Grandpa and Grandma the murderer

[equality72521]

I recently read Frank Luntz books what Americans Really want... Really. and Words that Work: its not what you say its what they hear. I am now reading Glenn Becks new book and I have to tell you I am more horrified than ever before.

I had a conversation with my mother some months ago which really angered her it went something like this.

Me: What really pisses me off is that this is your fault.

Mom: What?

Me: You all (her generation) fucked us. It is morally reprehensible what you have done, in the

words of Thomas Jefferson "We shall all consider ourselves unauthorized to sattle posterity with our debts and morally bound to pay them ourselves and consequentially within what may be deemed a period of a generation or the life expectancy of the majority." How dare you guys run up the bill like this how dare you hand us such a fucked up situation.

Mom: How can you blame me/us we didn't create this situation things were messed up before we ever had any power or authority to do anything about it.

Me: Yes it was. That's not what I blame you guys for, I blame you guys because it was screwed up and you didn't do anything about it. You inherited a house with some shit in the carpets and on the walls and you handed to us(my generation) a house FULL of shit, its wall to wall, ceiling to ceiling top to bottom. How dare you guys.

Mom: How can you blame us?

Me: Because you had no business handing us a world worse than you found it. If you were rich and lost your fortune and I had to make my own I wouldn't blame you for that. But what your generation has done and the generation before yours is not just lost the fortune which you inherited but you have leveraged my future to pay for your present.

And this lady's and gentlemen is what brings us to the point. Grandma and Grandpa those people who are now retiring and who are retired are murdering the rest of us slowly. They have placed the rest of us upon an alter to be sacrificed to the God's of Social Security, Medicare, and "elderly" welfare programs. These same people believe they have a Right to Social Security, that they paid into it and therefore they deserve it. Well Grandma and Grandpa wake up, you have been duped, it wasn't a retirement investment program, it was a tax, and while you were sleeping the Democrats and Republicans were robbing you blind. And now Grandma and Grandpa because YOU slept, because of YOUR incompetence YOU think you have a Right to enslave me so you can retire at 65? YOU broke the bank, YOU LET yourself be robbed, now its time for YOU to pay the piper.

Seniors are the largest voting block in this country and they are about to become even larger with the baby boomers. I am terrified that rather than owing up they are going to sell not their soul but mine. And the reality is I think they are going to sell me into slavery, and I doubt I am the only one. Frank Luntz was right class warfare is coming to this country, and its not going to be rich against poor, its not going to be black against white, its going to be young against old.

Grandma and Grandpa you are sacrificing your children and your grandchildren for temporary security. What gives you the right to murder me? To hell with that!

I do not cite the good of others as a sanction on my right to exist' date=' nor do I accept the good of others as a justification for my destruction. I could say that you do not serve the public good, that when you have violated the rights of one, you have violated the rights of all, and that a country of rightless citizens is a country doomed to failure. I could say it, but I won't. It is not your particular policy I challenge, but your moral premise. If it could be proved that some good could actually come through the taking of my blood, and I were asked to immolate myself so that others might live—if I were asked to serve the interests of the public apart from, above, and against my own—I would refuse. I would refuse even if half a second remained before I would be murdered; I would refuse in the name of a man's inalienable right to exist. In short, if it is now the opinion of my fellow citizens, who call themselves the public, that their good requires victims, then I say: the public good be damned; I will have no part of it! [/quote']

[Selene]

Alan:

So right about now, going on strike sounds like a reasonable and rational act to take...correct?

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

I thought the implied argument was killing off all the registered Democrats on Social Security.

[rodney203]

Somebody wrote:

"And now Grandma and Grandpa because YOU slept, because of YOUR incompetence YOU think you have a Right to enslave me so you can retire at 65? YOU broke the bank, YOU LET yourself be robbed, now its time for YOU to pay the piper."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a pretty good way to put it.

[equality72521]

My mother just got done reading this post and gave me an earful over it. She thinks my post was "insensitive" and "unfair". She thought that I was completely wrong in my assessment. So for the seniors who post here(dont know if there are any) for those who are close to retirement I want to know exactly where I got it wrong. Be honest be brutal (I was). For decades it has been talked about that social security and medicare are unsustainable. The Utopian pipe dream sold by FDR and those that came after was absurd, one look should have told everyone this was not possible to be sustained. The National debt has grown under your generation, the national debt has exploded under your generation. I turned 26 this year, I am a member of the 2020 generation. The way I see it is you (grandma and grandpa) just like the rest of the bribed (blacks, gays, latinos, the poor) bought into a bad bill of goods without reading the fine print. You kept re-electing these people over and over and over again. No I do not blame every single person over the age of 45, I do consider the "group" responsible however.

