The worst review of Atlas Shrugged?

[william.scherk]

Those who are intrigued/appalled by scathing reviews of Atlas Shrugged might want to have a gander at the post "What I Think About Atlas Shrugged" by John Scalzi at his Whatever blog. The review is unfair, unbalanced, sophomoric, and strangely . . . funny. The 300-odd comments that follow are sometimes hilarious also.

Here's a sample:

Indeed, the enduring popularity of Atlas Shrugged lies in the fact that it is nerd revenge porn — if you’re an nerd of an engineering-ish stripe who remembers all too well being slammed into your locker by a bunch of football dickheads, then the idea that people like you could make all those dickheads suffer by “going Galt” has a direct line to the pleasure centers of your brain. I’ll show you! the nerds imagine themselves crying. I’ll show you all! And then they disappear into a crevasse that Google Maps will not show because the Google people are our kind of people, and a year later they come out and everyone who was ever mean to them will have starved. Then these nerds can begin again, presumably with the help of robots, because any child in the post-Atlas Shrugged world who can’t figure out how to run a smelter within ten minutes of being pushed through the birth canal will be left out for the coyotes. Which if nothing else solves the problem of day care.

[Mike11]

The review was funny, and very generous.

[william.scherk]

The review was funny, and very generous.

The ensuing discussion is interesting also. I recommend it to those who wonder why some folks don't like Atlas Shrugged, and also wonder if anyone among those folk can give reasoned, relatively sober grounds for their dislike. I find it very instructive, but your mileage may vary. For some folks, Atlas Shrugged tends to Holy Scripture . . . if it didn't turn someone's crank, then that someone is probably some kind of morally-bankrupt demon spawn.

Although the non-Objectivish are found in about 250-to-1 ratio in the commentary, I find Objectivish opinion is given a relatively fair shake, considering how snarky and vile and uninformed a lot of anti-Rand commentaries can be.

[edited only for grammar lapse]

Edited October 6, 2010 by william.scherk

[Mike11]

Rand set herself up for it. It is not hard to misinterpret a slight detail and end up thinking she was a fascist. She wrote in such a manner that forced her to walk a tight rope.

[Kimmler]

How about this one by me? Atlas Shrugged is the worst novel ever written, don't buy it. Go to the library instead, see if it's there and borrow something else.

[Selene]

How about this one by me? Atlas Shrugged is the worst novel ever written, don't buy it. Go to the library instead, see if it's there and borrow something else.

Steven:

The best novel ever written, in your opinion, would be ________________?

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

I think the review is a good think piece.

--Brant

think

[Mike11]

I don't understand the fan fare AS has, Fountainhead was a far better book.

I almost liked it.

[Selene]

I don't understand the fan fare AS has, Fountainhead was a far better book.

I almost liked it.

Joel:

You are attracted to her ideas, but not her fiction?

Adam

[Jerry Biggers]

How about this one by me? Atlas Shrugged is the worst novel ever written, don't buy it. Go to the library instead, see if it's there and borrow something else.

Since Mr. Kimmler just recently started posting to this forum, I will give him the benefit of the doubt on his intentions, and suggest that he follow his own advice. While at the public library, perhaps he may wish to re-examine his own dismissal of the literary value of Atlas Shrugged by reading the following titles:

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged: A Philosophical and Literary Companion, ed. by Edward W. Younkins (Ashgate Publishing, 2007). Thirty-six academics who give reasons for a much more favorable opinion of the novel. If not available, he can order it through Amazon.com or at www.ashgate.com.

The Literary Art of Ayn Rand, ed. by William Thomas (The Objectivist Center, 2005. Available through Amazon.com).

Atlas Shrugged: Manifesto of the Mind. by Mimi Reisel Gladstein (N.Y., Twayne Pub., 2000)

What Art Is: The Esthetic Theory of Ayn Rand, by Louis Torres and Michelle Marder Kamhi (Open Court,2000, Amazon.com or www.aristos.org)

Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical, by Chris Matthew Sciabarra. (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1995).

Edited October 17, 2010 by Jerry Biggers

[kiaer.ts]

It may explain things for you to know Steven Johnston is a poster to Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature.

I think you guys are being Kimmled.

[BaalChatzaf]

It may explain things for you to know Steven Johnston is a poster to Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature.

I think you guys are being Kimmled.

What is Kimmled?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[kiaer.ts]

It may explain things for you to know Steven Johnston is a poster to Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature.

I think you guys are being Kimmled.

What is Kimmled?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Do you like Kipling?

