Obama endorses the Ground Zero mosque

[sjw]

Another Lew Rockwell article:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer222.html

[sjw]

Site advocating reforming Islam, explicitly repudiates Sharia (NB: I have not read through this in detail):

http://www.reformislam.org

[Selene]

There seems to be a spate of organizations out there.

http://www.freemuslims.org/

"About Free Muslims Coalition

The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.

The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts.

The Free Muslims promotes a modern secular interpretation of Islam which is peace-loving, democracy-loving and compatible with other faiths and beliefs. The Free Muslims' efforts are unique; it is the only mainstream American-Muslim organization willing to attack extremism and terrorism unambiguously. Unfortunately most other Muslim leaders believe that in terrorist organizations, the end justifies the means.

As written recently by Khaled Kishtainy, columnist at Al-Sharq Al-Awsat Newspaper, "I place on the Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations part of the responsibility for [this phenomenon] of Islamic terrorism, as nearly all of them advocate violence, and repress anyone who casts doubts upon this. Naturally, every so often they have written about the love and peace of Islam – but they did so, at best, for purposes of propaganda and defense of Islam. Their basic position is that this religion was established by the sword, acts by the sword, and will triumph by the sword, and that any doubt regarding this constitutes a conspiracy against the Muslims."

The Free Muslims finds this sympathetic support for terrorists by Muslim leaders and intellectuals to be a dangerous trend and the Free Muslims will challenge these beliefs and target the sympathetic support given to terrorists by Muslims.

The Free Muslims encourages Muslims and Arabs to be proud of their faith and at the same time critical. The community of the faithful must now take steps to bring Islam into the 21st century. As the Free Muslim’s founder recently said, "The only way that we as a people can make a profound difference and improve the quality of life for all Muslims is if all of us make a difference individually."

Other Americans have spoken up against terrorism, but never before has this message come with such clarity from Muslims or Arabs. Muslims are the only ones who can resolve the problem of terror in Islam, and sadly until the founding of this Free Muslims, they were the only group who had not definitively spoken up against the use of terror."

Adam

[sjw]

This debate is now officially over, The Onion has weighed in:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990

[anthony]

Site advocating reforming Islam, explicitly repudiates Sharia (NB: I have not read through this in detail):

http://www.reformislam.org

Encouraging signs if this gains momentum.

When will the mainstream, moderate Muslims make themselves heard? - has been a constant refrain for years.

[sjw]

Is this justice? Is this military heroism?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

"Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinain schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified

· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice"

[Darrell Hougen]

There seems to be a spate of organizations out there.

http://www.freemuslims.org/

"About Free Muslims Coalition

The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.

The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts...

I wish such organizations good luck. In the short run, a reformed Islam is probably the only realistic path to peace. However, in the long run, I am concerned that Reformed Islam will be to Islam what Socialism is to Communism, a religion that is still fundamentally incompatible with freedom and individual rights. I guess it depends upon the degree of reform, and only time will tell what the result will be.

Darrell

[sjw]

However, in the long run, I am concerned that Reformed Islam will be to Islam what Socialism is to Communism, a religion that is still fundamentally incompatible with freedom and individual rights. I guess it depends upon the degree of reform, and only time will tell what the result will be.

Darrell

Meanwhile, back at the farm.... http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/north_bay&id=7639987

Shayne

[sjw]

If you feel you want to fight me

There's a chain around your mind

When something's holding you tightly

What is real is so hard to find...

Can't you see that we've really bought into

Every word they proclaimed and every lie, oh...

Someone's feeding on your anger

Someone's been whispering in your ear

You've seen his face before

You've been played before

These aren't the words you need to hear...

Through the dawn of darkness blindly

You have blood upon your hands...

Every man is his own prophet

Oh every prophet just a man...

Let every man bow to the best in himself

We're not killing any more....

"Out of our Heads," Sheryl Crow

[Libertarian Muslim]

Site advocating reforming Islam, explicitly repudiates Sharia (NB: I have not read through this in detail):

http://www.reformislam.org

Encouraging signs if this gains momentum.