I have heard since I was 10 years old that there was not going to be any money in the social security program for me to collect when I retired how did this group of people not know?

[kiaer.ts]

My mother just got done reading this post and gave me an earful over it. She thinks my post was "insensitive" and "unfair". She thought that I was completely wrong in my assessment. So for the seniors who post here(dont know if there are any) for those who are close to retirement I want to know exactly where I got it wrong. Be honest be brutal (I was). For decades it has been talked about that social security and medicare are unsustainable. The Utopian pipe dream sold by FDR and those that came after was absurd, one look should have told everyone this was not possible to be sustained. The National debt has grown under your generation, the national debt has exploded under your generation. I turned 26 this year, I am a member of the 2020 generation. The way I see it is you (grandma and grandpa) just like the rest of the bribed (blacks, gays, latinos, the poor) bought into a bad bill of goods without reading the fine print. You kept re-electing these people over and over and over again. No I do not blame every single person over the age of 45, I do consider the "group" responsible however.

I have heard since I was 10 years old that there was not going to be any money in the social security program for me to collect when I retired how did this group of people not know?

Root, then, for a good bout of inflation to wipe out their savings and the value of Social Security, to be followed, after they have starved, one hopes, by a free market revolution to return us all to wealth by the time our turn comes.

[Selene]

Alan:

I probably asked this of you already, but I will ask it once again.

What do you do for a living?

Adam

[equality72521]

Alan:

I probably asked this of you already, but I will ask it once again.

What do you do for a living?

Adam

I work normal Jobs and sometimes teach. As of last month I also started collecting food stamps and then use the money I save not buying food to pay for silver. When I decided to somewhat go galt (I dropped out of the University) it was one of the hardest things I ever did. You have no idea how hard it is not to start my own business sometimes. going on food stamps was an even harder choice but I just couldn't not do it any more. Here is what drove me to it. I barely make just under the limit to get food stamps I have always been against such programs, however the economic situation of this country is so bad that there is no way the dollar is not going to collapse. I decided that because the government is destroying the value of my money I had no choice but to take advantage of the system and build up as much of an insulation as I possibly can.

The year before the collapse I started buying dry/dehydrated food. This last year I have been buying up silver and as much of it as I can. I only have 6 years worth of food and a little over 115 ounces of sliver. What pushed me over the edge though was the "Quantitative easing" policy which the FED is going to pursue. I will be glad when I am kicked off foodstamps but as a bit of a side note I would like some input on this from others because I hate doing this but at the moment I feel like the I am on the Titanic and I need to grab anything that floats.

[Selene]

Alan:

I probably asked this of you already, but I will ask it once again.

What do you do for a living?

Adam

I work normal Jobs and sometimes teach. As of last month I also started collecting food stamps and then use the money I save not buying food to pay for silver. When I decided to somewhat go galt (I dropped out of the University) it was one of the hardest things I ever did. You have no idea how hard it is not to start my own business sometimes. going on food stamps was an even harder choice but I just couldn't not do it any more. Here is what drove me to it. I barely make just under the limit to get food stamps I have always been against such programs, however the economic situation of this country is so bad that there is no way the dollar is not going to collapse. I decided that because the government is destroying the value of my money I had no choice but to take advantage of the system and build up as much of an insulation as I possibly can.

The year before the collapse I started buying dry/dehydrated food. This last year I have been buying up silver and as much of it as I can. I only have 6 years worth of food and a little over 115 ounces of sliver. What pushed me over the edge though was the "Quantitative easing" policy which the FED is going to pursue. I will be glad when I am kicked off foodstamps but as a bit of a side note I would like some input on this from others because I hate doing this but at the moment I feel like the I am on the Titanic and I need to grab anything that floats.

Alan:

I have absolutely no problem with what you are doing. I wish more people would do the same. We are close to a irreversible tipping point. I think we have a very thin chance with this election next week of stunning this juggernaut off its path. However, we will have to move very quickly and take advantage of the disorientation of the Washington monolith.

A radical defunding Congress might have a chance to stop this disaster, but there will be major dislocations of resources as government sectors shut down. That is when we will be most vulnerable to the danger of "leader" emerging with an evil agenda.

Therefore, you have to be prepared as you are preparing. Many folks have comfortable portfolios, some here on OL, but if that dollar crashes or inflation begins, you will have real bone chilling fear sweeping this country.

This week, I believe the five (5) year Tifs were sucked up quickly. Never a good sign.

These are parlous times.

Adam

[pippi]

"Demi....why you do this to me Demi...why!" the exorcist 1973....

give your mom a break !

