your head examined. The population threshold concept only pertains to resource-limited environments. Given man's mind, the potential resources are unlimited. There is no such threshold for human beings, so long as they are free to create and produce.

Edit: I would add that this is a favorite "fact" of Malthusians who jump up and down saying the world is coming to an end in order to scam you, stay away from anyone who's telling you such things.

Shayne

Edited October 27, 2010 by sjw

[equality72521]

Side note: another thing which worries me is the population threshold. When an animal population drops X amount below its highest peak the species goes extinct. I dont remember what X is but maybe someone here may know.

You really need to get your head examined. The population threshold concept only pertains to resource-limited environments. Given man's mind, the potential resources are unlimited. There is no such threshold for human beings, so long as they are free to create and produce.

Edit: I would add that this is a favorite "fact" of Malthusians who jump up and down saying the world is coming to an end in order to scam you, stay away from anyone who's telling you such things.

Shayne

http://www.aarp.org/work/retirement-planning/news-07-2010/retirees_may_soon_outnumber_workers_contributing_to_state_pension.html

As for the Malthusians. the question is will we do something about it? as you have noted the movement for "overpopulation" is seriously effective. I am not worried about over population (we are no where near that rate) I am more worried about dropping below the threshold and not having sufficient motivation to repopulate. This problem is still a long ways off but it is still a possible problem. the point is that the number of people working vs retired is reaching critical mass.

as for inflation vs hyperinflation the principle still applies. if my money is loosing value the rate is unimportant its still loosing value.

[Selene]

Baby-boomers are the bulge in the belly of the population snake that begins with those born in 1946 - which would make them sixty-four (64) this year. Last time I checked that was a senior citizen, or as we like to be referred to, as a seasoned citizen.

United States birth rate (births per 1000 population). The blue segment is the postwar baby boom.^[1]

"In general, baby boomers are associated with a rejection or redefinition of traditional values; however, many commentators have disputed the extent of that rejection, noting the widespread continuity of values with older and younger generations. In Europe and North America boomers are widely associated with privilege, as many grew up in a time of affluence.^[2] As a group, they were the healthiest, and wealthiest generation to that time, and amongst the first to grow up genuinely expecting the world to improve with time.^[3] "

Besides, I referred to seniors, not "baby boomers."

Back to you Shayne.

Has my reading improved or is that a Humean normative expression...

Adam

Edited October 27, 2010 by Selene

[sjw]

As for the Malthusians. the question is will we do something about it?

Who knows. If everyone does what you're doing we're screwed.

as you have noted the movement for "overpopulation" is seriously effective. I am not worried about over population (we are no where near that rate) I am more worried about dropping below the threshold and not having sufficient motivation to repopulate. This problem is still a long ways off but it is still a possible problem. the point is that the number of people working vs retired is reaching critical mass.

You're fixating on details you do not understand how to rationally integrate. You're reading too much end of the world crap.

as for inflation vs hyperinflation the principle still applies. if my money is loosing value the rate is unimportant its still loosing value.

Are you insane? Seriously. Hyperinflation is nothing like inflation regarding social consequences.

Stop reading idiot Malthusians, you're wrecking your life worse than anyone else. You're what, 26? You have only about another 4 years to get your head straightened out and learn something important so you can be productive. Ignore all the political nonsense if you have to, your mental health is more important.

Shayne

[sjw]

Besides, I referred to seniors, not "baby boomers."

Back to you Shayne.

Has my reading improved or is that a Humean normative expression...

Adam

Interesting graph but not relevant. What we need is something like this updated for 2010:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Uspop.svg

Shayne

[Selene]

Besides, I referred to seniors, not "baby boomers."

Back to you Shayne.

Has my reading improved or is that a Humean normative expression...

Adam

Interesting graph but not relevant. What we need is something like this updated for 2010:

http://upload.wikime.../2/20/Uspop.svg

Shayne

Shayne, the graph was not the point and you know it was not the point.

So, baby boomers are not seniors, Shayne? Yes or No.