When will the mainstream, moderate Muslims make themselves heard? - has been a constant refrain for years.

I'm sorry, but there are not moderate Muslims on that site. There are several Jews, Zionists of course and one Muslim who betrayed his religion by working for the Soviet Union's propaganda machine during the 80's.

Also, what makes you say that moderate Muslims don't speak up about issues? They do.. Have you looked for it or have you just expected it to come to you?

Is this justice? Is this military heroism?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

"Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinain schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified

· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice"

I'm surprised no one commented on the article in your quote.. Or maybe I shouldn't be so surprised by it..

There seems to be a spate of organizations out there.

http://www.freemuslims.org/

"About Free Muslims Coalition

The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.

The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts...

I wish such organizations good luck. In the short run, a reformed Islam is probably the only realistic path to peace. However, in the long run, I am concerned that Reformed Islam will be to Islam what Socialism is to Communism, a religion that is still fundamentally incompatible with freedom and individual rights. I guess it depends upon the degree of reform, and only time will tell what the result will be.

Darrell

Islam isn't what requires reform.. It's people's interpretation of it.. I know you may think they are the same thing but they're not. One is changing the religion, the other is changing the people to fit more in line with the religion.. It makes Muslims feel suspicious when people talk about reforming their religion, as if the religion is the thing which is at fault.. Islam isn't at fault.. It's people that are.

Meanwhile, back at the farm.... http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/north_bay&id=7639987

Shayne

Outrageous.. In his own home? That is preposterous.. The officer should be fired and charged with serious assault..

[sjw]

Outrageous.. In his own home? That is preposterous.. The officer should be fired and charged with serious assault..

Adonis, in America, "Land of Free", we have to bow down to the cops and lick their boots. When they say "jump" we say "how high." When we go to court and they lie about what we allegedly did, we have to submit to their higher authority. And of course we must never take notice of the fact that it's not really the cops who are lording their higher authority over us.

Didn't you get the memo?

Shayne

[Libertarian Muslim]

Outrageous.. In his own home? That is preposterous.. The officer should be fired and charged with serious assault..

Adonis, in America, "Land of Free", we have to bow down to the cops and lick their boots. When they say "jump" we say "how high." When we go to court and they lie about what we allegedly did, we have to submit to their higher authority. And of course we must never take notice of the fact that it's not really the cops who are lording their higher authority over us.

Didn't you get the memo?

Shayne

That's why I'm fond of the Sheriff system.. You can vote your Sheriff in, if his officers are jerks and he doesn't reprimand them you can vote the Sheriff out..

In Western Australia the police illegally Tazed a man after he intervened to them attacking his son who was a good samaritan coming to the aid of a local pub owner who had violent people in her pub..

His son then ran up to the police officer and launched himself into the air towards the officer, his head connected with the police officer's head and knocked the officer down.. The officer was left paralyzed on one side of his body.

The son was charged with serious bodily harm, as was the father and another son but were all acquitted because it was self defense.. The officers had no right to do that, they hadn't even placed the son under arrest, they just started beating him..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPRX1ULuPRw

[sjw]

Adonis,

It's certainly a good thing to have the most power concentrated locally. Maybe that's why we have to crush Afghanistan: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01lafortune.html?_r=2.

Shayne

[anthony]

Site advocating reforming Islam, explicitly repudiates Sharia (NB: I have not read through this in detail):

http://www.reformislam.org

Encouraging signs if this gains momentum.

When will the mainstream, moderate Muslims make themselves heard? - has been a constant refrain for years.

I'm sorry, but there are not moderate Muslims on that site. There are several Jews, Zionists of course and one Muslim who betrayed his religion by working for the Soviet Union's propaganda machine during the 80's.

Also, what makes you say that moderate Muslims don't speak up about issues? They do.. Have you looked for it or have you just expected it to come to you?

Is this justice? Is this military heroism?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

"Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinain schoolgirl

· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified

· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice"

I'm surprised no one commented on the article in your quote.. Or maybe I shouldn't be so surprised by it..

