Islam

[BaalChatzaf]

You also didn't say "Extreme Muslim" earlier and you haven't defined that.

I'd also like to know how many Muslims you observed for your opinion here. I find it hard to make such generalizations -- maybe because, unlike you, I simply haven't met many of the supposedly hundreds of millions of them on the planet. I've only met a handful -- at least, self-identified ones. And the ones I've met seem to range all over the place, from people who are fun to be on down to people who are not -- like the many non-Muslims I've met.

(The same applies to ten or twenty million Jews in the world. I've only met a handful of them -- again, self-indentified ones. Again, they seem to range all over the place.)

I visited the hole in the ground where the WTC used to be. That told me what I needed to know.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[dan2100]

You also didn't say "Extreme Muslim" earlier and you haven't defined that.

I'd also like to know how many Muslims you observed for your opinion here. I find it hard to make such generalizations -- maybe because, unlike you, I simply haven't met many of the supposedly hundreds of millions of them on the planet. I've only met a handful -- at least, self-identified ones. And the ones I've met seem to range all over the place, from people who are fun to be on down to people who are not -- like the many non-Muslims I've met.

(The same applies to ten or twenty million Jews in the world. I've only met a handful of them -- again, self-indentified ones. Again, they seem to range all over the place.)

I visited the hole in the ground where the WTC used to be. That told me what I needed to know.

Ba'al Chatzaf

This is the same as an Ancient Roman visiting Masada and saying, about Ancient Hebrews, "That told me what I needed to know."

Again, be sure to stay back five meters from me.

[Libertarian Muslim]

I visited the hole in the ground where the WTC used to be. That told me what I needed to know.

Ba'al Chatzaf

And when Muslims use the same type of reasoning to judge all Americans by the MILLIONS of those who have died due to US aggression and imperialism or judge the Jews by the actions of the likes of the Hilltop Youth and the other Extremists like terrorists Rabbi Meir Kahane (who promoted driving the Arabs from Israel through force) and Baruch Goldstein (who walked into a mosque and killed men and boys with an M16) and used that to justify acts of extremism we're called terrorists..

That's what Al Qaeda is..

You are just like Al Qaeda.. The only difference between you and them is that you were born a Jew and not a Muslim, however if you were raised a Muslim you'd be amongst their ranks, preaching their hate filled messages, judging and calling for the death of Jews and Americans.. But instead being born a Jew has made you the opposite, judging and calling for the death of Muslims..

The immense hate that you have for Al Qaeda is the hate that you have for yourself and your sick mind and soul..

What a terrible wasted life you must have lived for all of these years..

Edited May 15, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Brant Gaede]

Are "extreme" Jews?

--Brant

When was the last time Jewish fanatics committed suicide/homicide? Back about the time of Matzada, I think

Ba'al Chatzaf

The creation of Israel? The Warsaw Ghetto?

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Are "extreme" Jews?

--Brant

When was the last time Jewish fanatics committed suicide/homicide? Back about the time of Matzada, I think

Ba'al Chatzaf

The creation of Israel? The Warsaw Ghetto?

--Brant

The Jews that fought in the Warsaw Ghetto were fighting for their lives against the Nazi who initiated aggression upon then. It was partisan combat, not terrorist. There were no German civilians involved in that fight.

As to the creation of Israel, it was the Muslim and Arabs who attempted to destroy the Jewish enclave. They failed. They tried again several times and so far have failed each time. The pre-emptive strikes of the 67 war were against Egyptian and Syrian military installations. It was war, not terrorism.

You would be hard pressed to find an instance of Jews hijacking a civilian flight and crashing the plane into a tall building.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

You would be hard pressed to find an instance of Jews hijacking a civilian flight and crashing the plane into a tall building.

Ba'al Chatzaf

No, the last 20 years have has shown that 'Jews' would rather use American made M16 Assault rifles, Apache Gunship Helicopters armed with Hellfire missiles, F16 Fighter Jets with huge bombs and also cluster bombs and white phosphorous ammunition to blow up buildings instead of using a commercial airliner.. Is that supposed to be a good thing?

The sad thing is that you seem to have more of a problem with the fact that Al Qaeda like terrorists are so willing to kill themselves in the process of killing civilians rather than the killing of civilians themselves.

It scares you.. The reason why it scares you is that you'd never sacrifice yourself for something that you believe to be a greater good like they do (even though it's clearly not good). You're a coward and would never give up your own life for something you believe to be good because you don't sincerely believe that there's something better for you in the next life..