[BaalChatzaf]

Do you like Kipling?

I like some of Kipling's poetry. Could you be plainer?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[mfgreaves]

It is not hard to misinterpret a slight detail and end up thinking she was a fascist.

Actually it *is hard* to end up thinking that, if you're actually thinking clearly and reading carefully.

For those with muddled thinking, or knee-jerk emotional reactions, of course, reaching almost any conclusion is possible; and that is the real problem: readers who become irrational when confronted with ideas contrary to their assumed, ingrained norms.

Mike

[Mike11]

Joel:

You are attracted to her ideas, but not her fiction?

Adam

I have a love hate relationship with Rand. On one hand the virtues of rationality, honesty and pride are good ones to have and I like that she stresses them. On the other hand I think she distorts and subverts these virtues in various ways.

Take rationality. The history of the Objectivist movement testifies how messed up she got that one. Ideas like philosophical detection endorsed what seems to me almost a self serving reading disorder that led directly to Fact and Value and all the wonderful things that document has led to.

Her ideas about honesty are basically on the mark but are a bit suspect to me. I think she said at one point, "One should be able to say at all times what one's views are on any matter and with specifically and entirely" (I paraphrase, maybe someone can find the exact quote?). I read in Barthes a few years ago that this idea of honesty, articulating views simply and completley at the drop of a hat, comes from, I believe, the French Terror (though it could have been some other witch hunting period). This does two things, it makes Objectivism that much more of a Cul.. less than open system, and reduces complex intellectual growth to sloganeering.

It seems like every time she takes a step forward she takes two back.

As for her fiction versus non fiction, its like moonshine. You can take it straight in its non fiction form, but it'll make you blind.

[Mike11]

It is not hard to misinterpret a slight detail and end up thinking she was a fascist.

Actually it *is hard* to end up thinking that, if you're actually thinking clearly and reading carefully.

For those with muddled thinking, or knee-jerk emotional reactions, of course, reaching almost any conclusion is possible; and that is the real problem: readers who become irrational when confronted with ideas contrary to their assumed, ingrained norms.

Mike

My days of not taking Randians seriously are definitely coming to a middle. I will thank you not to visit my intentions.

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?

Rand places a home for the mentally disadvantaged as the antithesis for the "Temple to the Human Spirit". At the center is a retarded genderless freak child with eyes of death. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?

Rand clearly placed civilization on a racial axis whereby all white societies were more civilized than the darker societies even when the darker skinned were clearly morally superior, ie Native Americans versus the Puritans they were largely exterminated by. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?

[BaalChatzaf]

<br>Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a <i>genetic superiority</i> over others. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?<br>Rand places a home for the mentally disadvantaged as the antithesis for the "Temple to the Human Spirit". At the center is a retarded genderless freak child with eyes of death. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?<br>Rand clearly placed civilization on a racial axis whereby all white societies were more civilized than the darker societies even when the darker skinned were clearly morally superior, ie Native Americans versus the Puritans they were largely exterminated by. What could possibly be borderline fascist about that?<br>

<br><br>The only "genetically" superior hero as Francisco D'anconia who represented the perfection of his line.  The Ueber Hero,  John Galt came from Nowhere genetically.   Even among the Lesser Ones,  Cherryl came from a family largely consisting of proletarian bums going nowhere fast.  She was a clear sport or mutant,  quite unlike her blood family.  Even among the Taggarts,  who for generations produced leaders in railroad transport,  Jim, who should have inherited superior characteristic was degenerate precisely because he chose bad values.  Choice is the antithesis of racial superiority.   Rand made the point again and again that people are self made for good or ill,  not gene made.  <br><br>I think your claims that Rand advocated the notion of racial superiority is unsupported in the story line.  <br><br>As to race, you will recall that Atlas Shrugged was published in 1956 and it was worked on through the 1940s.   There was no empirical basis for highly competent blacks in those days save for athletes in the Negro Baseball League and a few boxers and runners which I am sure Rand had no interest in.  In those days one simply did not expect high performance, high skill  and, if you will, high quality,  black folks.  Evaluate the seeming racism in the context of the time in which Rand wrote here great opus.<br><br>She made no mention of race nor did she implicitly use race as the basis of the superiority of her heroes.<div><br></div><div>Rand Heroes are made by their choices.  For example,  John Galt did not have to leave home at age 12, nor did he have to declare war against the Starnes heirs when they initiated their outrageous need based plan. He could have quit and that might have been the end of it.  Race did not enter into that decision.<br><br>Ba'al Chatzaf<br><br><br>

</div>

Edited October 18, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others.