[equality72521]

I would not usually say this here (or really anywhere) but this thread makes me feel like opening up more. I am horrified more horrified than you could imagine. I am a data guy, always have been, I am also the guy who you go to a movie with on opening night and ten minutes into it I tell you the entire plot and how it ends every movie every time. I see the future, not because I am a profit but because i see trends and right now there are so many possibilities and most of the are bad. I have had a lot of bad stuff happen in my life, I have been through quite a bit, I have had a gun pulled on me, I have had my life threatened more than once, I have lost everything and come back from nothing. And never in my life have I ever been so scared as I am now. For twelve years I have been shouting from the roof tops "The communists are here!" and everyone thought I was nuts. Well guess what, they are here. I have cried at least twice a week every week for the last several months. I just break down in despair. Reading "What America Really wants... Really." took me several hours to read the chapter on senior.

Whenever I think about seniors I have such a mix of emotions, respect, gratitude, anger and fear. I was born and raised in the south. I was raised without cable TV (3 channels), I didn't have a cellphone until I was 20, There wasn't even a computer in my home until I was 16(I don't count the commodore 64). I was raised with 1950's values. I am just so angry, how did these people not know? I am concerned that I am living in the last days of the greatest country which ever existed, how could I not be angry? and if this union falls apart (contrary to the belief of some I am not a sperarationist) it will be the greatest travesty the world has experienced. The same people who slept while their children and grandchildrens freedom were stolen now have a chance to set things right. I just dont know if they will.

I HATE collecting food stamps for any reasons. I swore I would never do it no matter how bad things got, and i have been through some pretty bad times. but as Rand said there can be no such thing as morality in a life boat situation.

[equality72521]

"Demi....why you do this to me Demi...why!" the exorcist 1973....

give your mom a break !

The vent was not focused on her. Regardless of if it was or not, is what I said true or not?

[Selene]

Alan:

Many "seniors" did speak up and did not just go along, but the post world war two batch that were the sons and daughters of the depression and WWII had the way smoothed for them, primarily to "protect them from the hardships of war and bread lines." A twenty-five (25%) unemployment rate amongst men, who were the primary worker in the family.

Making life easier for the baby boomers was, frankly, as Rand explained, breaking the fledgelings wings and sending them off the branch to survive. A true disaster.

That generation truly dropped the ball, substituting instant gratification for their country's well being. Now it is up to us. We have a small chance to turn it around. I am an eternal optimist, but we are on the edge and the ice is thin.

All I can suggest is that we continue to fight, but we should be damn well prepared to vanish if it gets as grim as it might.

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

Hyperinflation is not a cause, but a result. It is not a force of nature, but a consequence of policies deliberately pursued by willing agents. It is a form of civil war waged not region versus region, but parasite versus producer. It can be prevented, or stopped in its tracks, if people choose to stop it. If.

[sjw]

"Demi....why you do this to me Demi...why!" the exorcist 1973....

give your mom a break !

The vent was not focused on her. Regardless of if it was or not, is what I said true or not?

I think you need a perspective adjustment.

First off, taxation is only part of the problem. The worst problem in my opinion isn't the taxes, it's the shackles -- the regulations and insidious laws that keep the productive from acting in the first place in order that they even could be taxed. This is wealth that is confiscated before it is even created. But only those who have ideas see this. The dregs of society only perceive taxes, for obvious reasons.

The most important part of you is that which strives and achieves. Society takes part of that by force, but you shouldn't let them wipe all of it out by sitting down and giving up. Atlas Shrugged is fiction. Rand didn't shrug, she didn't give up, she was more productive than most of us could dream of being. You shouldn't shrug either. You should identify what it is that makes you you, what you would want to do with your life, to create, and then pursue it relentlessly. Taxes are irrelevant to the fundamentals of what makes you you.

There is no Galt's Gulch to run to, there is no frontier anymore, there is only doing what you can to live your life, and to try to help fix the problems. If society collapses, it will be like a great skyscraper falling on all our heads. Your chance of getting out alive is only incrementally improved by the methods you're talking about. And suppose it doesn't collapse. Suppose 50 years from now we just keep muddling along, like England, or even that we had gotten out of this slump, as we did in the 70's, and there's some great recovery and next big technological push. And you spent your best years not learning, not growing, not producing, not making yourself better. You will look back and think "what a waste."

Shayne

[kiaer.ts]

"Demi....why you do this to me Demi...why!" the exorcist 1973....

give your mom a break !

The vent was not focused on her. Regardless of if it was or not, is what I said true or not?

I think you need a perspective adjustment.