The fact is that the verse 2:96 isn't a condemnation of all Jews at all.. It's a condemnation of a personality type that can be found amongst not only Jews, but amongst all groups of people including Muslims.. But in particular focused on those self righteous few who believe that they can do any type of sin on this earth and harm any person yet still believe that simply because they are 'The Chosen People' that they will not be held accountable and that paradise is for them alone..

The condemnation is of people like you, who sit and mock and create mischief stating something very clear.. You stand for NOTHING.. You have no beliefs that are sincere beliefs and live a wasted existence on borrowed time because you fear death.. You're a hypocrite..

"Say (unto them): If the abode of the Hereafter in the providence of Allah is indeed for you alone and not for others of mankind (as ye pretend), then long for death (for ye must long for death) if ye are truthful. But they will never long for it, because of that which their own hands have sent before them. Allah is aware of evil-doers. And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do." (Qur'an 2:94-96)

[Rich Engle]

The sad thing is that you seem to have more of a problem with the fact that Al Qaeda like terrorists are so willing to kill themselves in the process of killing civilians rather than the killing of civilians themselves.

It scares you.. The reason why it scares you is that you'd never sacrifice yourself for something that you believe to be a greater good like they do (even though it's clearly not good). You're a coward and would never give up your own life for something you believe to be good because you don't sincerely believe that there's something better for you in the next life..

It got to the point where I decided not to read this (your, we should say) thread because of a couple of things. For one, I hate fucking rhetoric, especially the repeating variety, which you have down to a science. I have seen this before in music-teaching. It is when you see someone just play one scale over and over and over, when they need, really, to work on the other 4 fingerings.

But I digress.

You are trying to make an argument for these actions from their conviction? Let me tell you something, buddy-boy: no, and I repeat NO true religion on this planet supports that kind of activity. Your word for today is fucking NO. It is not Nice, that's why We Don't Do That. You can point fingers all you want; it is never good to do these things. This is in the simple "two wrongs don't make a right" retard category of thinking. There will NEVER be a justification for those types of actions. Specifically, those kinds (I am not talking about a battlefield situation here, but I am sure you will suck right into that).

There is NEVER a justification for shit-doing. Maybe you ought to stop worrying about the sides, and think more about how to make the shit go away in the first place.

In religious thought, at least in the large place called The Free Church, there is reason, there is reverence, and there is tolerance. For starters. Definitely no room for hateful thinking, or justifying it.

And, that is what you seem to be going on and on about, for months. You are looking for a good reason for killing.

Well, occasionally. There are like two of them. Maybe. The rest, blow it out your ass. Here's why: Because me, or someone like me, will take you apart at the seams. And we won't like so-doing. But, we will.

There, I gave you the first reason. I leave you free to figure out the second one. I don't think it exists, outside of a hypothetical.

rde

Edited May 15, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Libertarian Muslim]

It got to the point where I decided not to read this (your, we should say) thread because of a couple of things. For one, I hate fucking rhetoric, especially the repeating variety, which you have down to a science. I have seen this before in music-teaching. It is when you see someone just play one scale over and over and over, when they need, really, to work on the other 4 fingerings.

But I digress.

You are trying to make an argument for these actions from their conviction? Let me tell you something, buddy-boy: no, and I repeat NO true religion on this planet supports that kind of activity. Your word for today is fucking NO. It is not Nice, that's why We Don't Do That. You can point fingers all you want; it is never good to do these things. This is in the simple "two wrongs don't make a right" retard category of thinking. There will NEVER be a justification for those types of actions. Specifically, those kinds (I am not talking about a battlefield situation here, but I am sure you will suck right into that).

There is NEVER a justification for shit-doing. Maybe you ought to stop worrying about the sides, and think more about how to make the shit go away in the first place.

In religious thought, at least in the large place called The Free Church, there is reason, there is reverence, and there is tolerance. For starters. Definitely no room for hateful thinking, or justifying it.

And, that is what you seem to be going on and on about, for months. You are looking for a good reason for killing.

Well, occasionally. There are like two of them. The rest, blow it out your ass.

rde

Hmmmm.. Odd..

Perhaps you should learn to read properly before you decide to tell one to stop repeating and before you start ranting, if you had read it properly you'd have clearly seen where I stated the following, which you quoted:

It scares you.. The reason why it scares you is that you'd never sacrifice yourself for something that you believe to be a greater good like they do (even though it's clearly not good).