Joel,

Do you have a quote to back that up?

Michael

[George H. Smith]

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others.

Joel,

Do you have a quote to back that up?

Michael

My thoughts exactly. I don't recall any such passage, nor have I ever heard it mentioned. It seems highly unlikely that such a bombshell passage would have gone unnoticed until now.

Ghs

[Selene]

Joel:

Thanks for your clear answer. I also dispute the "genetic superiority" statement, but I am not as well versed in the Randian record of the intervening years between 1972 and the last three (3) years. It is a long record to play catch up with.

As to your perceptions in general, I can understand your points. When I was attending NBI in the sixties, the warning signs were quite obvious to me. Not only in the dynamic of Nathanial and Ayn, two clearly strong personalities in a philosophical system which had room for only one titular head, but the adorational glow from the acolytes at the NBI lectures.

I understood the adoration because I shared it. Moreover, the way I was raised and the message that Ayn espoused reinforced asking questions, analyzing premises and being logical. Therefore, I was less prone to the "true believer" problem that was clearly growing in the NBI orbit of influence.

Finally, the apolitical stance that the inner circle espoused was just not rational to me. As messy as politics is, it was the path that could have made a significant long term difference. I know for a fact that when I was placed in positions of power, I worked tirelessly to decentralize that power to the local businessperson, community of taxpaying citizens and ultimately to the individual. It was a significant challenge to blend the rights of the individual within the engineering requirements of large scale highways projects in New York City. However, we accomplished that goal.

Ba'al, I disagree with your analysis concerning Ayn and "the darkies." She had more than ample examples in the history of her beloved adopted country to not make those judgments. I was continually astounded by the absence of "color" at the Empire State Building lectures. I mean this was NY City.

"Roots of Black Capitalism can be found in the lives of "Free Negroes" during times of the American Enslavement. Many records exist reporting the development of economic wealth by these "Free Negroes". The earliest recorded words touting the economic upliftment of African Americans by an African American was written by Lewis Woodson under the pen name "Augustine" in the Coloured American newspaper. Woodson helped found Wilberforce University and the first AME Theological seminary, Payne Theological Seminary and was an early teacher and mentor of Martin Delany.

A prominent southern affluent Black was A. G. Gaston who was, at times, instrumental in the civil rights movement. Galston was influenced by Booker T. Washington, who was an early leader at the Tuskegee Institute. Another wealthy African American was Robert Reed Church, who founded the nation's first Black-owned bank, Solvent Savings, in 1906.

There are many historical and current examples of neighborhoods of prominent and affluent Blacks in American history. Some include the historical Highland Beach, Maryland and more recently Mount Airy in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Prince George County, Maryland and DeKalb County, Georgia. Mainstream media identifies this with some interest.^[1]"

"The Tulsa race riot was a large scale racially-motivated conflict between the white and black communities of Tulsa, Oklahoma, including aerial attack, beginning May 31, 1921. During the 16 hours of the assault, over 800 people were admitted to local hospitals with injuries, an estimated 10,000 were left homeless, and 35 city blocks composed of 1,256 residences were destroyed by fire caused by bombing." http://en.wikipedia....Tulsa_race_riot Tulsa was known as the Black Wall Street by the way.

"During the first half of the 20th century, the largest internal population shift in U.S. history took place. Starting about 1910, through the Great Migration over five million African Americans made choices and "voted with their feet" by moving from the South to northern cities, the West and Midwest in hopes of escaping political discrimination and hatred, violence, finding better jobs, voting and enjoying greater equality and education for their children. In the 1920s, the concentration of blacks in New York led to the cultural movement known as the Harlem Renaissance, whose influence reached nationwide. Black intellectual and cultural circles were influenced by thinkers such as Aimé Césaire and Léopold Sédar Senghor, who celebrated blackness, or négritude; and arts and letters flourished. Writers Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, Claude McKay and Richard Wright; and artists Lois Mailou Jones, William H. Johnson, Romare Bearden, Jacob Lawrence and Archibald Motley gained prominence.

The South Side of Chicago, a destination for many on the trains up from Mississippi and Louisiana, became the black capital of America, generating flourishing businesses, music, arts and foods. A new generation of powerful African American political leaders and organizations also came to the fore. Membership in the NAACP rapidly increased as it mounted an anti-lynching campaign in reaction to ongoing southern white violence against blacks. Marcus Garvey's Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Communities League, the Nation of Islam, and union organizer A. Philip Randolph's Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters all were established during this period and found support among African Americans, who became urbanized."