There seems to be a spate of organizations out there.

http://www.freemuslims.org/

"About Free Muslims Coalition

The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.

The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts...

I wish such organizations good luck. In the short run, a reformed Islam is probably the only realistic path to peace. However, in the long run, I am concerned that Reformed Islam will be to Islam what Socialism is to Communism, a religion that is still fundamentally incompatible with freedom and individual rights. I guess it depends upon the degree of reform, and only time will tell what the result will be.

Darrell

Islam isn't what requires reform.. It's people's interpretation of it.. I know you may think they are the same thing but they're not. One is changing the religion, the other is changing the people to fit more in line with the religion.. It makes Muslims feel suspicious when people talk about reforming their religion, as if the religion is the thing which is at fault.. Islam isn't at fault.. It's people that are.

Meanwhile, back at the farm.... http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/north_bay&id=7639987

Shayne

Outrageous.. In his own home? That is preposterous.. The officer should be fired and charged with serious assault..

Adonis,

There you go again...switching from conciliatory, to arrogant, and back again, at will.

It's called "having your cake, and eating it". - While many thoughtful people here are having a good look at themselves, and questioning their long-held prejudices regarding Islam, you appear to take that as appeasement or weakness. (And couldn't be more wrong.)

First, with 1.5 billion Muslims - and thousands living around me, personally - I should not have to go searching for those few, dissenting voices. But,for whatever reasons, all that hits the media is a deathly hush.

In contrast, you may (or may not, in your selective vision) have noticed the furore that erupts in the tiny Jewish communities - in South Africa, similarly in Australasia - whenever Israel stuffs up, or commits real or perceived atrocities: letters to the papers, petitions, even demonstrations outside the Embassy.

They are disgusted at the loss of innocent lives in Palestine, and while they usually don't recognise the full reality, imo, they do help keep Israel from becoming complacent and arrogant. So where is the billion-strong Muslim outcry against the minority of Islamacists, and their terror tactics? Are they scared to speak up?

Second, what is a "Zionist"? To you?

If I'd have lived at that time when Zionists were advocating a homeland for Jews, I know I would have supported it unreservedly - albeit as an atheist, which many were. So you can call me a Zionist, too.

Zionism was an idea, and a necessary and rational idea, which actually became superfluous when Israel came into existence.

Your prejudice reveals itself when you use that word; just as Westerners who call every Muslim a 'jihadist', do.

Attack your own fellow fundamentalist Muslims, as vociferously -and demonstrate it in other places than only this forum - and I'll stop accusing you of having double standards.

Tony

[sjw]

Amazing Atheist:

[Darrell Hougen]

However, in the long run, I am concerned that Reformed Islam will be to Islam what Socialism is to Communism, a religion that is still fundamentally incompatible with freedom and individual rights. I guess it depends upon the degree of reform, and only time will tell what the result will be.

Darrell

Meanwhile, back at the farm.... http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/north_bay&id=7639987

Shayne

Personally, I am not particularly fond of the police. I have seen reports of numerous pointless police shootings over the years. Now, the police have tasers, so they are less likely to kill people but even more trigger-happy than they were before.

Still, I would characterize the tasering in the video linked above as an isolated incident. The purpose of the police is not to taser innocent people. They probably shouldn't have been in the man's house. They were probably violating police procedure. They may have even broken laws.

A country or state or society, under a particular government, can have different kinds of problems at different levels. It may have problems of principle; it may or may not be constructed with the purpose of protecting individual rights. It may have problems of policy; the broad methods used to implement its principles may or may not be conducive to the defense of individual rights. It may have problems of implementation; the people implementing the policies may or may not be effective in defending individual rights. Moreover, problems of implementation may exist any any level from the highest levels of government down to the policeman on the street.

In the above incident, it appears that the police officers at the scene used poor judgment. That may be their individual problem or they may not have been properly trained. It may be that such problems are pervasive in the department which could indicate a failure in leadership. That, in turn, may reflect poor judgment on the part of the mayor that appointed the police chief. I have no idea, from the video, what people might have been involved in the failure.