I stated very clearly that their reasoning behind their actions is not good and that was the whole point.

In addition to that, if you'd read any of my previous posts you'd also know that I have unequivocally condemned the targeting of unarmed civilians and more so, condemned the reasoning behind the actions of Al Qaeda and the like as they contradict Islamic principles.

So to come now and say my posts over the last few months reflect a wish to have a reason to kill is not only downright wrong, but downright silly. So before telling others to not use retarded reasoning, perhaps you should do it first, also I'd suggest that you actually read things over a couple of times so you don't look as trigger happy with the rants in the future.

[Rich Engle]

My, it took you but a minute to respond. That is a "tell," isn't it? A sign of weakness, actually. It means a few things, really. For one, that you are so desperate for response, of any kind. And then, you attempt weird control mechanisms.

Weak. Very, very weak. Pathetic.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Rich Engle]

And, just for the record, here's what tore it for me as far as your travelling road-show goes, Beret-boy.

It was your very, very, clear view of women, and their "place."

That is really all it took. Yeah, I could try to educate you out of it, you are young and that. But when I see that kind of relentless stuff, well, that's just a sociopath, as far as I am concerned. Or if you aren't, you might as well be.

You set the tempo, now march to it. Right to nowhere.

rde

[Libertarian Muslim]

My, it took you but a minute to respond. That is a "tell," isn't it? A sign of weakness, actually. It means a few things, really. For one, that you are so desperate for response, of any kind. And then, you attempt weird control mechanisms.

Weak. Very, very weak. Pathetic.

Hilarious.. I replied to your post 14 minutes after you posted it.

You replied to mine 7 minutes after I posted...

If such times are something to go by then yours clearly sets the standard and you should be looking at yourself as being desperate for response and also attempting weird control mechanisms.

And, just for the record, here's what tore it for me as far as your travelling road-show goes, Beret-boy.

It was your very, very, clear view of women, and their "place."

That is really all it took. Yeah, I could try to educate you out of it, you are young and that. But when I see that kind of relentless stuff, well, that's just a sociopath, as far as I am concerned. Or if you aren't, you might as well be.

You set the tempo, now march to it. Right to nowhere.

rde

What view of women and their 'place' are you referring to?

Sociopath? Hilarious.. Perhaps you should be talking into a mirror..

[Brant Gaede]

Are "extreme" Jews?

--Brant

When was the last time Jewish fanatics committed suicide/homicide? Back about the time of Matzada, I think

Ba'al Chatzaf

The creation of Israel? The Warsaw Ghetto?

--Brant

The Jews that fought in the Warsaw Ghetto were fighting for their lives against the Nazi who initiated aggression upon then. It was partisan combat, not terrorist. There were no German civilians involved in that fight.

As to the creation of Israel, it was the Muslim and Arabs who attempted to destroy the Jewish enclave. They failed. They tried again several times and so far have failed each time. The pre-emptive strikes of the 67 war were against Egyptian and Syrian military installations. It was war, not terrorism.

You would be hard pressed to find an instance of Jews hijacking a civilian flight and crashing the plane into a tall building.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The King David Hotel?

--Brant

[Rich Engle]

Sociopath? Hilarious.. Perhaps you should be talking into a mirror..

Actually, what you are referring to is a narcissist, and, now that I think on it, that is a more apt description of you. Sociopaths exhibit more intelligence, though it is badly-directed. Still, it requires a certain base-level of talent.

You have made it clear that, more-or-less, you like 'em barefoot, and pregnant. Look up your own screed.

And, thirdly, it gives a man pause to wonder why, given all this bull-poop, you persist, rash-like, on an Ayn Rand site. I have seen virtually, no, not even virtually, flat-out nothing from you in terms of related ideas. I don't think you know very much about her, and that is a small thing. That's for starters.

rde

Edited May 15, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Leonid]

This is undeniable fact that Islam promotes martyrdoom. "Aaich Ibn Abdullah al-Qarni in his book "Don't be sad" pg 343 writes:" Being killed in the way of Allah is a dream and pleasant whish for the righteous. " Some have fulfilled their obligations (i.e.have been martyred), and some of them are still waiting"" ( Qur'an 33:23)." In spite that Qur'an explicitly forbids suicide (Qur'an 4:29;2:195), no leading scholar of Islam ever condemned suicide bombers. Baruch Goldstein's action was widely condemned by Israeli and international Jewish community. Meir Kahane had been banished from the Israeli political life and eventually left Israel. Even actions of Matzada's defenders 2000 years ago have been criticized as incompatable with Judaism.