First off, taxation is only part of the problem. The worst problem in my opinion isn't the taxes, it's the shackles -- the regulations and insidious laws that keep the productive from acting in the first place in order that they even could be taxed. This is wealth that is confiscated before it is even created. But only those who have ideas see this. The dregs of society only perceive taxes, for obvious reasons.

The most important part of you is that which strives and achieves. Society takes part of that by force, but you shouldn't let them wipe all of it out by sitting down and giving up. Atlas Shrugged is fiction. Rand didn't shrug, she didn't give up, she was more productive than most of us could dream of being. You shouldn't shrug either. You should identify what it is that makes you you, what you would want to do with your life, to create, and then pursue it relentlessly. Taxes are irrelevant to the fundamentals of what makes you you.

There is no Galt's Gulch to run to, there is no frontier anymore, there is only doing what you can to live your life, and to try to help fix the problems. If society collapses, it will be like a great skyscraper falling on all our heads. Your chance of getting out alive is only incrementally improved by the methods you're talking about. And suppose it doesn't collapse. Suppose 50 years from now we just keep muddling along, like England, or even that we had gotten out of this slump, as we did in the 70's, and there's some great recovery and next big technological push. And you spent your best years not learning, not growing, not producing, not making yourself better. You will look back and think "what a waste."

Shayne

Yes.

[equality72521]

Jimmy Carter Doesnt scare me Shayne.

FDR does.

When Jimmy Carter runs the country you don't shrug.

When FDR runs the country not only do you shrug, you go deep into the forest dig a deep deep hole, bury all your possessions, then plant claymores around the filled pit. Then you go deep into the mountains and hide until he is kicked out of office.

well either that or move to Texas and wait for it to secede.

[Selene]

There was no Galt Gulch at the beginning of the strike either.

Second, hundreds of thousands went on strike and none of them even saw the mountain range wherein the Gulch was hidden.

Night all.

[sjw]

"We are what we repeatedly do." --Aristotle

[Kimmler]

Jimmy Carter Doesnt scare me Shayne.

FDR does.

When Jimmy Carter runs the country you don't shrug.

When FDR runs the country not only do you shrug, you go deep into the forest dig a deep deep hole, bury all your possessions, then plant claymores around the filled pit. Then you go deep into the mountains and hide until he is kicked out of office.

well either that or move to Texas and wait for it to secede.

From wikipedia: -

"Over the last century starting overall government spending in the United States has increased substantially from about seven percent of GDP in 1902 to about 35 percent of GDP in 2010. Major spikes in spending occurred in World War I and World War II.

When broken down by major function, the history of government spending as a percent of GDP shows a slow and consistent increase in education spending; it shows the spikes in defense spending during World War I and World War II, and the sustained high level maintained during the Cold War. Spending on welfare shows a clear takeoff during the Great Depression and a modest decline following reform in 1996. Spending on pensions (primarily Social Security) begins to show up in the 1950s. Health care spending takes off after the birth of Medicare and Medicaid in the 1960s and shows sustained growth ever since."

Seems like every US president spends more than his predecessor. Reagan spend $170 billion more in his 1st term alone than Carter did. Then in his 2nd term spend $100 billion more than he did in his 1st term.

[Selene]

Jimmy Carter Doesnt scare me Shayne.

FDR does.

When Jimmy Carter runs the country you don't shrug.

When FDR runs the country not only do you shrug, you go deep into the forest dig a deep deep hole, bury all your possessions, then plant claymores around the filled pit. Then you go deep into the mountains and hide until he is kicked out of office.

well either that or move to Texas and wait for it to secede.

From wikipedia: -

"Over the last century starting overall government spending in the United States has increased substantially from about seven percent of GDP in 1902 to about 35 percent of GDP in 2010. Major spikes in spending occurred in World War I and World War II.

When broken down by major function, the history of government spending as a percent of GDP shows a slow and consistent increase in education spending; it shows the spikes in defense spending during World War I and World War II, and the sustained high level maintained during the Cold War. Spending on welfare shows a clear takeoff during the Great Depression and a modest decline following reform in 1996. Spending on pensions (primarily Social Security) begins to show up in the 1950s. Health care spending takes off after the birth of Medicare and Medicaid in the 1960s and shows sustained growth ever since."

Seems like every US president spends more than his predecessor. Reagan spend $170 billion more in his 1st term alone than Carter did. Then in his 2nd term spend $100 billion more than he did in his 1st term.

Steven:

I know this may come as a complete shock to a Brit, but the President of the US cannot spend a single dime of the taxpayers money.

See:

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, <a href="http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#IMPOST">Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

http://www.usconstit...nst_A1Sec8.html

Now here is a simple question. Since you obviously are fully capable of finding facts by your research. Who was in control of Congress during the Reagan presidency?