Recently, in Denver, we have had an unusual (and unacceptable) number of cases of cases of police brutality, which, in my view, indicates a systemic failure and implicates people higher up in the chain of command.

However, neither the video nor the current problems in Denver indicate a problem with either fundamental principles or broad policies. That doesn't mean that such problems don't exist, but an isolated incident of police brutality doesn't implicate either the principles or the policies.

What would the solution be? Eliminate the police and let people fend for themselves? Let possies go after bad guys and string them up with no chance of a trial?

When I commented on my concerns about Islam, I was implying that I am concerned with the principles underlying it or at least portions of it as it is practiced today. I am concerned about the principles of Sharia.

A society can have problems at a number of different levels. Adopting bad principles will not eliminate problems of bad policing. It will simply make matters worse. Then, in addition to isolated cases of poor judgment, we may have people purposefully jailed on principle and in full accordance with policy that have done nothing wrong. Moreover, such cases are likely to far exceed the number of cases of poor judgment. In Soviet Russia, tens of millions of people were sent to gulags.

I'm not saying that you support Communism or Socialism or Sharia, but I simply don't see the comparison between isolated cases of police brutality and fundamental issues of principle and policy.

Darrell

[sjw]

Still, I would characterize the tasering in the video linked above as an isolated incident. The purpose of the police is not to taser innocent people. They probably shouldn't have been in the man's house. They were probably violating police procedure. They may have even broken laws.

Well, it's obvious from the video that the policeman broke laws, he assaulted the man. Further, one can observe the common pattern of police behavior: telling the man he was "resisting" by just sitting there in non-compliance, and using that as a justification to taser. This happens over and over again.

But the way we know that this is not an "isolated incident" is we observe what happens when cases like this go to trial. Sometimes justice is indeed served, but often it is not, and glaringly so. This indicates a systemic problem, not fundamentally with the cops, but with the legal system. The legal system is causing incidents such as this. This is obvious to anyone who has been made a victim and has had to go through the farce themselves. It may not be obvious to people who have been lucky enough to never have this happen to them, and who don't pay attention to what is happening to other people either.

One can observe the farce in cases as mundane as traffic tickets. E.g., in some states, not even a radar gun is needed to "prove" that someone was speeding, the cop can just declare that the motorist seemed to be going fast. In any case, the cop's word is always taken by the courts as being more credible than the citizen. This is a recipe for abuse, and that is precisely what it's causing.

Shayne

[Libertarian Muslim]

There you go again...switching from conciliatory, to arrogant, and back again, at will.

It's called "having your cake, and eating it". - While many thoughtful people here are having a good look at themselves, and questioning their long-held prejudices regarding Islam, you appear to take that as appeasement or weakness. (And couldn't be more wrong.)

Where was I arrogant? In saying that Islam doesn't require reform? If a Muslim didn't believe Islam were perfect then there would be no point on being Muslim, because we believe that Islam is from God and as God is perfect, the message delivered through the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him should be too.

That is why we state, that it's not Islam that needs reformation, rather it's the Muslim community that requires this reformation to get in line with proper Islamic teachings.

First, with 1.5 billion Muslims - and thousands living around me, personally - I should not have to go searching for those few, dissenting voices. But,for whatever reasons, all that hits the media is a deathly hush.

In contrast, you may (or may not, in your selective vision) have noticed the furore that erupts in the tiny Jewish communities - in South Africa, similarly in Australasia - whenever Israel stuffs up, or commits real or perceived atrocities: letters to the papers, petitions, even demonstrations outside the Embassy.

They are disgusted at the loss of innocent lives in Palestine, and while they usually don't recognise the full reality, imo, they do help keep Israel from becoming complacent and arrogant. So where is the billion-strong Muslim outcry against the minority of Islamacists, and their terror tactics? Are they scared to speak up?

You don't hear about it because you're not within groups that are on the receiving end and you're not a Muslim.. We don't do it to appease your lazy and ignorant self who can't be bothered getting off your backside to go and search for truth and instead expect it to be handed to you and therefore, are a slave to the corporate media who profits off of fear mongering..