However one should distinguish between Islam and Muslims. Without any doubt vast majority of 1.5 billion Muslims don't practice martyrdoom of Islam. They simply ignore it. Many of them, I'm sure, would drink " Le chaim" with a Jew or Christian or Hindu, if there is no some Islamist with AK-47 around.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Rich Engle]

Idea: use something in common English grammar referred to as "articles." This would include the use of, well, the word "the."

If you don't, you end up sounding like the guy working the Quickie Mart, which, if you look at it, is exactly what you just did.

rde

Edited May 15, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Leonid]

Adonis "And when Muslims use the same type of reasoning to judge all Americans by the MILLIONS of those who have died due to US aggression and imperialism or judge the Jews by the actions of the likes of the Hilltop Youth and the other Extremists like terrorists Rabbi Meir Kahane (who promoted driving the Arabs from Israel through force"

You condemn Kahane for promoting ideas which you yourself promote in regard to Jews. (You call them Zionists). From this I conclude that you consider life of Jew to be cheaper than that of Arab. That what I call real bigotry and hypocrisy.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Leonid

[anthony]

You would be hard pressed to find an instance of Jews hijacking a civilian flight and crashing the plane into a tall building.

Ba'al Chatzaf

No, the last 20 years have has shown that 'Jews' would rather use American made M16 Assault rifles, Apache Gunship Helicopters armed with Hellfire missiles, F16 Fighter Jets with huge bombs and also cluster bombs and white phosphorous ammunition to blow up buildings instead of using a commercial airliner.. Is that supposed to be a good thing?

The sad thing is that you seem to have more of a problem with the fact that Al Qaeda like terrorists are so willing to kill themselves in the process of killing civilians rather than the killing of civilians themselves.

It scares you.. The reason why it scares you is that you'd never sacrifice yourself for something that you believe to be a greater good like they do (even though it's clearly not good). You're a coward and would never give up your own life for something you believe to be good because you don't sincerely believe that there's something better for you in the next life..

The fact is that the verse 2:96 isn't a condemnation of all Jews at all.. It's a condemnation of a personality type that can be found amongst not only Jews, but amongst all groups of people including Muslims.. But in particular focused on those self righteous few who believe that they can do any type of sin on this earth and harm any person yet still believe that simply because they are 'The Chosen People' that they will not be held accountable and that paradise is for them alone..

The condemnation is of people like you, who sit and mock and create mischief stating something very clear.. You stand for NOTHING.. You have no beliefs that are sincere beliefs and live a wasted existence on borrowed time because you fear death.. You're a hypocrite..

"Say (unto them): If the abode of the Hereafter in the providence of Allah is indeed for you alone and not for others of mankind (as ye pretend), then long for death (for ye must long for death) if ye are truthful. But they will never long for it, because of that which their own hands have sent before them. Allah is aware of evil-doers. And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do." (Qur'an 2:94-96)

Adonis,

Right through the Palestinian debate I agreed with (most of) the facts that you brought up; as I agree with the facts that Ba'al brings up.

I disagree completely with your INTERPRETATION of those facts - and definitely do not agree with Ba'al's, either.

Both of you seem to believe that given "x", the only logical conclusion and action, is "y".

I have always opposed this thinking, with some of the Jews I know, and a few Muslims as well. Both you guys essentially have the same hateful argument, that is so common concerning the M.E., and makes it all so hopeless -- They started it, and we must avenge ourselves.

As I've tried to say earlier, a blizzard of facts is not going to solve anything - we need to operate from a base of principles, legality, and morality.

----------------------

You have helped me confirm something I've thought for a long time about suicide bombing.

When the IRA were targeting London with concealed bombs, they sure got the world's attention alright. Do you know why they ended that campaign? It became 'counter-productive' when world opinion turned against them,- as was only right and proper at the horror. Cynical pragmatism at its worst.

However, something in the Western mindset goes haywire when a man carries the bomb into a shopping mall, and takes his OWN LIFE, timeously, with scores of civilians.