Applying Ayn's own standards of truth seeking, there would be no justification for not being aware of black capitalism in America since it was contemporaneous to her time and pretty obvious.

Adam

Behttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riottween 1824 and 195http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot1 there were over 300 events classified as "White Race Riots" in which entire white communities turned on and destroyed entire Black communities and murdered Blacks in mass. There were 26 such major events and hundreds of smaller ones in major cities and towns across the US during the summer of 1919 alone. This period has been tagged by historians as "The Red Summer of 1919", because many of the events happened from May to October of that year and the blood of their victims literally painted the streets of America. Between 1824 and 1951 there were over 300 events classified as "White Race Riots" in which entire white communities turned on and destroyed entire Black communities and murdered Blacks in mass. There were 26 such major events and hundreds of smaller ones in major cities and towns across the US during the summer of 1919 alone. This period has been tagged by historians as "The Red Summer of 1919", because many of the events happened from May to October of that year and the blood of their victims literally painted the streets of America.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Selene

[Mike11]

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others.

Joel,

Do you have a quote to back that up?

Michael

I wrote that wrong, I was ticked at the one I was replying to. I should not have combined the fact that her heroes are all white with her comment on genetics. So break my first point into -

1) Rand's heroes were universally White, this gives a racist impression to many.

2) Rand's writing has shades of eugenics. In her Journals she uses the metaphor of genetics to express what makes one person's sense of life superior to another's - its in the Blood. This is further seen in the Stoddard Temple Sequence. A young girl is learning, being creative, and enjoying life - presumably good from an Objectivist standpoint. Yet because of her genetic mental disability she is described as a genderless freak and antithesis of the Objectivist Ideal. Ayn seems to think in eugenicist terms.

Both of these can give the impression Rand falls into the Fascist line of thinking.

Anyway the quote in question is in the first hundred pages or so of her Journals (which from what I gather were heavily altered) if I get a chance today I'll go down to the library to try and get it.

See, Michael and Selene ask something reasonable and get a reasonable response. Learn from that Mike.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Joel Mac Donald

[Brant Gaede]

1) Rand's heroes were universally White, this gives a racist impression to many.

2) Rand's writing has shades of eugenics. In her Journals she uses the metaphor of genetics to express what makes one person's sense of life superior to another's - its in the Blood. This is further seen in the Stoddard Temple Sequence. A young girl is learning, being creative, and enjoying life - presumably good from an Objectivist standpoint. Yet because of her genetic mental disability she is described as a genderless freak and antithesis of the Objectivist Ideal. Ayn seems to think in eugenicist terms.

Both of these can give the impression Rand falls into the Fascist line of thinking.

Anyway the quote in question is in the first hundred pages or so of her Journals (which from what I gather were heavily altered) if I get a chance today I'll go down to the library to try and get it.

See, Michael and Selene ask something reasonable and get a reasonable response. Learn from that Mike.

You mean, the white girl?

--Brant

both Toohey and Mouch were black and Thompson is an obvious analogue to Obama

fascist is commonly a smear term used by--fascists: aka, liberals, socialists and communists against freedom lovers like Rand

Edited October 20, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[kiaer.ts]

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others.

Joel,

Do you have a quote to back that up?

Michael

I wrote that wrong, I was ticked at the one I was replying to. I should not have combined the fact that her heroes are all white with her comment on genetics. So break my first point into -

1) Rand's heroes were universally White, this gives a racist impression to many.

2) Rand's writing has shades of eugenics. In her Journals she uses the metaphor of genetics to express what makes one person's sense of life superior to another's - its in the Blood. This is further seen in the Stoddard Temple Sequence. A young girl is learning, being creative, and enjoying life - presumably good from an Objectivist standpoint. Yet because of her genetic mental disability she is described as a genderless freak and antithesis of the Objectivist Ideal. Ayn seems to think in eugenicist terms.

Both of these can give the impression Rand falls into the Fascist line of thinking.

Anyway the quote in question is in the first hundred pages or so of her Journals (which from what I gather were heavily altered) if I get a chance today I'll go down to the library to try and get it.

See, Michael and Selene ask something reasonable and get a reasonable response. Learn from that Mike.

Yes, Brant is right. You are using Fascist as if it were a primary and your assertion were self-demonstrating, in no need of support. Good luck with that.

[Livemike]

Rand explains in her Journals that her universally Aryan heroes have a genetic superiority over others.

Joel,

Do you have a quote to back that up?

Michael

I'm guessing it's in the same place where Rand said that Franciso D'anconia was aryan.