Adam

[sjw]

Shayne, the graph was not the point and you know it was not the point.

So, baby boomers are not seniors, Shayne? Yes or No.

Adam

The point is Malthusians pick the graphs that best support their arguments instead of the relevant ones. Hence you and equality are looking at birth rates rather than actually-exists rates.

Your question is irrelevant. Why do you care so much about irrelevancy? Are you having a senior moment? ;)

Shayne

[Kimmler]

Side note: another thing which worries me is the population threshold. When an animal population drops X amount below its highest peak the species goes extinct. I dont remember what X is but maybe someone here may know.

You really need to get your head examined. The population threshold concept only pertains to resource-limited environments. Given man's mind, the potential resources are unlimited. There is no such threshold for human beings, so long as they are free to create and produce.

Edit: I would add that this is a favorite "fact" of Malthusians who jump up and down saying the world is coming to an end in order to scam you, stay away from anyone who's telling you such things.

Shayne

Shayne,

Spot on...I agree with every word you wrote there.

Though this debate is one I can't really get involved in. As it really to decided which is the best party at running capitalism.

The American working class knows what it wants as does the working class Worldwide, though I would advise them not to vote for any of the political parties that seek to work within the capitalist system.

[sjw]

Though this debate is one I can't really get involved in. As it really to decided which is the best party at running capitalism.

The American working class knows what it wants as does the working class Worldwide, though I would advise them not to vote for any of the political parties that seek to work within the capitalist system.

Less concern for capitalism and more concern for individual rights is in order. The word "capitalism", apparently originally coined by Marx, immediately shifts one's attention to economic concerns and thus away from liberty in general, it is a word that implicitly biases a political system toward fascism, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. Indeed, in modern times, when people say "capitalism" much of what the mean is precisely fascism, even including many Objectivists.

For example, how often do you hear an Objectivist being concerned about the Bill of Rights being systematically eradicated? Search for "Ayn Rand Institute Bill Of Rights" and you pretty much turn up zilch interest in this issue. Or try "Ayn Rand Institute Patriot Act." At least they said something about the bailout... out of one side of their mouth.

Shayne

[Selene]

Though this debate is one I can't really get involved in. As it really to decided which is the best party at running capitalism.

The American working class knows what it wants as does the working class Worldwide, though I would advise them not to vote for any of the political parties that seek to work within the capitalist system.

Less concern for capitalism and more concern for individual rights is in order. The word "capitalism", apparently originally coined by Marx, immediately shifts one's attention to economic concerns and thus away from liberty in general, it is a word that implicitly biases a political system toward fascism, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. Indeed, in modern times, when people say "capitalism" much of what the mean is precisely fascism, even including many Objectivists.

For example, how often do you hear an Objectivist being concerned about the Bill of Rights being systematically eradicated? Search for "Ayn Rand Institute Bill Of Rights" and you pretty much turn up zilch interest in this issue. Or try "Ayn Rand Institute Patriot Act." At least they said something about the bailout... out of one side of their mouth.

Shayne

Shayne:

I would assume that you are applying your statement about capitalism to Ayn also. Essentially, if I understand your argument above, Ayn would be espousing fascism by her advocacy of capitalism?

Rand quoted:

Capitalism demands the best of every man – his rationality – and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him.

When I say "capitalism," I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism—with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

Capitalism demands the best of every man—his rationality—and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value. When men are free to trade, with reason and reality as their only arbiter, when no man may use physical force to extort the consent of another, it is the best product and the best judgment that win in every field of human endeavor, and raise the standard of living—and of thought—ever higher for all those who take part in mankind's productive activity.

Adam

[sjw]

Shayne:

I would assume that you are applying your statement about capitalism to Ayn also. Essentially, if I understand your argument above, Ayn would be espousing fascism by her advocacy of capitalism?

I think to defend Man's Rights you defend them, all of them, systematically and without preference or bias given to any particular right over the others. Is there a reason you'd rather talk about Ayn Rand than the fundamental issue I'm raising?

Shayne