Because the respect for life is high-ish amongst most Westerners, the idea is incomprehensible to him; all his psyche can conclude is that the suicide bomber MUST have a great Cause, in order to do this deed.

And in spite of himself, he feels a grudging respect for that evil act.

I saw this sick, insane, reaction in my country,(most terribly, in intelligent people I thought I knew well) in the aftermath of 9/11.

Bombers, or their handlers, have been using this to great effect, for too long now, to gain sympathy for their cause. There could be signs recently that the effect could be wearing thin from over-use.

In your above post, you have laid it all out clearly:

Added to what you've said in the past - that it was only "right" that suicide bombing attacks on Israel ended 'because they were not effective anymore'. (Or close to that.) Again, cynical pragmatism.

So now you berate a poster for being too much of a coward to give his own life for some greater "good."

Well yes, you are on an Objectivist forum, after all, and O'ists greatest value is Life, their own, and by extension, others', and they utterly oppose sacrifice. Too, the atheists among us, of course, find the concept of a 'next

life', ridiculous.

You have made it clear, repeatedly, that you believe that terror bombing is a means to an end ... because what else do you expect those poor people to do?

Um... not kill anyone, perhaps? Find another way, maybe?

DO the ironies escape you, Adonis? That the person who perpetrates this act of murderous self-immolation, will end up in heaven - while those whose lives he has randomly taken, are often of a different Faith, and might not 'go there' themselves? Sacrificial victims for his heavenly ascension, and for headlines in the media.

If you have any genuine desire to align Libertarianism with Islam, you are going to have to openly and vociferously condemn all forms of terrorism.

And that just isn't going to happen, will it?

Tony

[Libertarian Muslim]

Actually, what you are referring to is a narcissist, and, now that I think on it, that is a more apt description of you. Sociopaths exhibit more intelligence, though it is badly-directed. Still, it requires a certain base-level of talent.

That is just silly.. You are calling me a narcissist when you yourself display those traits and the examples you use to justify that conclusion are those which you yourself have done to a greater extent.

You have made it clear that, more-or-less, you like 'em barefoot, and pregnant. Look up your own screed.

Where have I ever said such things or anything like it? The burden of proof is now on you to show where I have.. Either do so or retract your statement.

And, thirdly, it gives a man pause to wonder why, given all this bull-poop, you persist, rash-like, on an Ayn Rand site. I have seen virtually, no, not even virtually, flat-out nothing from you in terms of related ideas. I don't think you know very much about her, and that is a small thing. That's for starters.

I was invited here.. Were you?

This is undeniable fact that Islam promotes martyrdoom. "Aaich Ibn Abdullah al-Qarni in his book "Don't be sad" pg 343 writes:" Being killed in the way of Allah is a dream and pleasant whish for the righteous. " Some have fulfilled their obligations (i.e.have been martyred), and some of them are still waiting"" ( Qur'an 33:23)." In spite that Qur'an explicitly forbids suicide (Qur'an 4:29;2:195), no leading scholar of Islam ever condemned suicide bombers. Baruch Goldstein's action was widely condemned by Israeli and international Jewish community. Meir Kahane had been banished from the Israeli political life and eventually left Israel. Even actions of Matzada's defenders 2000 years ago have been criticized as incompatable with Judaism.

However one should distinguish between Islam and Muslims. Without any doubt vast majority of 1.5 billion Muslims don't practice martyrdoom of Islam. They simply ignore it. Many of them, I'm sure, would drink " Le chaim" with a Jew or Christian or Hindu, if there is no some Islamist with AK-47 around.

Yes, Islam does promote martyrdom.. It promotes dying, if necessary for your rights and beliefs..

However, contrary to your belief, suicide bombing has been condemned numerous times by various scholars both in the Middle East and in the West..

The following is a very detailed refutation of the idea by a think tank of Islamic Scholars..

http://www.ihsanic-intelligence.com/dox/The_Hijacked_Caravan.pdf

There is one example of a globally sanctioned Jihad in the last 30 years where the entire Muslim world and a large number from the Western World supported the efforts of Muslims fighting against the Soviet Union's occupation of Afghanistan from 1979-89. This example was one where Muslims did not blow themselves up and instead fought against the Russians using guerilla tactics and many of these Muslims who did fight were very pious.