Muslims always protest against such terrorism, sure it may not be done in the same way that you would expect it to be done by writing letters to the editor or protesting outside of embassies, we do it in our mosques and community groups because we are a religious group addressing issues within our groups, therefore we address our religious congregation. I've also lived in the Middle East, have you? I've seen people work against extremism there, they do grass roots work..

But of course you'd never hear about it because it doesn't sell newspapers..

Second, what is a "Zionist"? To you?

If I'd have lived at that time when Zionists were advocating a homeland for Jews, I know I would have supported it unreservedly - albeit as an atheist, which many were. So you can call me a Zionist, too.

A Zionist is one who promotes the idea that despite the fact that there were already people living in Palestine who'd been there basically uninterrupted for the same period as the Jews, that Jews who historically came from that land but had been in Europe for quite some time have a divine right to those lands in Palestine specifically that is more of a right than those people already living there and that a state should be created in those lands that was reservedly for Jews and was all about a Jewish identity.

Zionism was an idea, and a necessary and rational idea, which actually became superfluous when Israel came into existence.

Your prejudice reveals itself when you use that word; just as Westerners who call every Muslim a 'jihadist', do.

Why was it necessary? It's simple, because for more than one thousand years the West has not stopped persecuting the Jews, the Jews couldn't go a century without being persecuted by one group or another, so to stop genocidal Westerners from doing it again after WW2, Jews were fully supported to go to 'The Holy Land' and told to live there and essentially forced into conflict with Arabs.

The major group at fault here is not the Zionists Jews, their occupation of Palestinian land is reactionary borne out of persecution from the West, it's a degree of criminal self defense.. Ie oppressing one life to save their own which can hardly be blamed on them.. The West should be held accountable for the creation of Israel due to the West's unfettered genocidal Antisemitism towards Jews. Yet here you are, another Westerner blaming the whole situation on the Arabs, as if the Arabs were responsible for the one of many Holocausts of Jews over the last 1000 years.. Get real..

Muslims have historically been the ones who've protected Jews from the persecution of the West and now because of the West's own trouble making and persecution of Jews and essentially forcing them out of Europe to one point on earth where you could heap them altogether out of your own societies yet profit off of the achievements and immense wealth they've brought to your nations, you've put one brother against another in a war that has no real justice anywhere.. And who benefits? Arabs? No.. Palestine's been occupied for 60 years now.. The Jewish Zionists? No, they've been occupying a state and been in warfare for the same amount of time.. Who benefits? The West, because Western savages got as they wished.. They got most of the Jews out of their countries just like they wanted to and still weren't made to look like the bad guys..

It's like having a really bad anger management problem and not being able to control yourself and then taking it out on your wife by constantly beating her bloody and then having the audacity to say to her that it's in her best interests to go back to her mothers' house if she doesn't want to be beaten anymore as if you have no responsibility to change yourself.. How about you just stop beating her you jerk..

The West bears the most responsibility for this whole mess.. Not the Jews who are Zionists and acting oppressively in self defense and certainly not the Arabs who are defending themselves and trying to liberate their lands from occupation..

Attack your own fellow fundamentalist Muslims, as vociferously -and demonstrate it in other places than only this forum - and I'll stop accusing you of having double standards.

You assume I don't do this.. I do attack such ideas and encourage those who do the same as I..

I've addressed youth, I've addressed prisoners, I've addressed scholars and I've also addressed terrorists who were plotting big attacks against cities in Australia and were caught..

The fact is that no terrorist suspect would be captured anywhere without the good Muslims who approached the authorities with concerns about their behavior.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Libertarian Muslim]

Edited September 2, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[anthony]

Adonis,

I strongly believe that in the near future most Americans will look back at this mosque 'issue', and see it for what it is, a storm (hurricane?) in a teacup. American Muslims will eventually be seen as just one more religious group of citizens who primarily and readily pay allegiance to their country.