I won't be really cruel and ask you who has been in control of Congress out of the last one hundred years. That would be from 1910 to 2010. I am reasonably sure that you will not like the percentages which are overwhelmingly for the progressive/socialist wing of this country. We call them Democrats. The Republicans are pretty bad also, but up until the Bush Congress which was Republican for six (6) of the eight (8) years, they were semi-sane in terms of spending money.

Adam

Sorry, facts are stubborn parts of objective reality

Edited October 27, 2010 by Selene

[Mikee]

"Demi....why you do this to me Demi...why!" the exorcist 1973....

give your mom a break !

The vent was not focused on her. Regardless of if it was or not, is what I said true or not?

I think you need a perspective adjustment.

First off, taxation is only part of the problem. The worst problem in my opinion isn't the taxes, it's the shackles -- the regulations and insidious laws that keep the productive from acting in the first place in order that they even could be taxed. This is wealth that is confiscated before it is even created. But only those who have ideas see this. The dregs of society only perceive taxes, for obvious reasons.

The most important part of you is that which strives and achieves. Society takes part of that by force, but you shouldn't let them wipe all of it out by sitting down and giving up. Atlas Shrugged is fiction. Rand didn't shrug, she didn't give up, she was more productive than most of us could dream of being. You shouldn't shrug either. You should identify what it is that makes you you, what you would want to do with your life, to create, and then pursue it relentlessly. Taxes are irrelevant to the fundamentals of what makes you you.

There is no Galt's Gulch to run to, there is no frontier anymore, there is only doing what you can to live your life, and to try to help fix the problems. If society collapses, it will be like a great skyscraper falling on all our heads. Your chance of getting out alive is only incrementally improved by the methods you're talking about. And suppose it doesn't collapse. Suppose 50 years from now we just keep muddling along, like England, or even that we had gotten out of this slump, as we did in the 70's, and there's some great recovery and next big technological push. And you spent your best years not learning, not growing, not producing, not making yourself better. You will look back and think "what a waste."

Shayne

Exactly right.

[equality72521]

Jimmy Carter Doesnt scare me Shayne.

FDR does.

When Jimmy Carter runs the country you don't shrug.

When FDR runs the country not only do you shrug, you go deep into the forest dig a deep deep hole, bury all your possessions, then plant claymores around the filled pit. Then you go deep into the mountains and hide until he is kicked out of office.

well either that or move to Texas and wait for it to secede.

From wikipedia: -

"Over the last century starting overall government spending in the United States has increased substantially from about seven percent of GDP in 1902 to about 35 percent of GDP in 2010. Major spikes in spending occurred in World War I and World War II.

When broken down by major function, the history of government spending as a percent of GDP shows a slow and consistent increase in education spending; it shows the spikes in defense spending during World War I and World War II, and the sustained high level maintained during the Cold War. Spending on welfare shows a clear takeoff during the Great Depression and a modest decline following reform in 1996. Spending on pensions (primarily Social Security) begins to show up in the 1950s. Health care spending takes off after the birth of Medicare and Medicaid in the 1960s and shows sustained growth ever since."

Seems like every US president spends more than his predecessor. Reagan spend $170 billion more in his 1st term alone than Carter did. Then in his 2nd term spend $100 billion more than he did in his 1st term.

With two exceptions blaming a president for spending is like blaming your brother for you bouncing a check. The congress is the one who has the purse strings. BO and GW are the two exceptions, in the words of Beck 'they kept kicking the spending ball down the road, GW and BO picked it up and ran with it, right off a cliff.'

What worries me though is IF they are going to stop spending, will the seniors let them? The seniors could own up, they could pay the piper. My fear and what I see as more likely is that they will deliver the 2020 generation and those after into the hands of the reds.

[sjw]

It is collectivist to blame "seniors", particularly when many of them have contributed far more to the system than you have, and probably weren't taking out of the system (unlike you) until they retired, and many of them will never recover what they paid in. Further, many of them helped bring the state of civilization and technology to where it is now, which most people will observe is far better in many respects (even though the political and legal professions seem to be getting more and more backward).

Maybe we should draw class lines a little differently. Maybe we should put producers in one bin and parasites in another (what a novel idea!). How do things line up now?

Shayne

[sjw]

It would be interesting to see the "shruggers" point to some time in history when collapsing civilization led to some beneficial outcome. The one recent case, Weimar Germany, didn't lead to freedom, it led to Hitler.

This is the real world, it isn't fiction, and Rand wasn't trying to give people a blueprint for anything.

Shayne