I also think you have a problem with understanding the notion of martyrdom.. You see Martyrdom is not something you practice, it's something you are granted.. The vast majority of Muslims would be happy to die martyrs, serving some greater purpose in saving the lives of others through their sacrifice and pleasing God in the process.. However, that doesn't mean they'd strap a bomb to themselves.. Being a martyr is simply losing your life whilst engaging in an endeavor that was designed to bring justice and/or save lives..

In terms of Kahane and Goldstein, you are correct.. They were condemned but their memories still retain popularity, for example many extremist Zionists celebrate the massacre that Goldstein perpetrated every year and call for more blood and violence. Just like Al Qaeda is condemned by the overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world yet still celebrated by some extremists... There's no difference between them.

In addition to that, you are the one who is saying that by Zionist I mean all Jews, but I have consistently shown otherwise, I don't regard them as the same because not all Jews are Zionists.

Idea: use something in common English grammar referred to as "articles." This would include the use of, well, the word "the."

If you don't, you end up sounding like the guy working the Quickie Mart, which, if you look at it, is exactly what you just did.

rde

I have very severe dyslexia.

In addition to that, if your argument is going to come down to grammar then you're only showing how immature you are. My English is extremely good, as it should be for someone who's a native English speaker with an IQ as high as mine.

Adonis "And when Muslims use the same type of reasoning to judge all Americans by the MILLIONS of those who have died due to US aggression and imperialism or judge the Jews by the actions of the likes of the Hilltop Youth and the other Extremists like terrorists Rabbi Meir Kahane (who promoted driving the Arabs from Israel through force"

You condemn Kahane for promoting ideas which you yourself promote in regard to Jews. (You call them Zionists). From this I conclude that you consider life of Jew to be cheaper than that of Arab. That what I call real bigotry and hypocrisy.

That's not true at all..

My statement about Zionists having to leave was very specific. I stated that if no peace agreement was concluded and there should, at some point in the future come a military power that overwhelms Israel and takes it over, then those Israelis that don't wish to live in a one state solution that is not a Zionist state should be sent back to Europe or any other country that would have them, if they want to live in a state that is united then great, let them stay.. Kahane called for the expulsion of all Arabs regardless of their political affiliation.

You have made it clear, repeatedly, that you believe that terror bombing is a means to an end ... because what else do you expect those poor people to do?

Um... not kill anyone, perhaps? Find another way, maybe?

I'm sorry, when did I do that?

DO the ironies escape you, Adonis? That the person who perpetrates this act of murderous self-immolation, will end up in heaven - while those whose lives he has randomly taken, are often of a different Faith, and might not 'go there' themselves? Sacrificial victims for his heavenly ascension, and for headlines in the media.

Who said that that is what I believe? I think if you read through any of my other posts on this forum properly you'd see I believe quite the opposite.

If you have any genuine desire to align Libertarianism with Islam, you are going to have to openly and vociferously condemn all forms of terrorism.

And that just isn't going to happen, will it?

I have many, on many occasions condemned any type of attack, by any type of individual, group or government that targets and aims to harm unarmed civilians regardless what religion, race or creed the attackers or targets are..

In addition to that, you said that I condemned suicide bombing because it doesn't work. No, that's only giving a small portion of the truth.. First and foremost it is unislamic.. My comment about it not working was referring to the military value of such a tactic.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Leonid]

Adonis-Re: Qur'an 2:94-96. Aaidh ibn Abdullah al Qarni definitely relates this verse to Jews. He comments” there is the choice of the words “one thousand years". Perhaps the reason for this stems from the tradition of Jews that when they would meet each other, their greeting was "Live for a thousand years."". And this is total fantasy, Jews don't have such a tradition, they greet each other exactly as Muslim do- with "Shalom aleichem". Jewish idea of longevity is 120 years (Moses' life), and that what they may wish each other. Furthermore author says “Allah reproached them (Jews) for desiring such a long life. (“Don't Be Sad" pg 269). It seems that you disagree. Can you clarify? It also seems that this is the common pattern of your argument: to beat the straw man, the imaginary enemy, instead to address the real problem.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis-Re: Qur'an 2:94-96. Aaidh ibn Abdullah al Qarni definitely relates this verse to Jews. He comments” there is the choice of the words “one thousand years". Perhaps the reason for this stems from the tradition of Jews that when they would meet each other, their greeting was "Live for a thousand years."". And this is total fantasy, Jews don't have such a tradition, they greet each other exactly as Muslim do- with "Shalom aleichem". Jewish idea of longevity is 120 years (Moses' life), and that what they may wish each other. Furthermore author says “Allah reproached them (Jews) for desiring such a long life. (“Don't Be Sad" pg 269). It seems that you disagree. Can you clarify? It also seems that this is the common pattern of your argument: to beat the straw man, the imaginary enemy, instead to address the real problem.