What won't go away in a hurry are the other world 'hot spots', where the fear of Islamic domination, and conversely of Western domination, remains on the boil.

Israel, imo, is a microcosm of the larger picture; it's a lesson and a warning to the rest of us. However, if Palestine and Israel can get it right, then anyone can.

Abbas and Netanyahu are meeting at present - driven, I guess, mainly by mutual exhaustion. (One of the saving graces of humanity is that it is impossible to hate forever. Eventually, reality and reason win out.)

I do sympathise to a degree with your point that the West foisted the Jews onto Palestine as a solution to getting them out of the way (and maybe saving themselves guilt).

But this was a long time ago; Israel exists, and is not going away. When and if Palestinans accept that, then all that will be left is the nitty-gritty of negotiating permanent borders, and mutual rights. The PLO has showed willing, but Hamas still needs to wake up, and get real - for their own self-interest, ultimately.

Arabs and Israelis would rather, truth be told, find pleasure in doing business deals with each other - trade is their whole raison d'etre. Along with intellectual and creative pursuits, that is.

Let's see what comes out of these latest talks.

Tony

[sjw]

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/daxf3/my_father_is_a_26year_veteran_of_the_armed_forces

[sjw]

If this guy would just burn some Bibles too, to fully underscore the free speech aspect I could stand behind him:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1310035/9-11-Koran-burning-US-teacher-Afghanistan-pleads-pastor-Terry-Jones.html

Anderson Cooper makes me sick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNovySxaWw

I don't have any polite words for this unprincipled .... At least he let the pastor point out that they weren't killing anyone, they were just burning books, contrary to the totalitarian Islam side.

[sjw]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/florida.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=T1

So NOW, when a private citizen is burning a book, does the Federal Government become concerned about blowback. What a sad joke.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Shayne,

I wrote the following on another thread dealing with this.

I just had an outside-the-box thought.

If I were in the Western intelligence community, I would be thrilled about an idiot like pastor Terry Jones doing what he is doing.

I believe the vast majority of Muslims are not going to give his idiocy any more thought than something like I did: they will feel this thing is distasteful and they will try to be bigger than the implications. Then they will get on with their lives.

But, if we look a little deeper, look at the gains to the intelligence community.

1. Pastor Terry Jones is a cult leader (even his own daughter calls him that), so if something happens to him, not all that many people will get upset. He preaches self-sacrifice and--Islamist kooks being what they are--will likely get to practice it, but the bottom line is that, for political purposes, he, himself, is so kooky he is expendable.

2. The Muslims who are going ballistic over this are Muslims who go ballistic. They're the bad guys. At this very moment, they're sticking their faces right into cameras and saying, "I'm the one who's the enemy." Who needs covert operations to discover anything when the bad guys are shouting in public at you? All you have to do is take pictures and take names, then follow up later.

3. If a top dog like General Petraeus comes out in public with a message against our kook, and even says that we need to do something about our kook because our kook will antagonize their kooks, he makes it look like America is afraid of their kooks--and this makes their kooks come out into the public and swagger even more. Maybe some who are more cautious will be moved by bravado to come out.

4. General Petraeus gets the added benefit of showing to that vast majority of Muslims (who are not kooks) that the USA military does not condone insulting them. Hell, even Obama has jumped on that bandwagon.

Talk about smoke and mirrors--the intelligence community had this subterfuge fall right into their laps. No wonder someone with the prestige and media clout of General Petraeus commented on it. All the intelligence community has to do is nudge it a little bit with bogus outrage from American leaders and they get a windfall. And the bogus outrage can even be real outrage (not many people like burning holy books on principle) as gravy.

OK, this is speculation, but these dots sure fit together real well.

This thing is morphing, though. I see some potential unintended consequences looming their ugly heads on top of my speculations, especially now that other world leaders are getting involved.

I wonder what would happen if Obama declared an emergency and simply threw the pastor and his flock into jail.

We would be able to impeach him.

How's that for a happy thought?

Michael

[sjw]

Ahmadinejad tweets on book burning:

http://twitter.com/M_Ahmadinejad/status/24007026734