To which Jews is the verse referring to? All Jews? No.. It's talking about a people that were spoken to by Prophet's from Moses thereon up until the Prophet Muhammad, it's not referring to Jews but all such self righteous hypocrites no matter what religion or people they come from.. That is a lesson for all and is not specific to Jews

Also, I'm not sure of this alleged tradition, but I've never heard a Jew say it nor have I heard an Islamic scholar claim that Jews say it and anyone that does is ignorant. The only Jews I've met who give a specific greeting have, as you mentioned only used Shalom aleichem.

Also, the books such as "Don't be sad" are Wahhabi books.. Surely you know me well enough by now to know that I disagree with Wahhabi teachings.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I see a lot of mind-reading on this thread (from many).

That system isn't working out too well for finding the path to wisdom and understanding.

That is, if wisdom and understanding are what one wants...

Michael

[anthony]

Michael,

I would like to get past this bickering stage, and find common ground with Palestinians, and Muslims generally.

However.

No, - no mind-reading from me. Adonis, despite protestations has been the one to use veiled threats of aggression.

He claims that he does not approve of acts of terror, but he said at least twice on the other thread that "what else are the Palestinians supposed to do to protect themselves (against the Israeli military might)", or words to that effect.

Then saying he disapproves of it because it's un-Islamic to kill civilians and it anyway wasn't working. These are not moral reasons.

Protect themselves? By blowing up cafes?

(I have seen similar from some O'ists who claim the supreme Right to Self-defence ALSO entitles them to wreak vengeance - though they won't often say it directly. Not justice, mind, but payback and revenge, by 'nuking Tehran', or other horrors.

This is inexcusable imo, from O'ists, who know better.)

Again, he was also the first poster to bring up Israel's "100(?) nuclear weapons", saying in effect "what do the Zionists have to fear"; and neatly countering this by mentioning Iran's growing nuclear arsenal, and so giving us all and Israel plenty to fear.

Then his statements in that infamous post today advocating being prepared to die for a cause,--- all make his protestations for peace and humanity ring very hollow,imo.

All along, I've seen (it's on record) veiled belligerence, that makes Adonis, a wolf in sheep's clothing, AFAIC.

Tony

[Rich Engle]

No, Michael, it isn't mind-reading.

This guy is a horse's ass. Groom him appropriately.

Just the way he repeats himself ("silly," etc.) is enough to make me sick up my lunch. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism, although I think there is a fair chance he harbors it. Good luck with your pet Muslim.

I'm out of here, shouldn't have gone back and tried in the first place.

rde

[Libertarian Muslim]

However.

No, - no mind-reading from me. Adonis, despite protestations has been the one to use veiled threats of aggression.

He claims that he does not approve of acts of terror, but he said at least twice on the other thread that "what else are the Palestinians supposed to do to protect themselves (against the Israeli military might)", or words to that effect.

Then saying he disapproves of it because it's un-Islamic to kill civilians and it anyway wasn't working. These are not moral reasons.

Protect themselves? By blowing up cafes?

I have always condemned the specific targeting of unarmed civilians and never justified it.

The only thing I have said that I have justified is rocket attacks against Israeli cities as a means to force Israelis to petition their government to lift Israel's stranglehold of the Gaza strip as well as Hezbollah's use of rockets during the 2006 war when Israel had attacked Lebanon.

Hamas and Hezbollah don't have the sophisticated missiles guided by GPS that Israel does and considering that they can't get them, surely it shouldn't stop them from their right to resist Israeli aggression and occupation, providing that they do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties which they do by encouraging Israelis to stay in their bomb shelters before attacks.

Again, he was also the first poster to bring up Israel's "100(?) nuclear weapons", saying in effect "what do the Zionists have to fear"; and neatly countering this by mentioning Iran's growing nuclear arsenal, and so giving us all and Israel plenty to fear.

I've never claimed that Iran has a nuclear arsenal nor that they are attempting to build one. And the fact is that Israel's nuclear weapons do ensure its survival, but as I said previously, if it's okay for Israel, it should be good enough for Iran so that there could at least be Mutually Assured Destruction (Even though Iran has no interest in building such weapons and would instead like a nuclear free Middle East).

Then his statements in that infamous post today advocating being prepared to die for a cause,--- all make his protestations for peace and humanity ring very hollow,imo.

Really? How does it make those hollow? What I stated is that if one truly and sincerely believes in something and stands for it so passionately, then they should be willing to give their life for it. For example, if necessary I would risk my life to protect another human being.. ie if a child fell on train tracks and it seemed far enough away that I could jump on the tracks and rescue the child and get it to safety then I'd do it, and if I died in the process then I would be willing to do so. Or, if a person was being attacked, I would intervene and try and defend this person even at risk to myself. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.. Wouldn't you?

All along, I've seen (it's on record) veiled belligerence, that makes Adonis, a wolf in sheep's clothing, AFAIC.

Oh please...

No, Michael, it isn't mind-reading.

This guy is a horse's ass. Groom him appropriately.

Just the way he repeats himself ("silly," etc.) is enough to make me sick up my lunch. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism, although I think there is a fair chance he harbors it. Good luck with your pet Muslim.

I'm out of here, shouldn't have gone back and tried in the first place.

rde

I don't need to be groomed.

Again, you haven't shown where I've made statements or demonstrated anything in my previous posts that show that I like women barefoot and pregnant or anything of the sort. So go back and find such statements or retract your comment stating that I believe this. If you won't do either it clearly shows that you haven't actually read my previous posts on this forum and instead are just ranting for no reason.

[Mike Renzulli]

Okay Adonis,

I will take a stab at this part of your comments. Without having read the entire thread, I would like to jump in to address very flawed reasoning in your logic and misstatements about Gaza.

Thailand officials seized a North Korean plane last year whose cargo was a weapons cache will of rockets and other weaponry. The type of weapons were such that they could be used in ground-to-ground combat and which are found being used by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israeli cities and armed forces.

You cannot deny that Hamas is building tunnels from Gaza into Israel as a means of smuggling weapons into the area and that Hamas has deliberately stored the weapons they use against the Israelis in population centers essentially using Gaza civilians as human shields.

When Israel (despite their best efforts to warn civilians before retaliating for the rocket attacks Hamas conducts) hits back and destroys weapons caches where civilians are, Hamas instantly blames Israel for civilian casualties.

Hamas also uses the tunnels they have constructed as a means to kidnap Israeli soldiers too. The entire Gaza Stip is now (and may previously been) used as a place to arm and train terrorists.

In 2006 Iran announced they would send money to aid Hamas which Hamas uses to purchase weapons they use against Israelis in terrorism or missle strikes.

It would be a mistake to allow Iran to have nukes. If their support of Hamas is any guide, it is a fact that Iran arms and trains terrorists. Once the country has nuclear technology they can then develop the means to arm and train terrorist groups they support in the use of dirty bombs.

It is Hamas, not Israel, that is hell-bent on death and destruction and you know that Israel has to fend almost for itself against it's neighbors who are predominately Muslim and are dictatorships. Israel has had to fight numerous wars of self defense just to be able to maintain her existence.

Countries like Syria, Jordan and even Iran resent Israel because of the prosperity she enjoys and it's obvious they want to bring Israel down.

Iran has no interest in peace especially since the country's President has said he wants Israel wiped off the map and has attended rallies where attendees loudly chant Death to America!

So I get the impression you are either in denial or trying to excuse the behavior or countries like Iran and groups like Hamas ignoring the evil they committ.

The only thing I have said that I have justified is rocket attacks against Israeli cities as a means to force Israelis to petition their government to lift Israel's stranglehold of the Gaza strip as well as Hezbollah's use of rockets during the 2006 war when Israel had attacked Lebanon.

Hamas and Hezbollah don't have the sophisticated missiles guided by GPS that Israel does and considering that they can't get them, surely it shouldn't stop them from their right to resist Israeli aggression and occupation, providing that they do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties which they do by encouraging Israelis to stay in their bomb shelters before attacks.

I've never claimed that Iran has a nuclear arsenal nor that they are attempting to build one. And the fact is that Israel's nuclear weapons do ensure its survival, but as I said previously, if it's okay for Israel, it should be good enough for Iran so that there could at least be Mutually Assured Destruction (Even though Iran has no interest in building such weapons and would instead like a nuclear free Middle East).

Edited May 15, 2010 by Mike Renzulli