Rap is a music aristotle would have liked

[nicholasair]

Also most rap music is ego centered and individualistic.

[BaalChatzaf]

Also most rap music is ego centered and individualistic.

It is also a tad primitive.....

Bitch! Ho! Motha***er, Motha***er. Bitch! Ho! Motha F***er Motha F***er........

or some such.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[9thdoctor]

Also most rap music is ego centered and individualistic.

No tribal element? That's my impression of "most" rap. Here’s a hilarious parody:

http://www.neilrogers.com/sounds/bonr1999/03.mp3

[Jonathan]

Wow, you guys (or should I say "homies"?) must really be into rap if you've listened to enough of it to know what "most" of it contains.

J

P.S. I've started compiling a list of rap songs that I think Objectivists should find acceptable:

Feel free to add to it.

[9thdoctor]

Wow, you guys (or should I say "homies"?) must really be into rap if you've listened to enough of it to know what "most" of it contains.

You got me there, I included scare quotes around “most” for a reason, I haven’t listened to enough rap to say. I hate it. I really just wanted to share the M&M parody.

[9thdoctor]

P.S. I've started compiling a list of rap songs that I think Objectivists should find acceptable:

Sometimes I get the feeling you really hate Objectivists. Anyway, I didn't click your links earlier, so I didn't react. Gilbert and Sullivan is not rap, pitches are written out, even though some performers do it more like sprechstimme than others, that’s just a matter of style. The Wilson number is a better example, though it has a great vocal melody later. Here’s another great piece of patter singing, it starts in earnest at 2.20, but earlier you'll hear Sondheim ask for more attention to the melody.

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Remember the advice I gave you on the other thread? Clearly you haven't taken it.

[Jonathan]

Sometimes I get the feeling you really hate Objectivists.

I don't hate anyone, but I don't think it's uncommon for Objetivists (or Objectivish types) to misinterpret criticism of Objectivists as expressions of hatred.

Anyway, I didn't click your links earlier, so I didn't react. Gilbert and Sullivan is not rap...

Gilbert and Sullivan's (and others') use of patter song is essentially the same thing as rap. Rap and patter song both limit melody in favor of emphasizing rhythmic patterns. Both use a technique that is usually closer to speaking or chanting than outright singing. The only difference that I can see is that patter song was primarily created and performed by white people.

...pitches are written out, even though some performers do it more like sprechstimme than others, that’s just a matter of style.

The same is true of most rap. Though all of it isn't "written out," there are usually intended pitches that are generally adhered to, at least to the same degree that pitches are adhered to in patter song.

The Wilson number is a better example, though it has a great vocal melody later.

A lot of rap songs also contain great vocal melodies (and harmonies).

Remember the advice I gave you on the other thread? Clearly you haven't taken it.

Why is it so upsetting to you that I'm pointing out that a musical technique (replacing strong melody with an emphasis on rhythmic chanting) has been used in Western art for quite a long time, and that Objectivists weren't critical of it when it was primarily being created by white people? Why, instead of sticking to the subject and calmly and politely discussing it, as I am, do you feel that you need to attempt to insult me by delving into my private sex life and suggesting that my interest in discussing Objectivist hypocrisies must by motivated by not getting laid? Have you no decency? Have you no shame?

J

[Reidy]

I can't help noticing that nobody here has attempted an argument, with references to Aristotle, that he would have liked rap music. The assumption seems to be that the Greeks recited lyric and dramatic poetry with rhythm but not melody. If this were true it wouldn't be enough to prove the claim at hand (since so much more is entailed in judging poetry or any dramatic or narrative art), and it probably isn't true. Greek had a pitch-based rhythm rather than stress-based as English verse does, so it wouldn't have sounded anything like rap. Painted and written accounts (including Aristotle's Poetics with its discussion of musical modes and the emotions they express) tell us that the poetry was sung melodically. We have barely any notated music from the period and thus very little idea of how it sounded, but that doesn't mean that they didn't sing.

The very words "lyric," "ode," "tragedy" and "comedy" are tipoffs that the Greeks sang their verse.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Reidy

[9thdoctor]

Why is it so upsetting to you that I'm pointing out that a musical technique (replacing strong melody with an emphasis on rhythmic chanting) has been used in Western art for quite a long time, and that Objectivists weren't critical of it when it was primarily being created by white people? Why, instead of sticking to the subject and calmly and politely discussing it, as I am, do you feel that you need to attempt to insult me by delving into my private sex life and suggesting that my interest in discussing Objectivist hypocrisies must by motivated by not getting laid? Have you no decency? Have you no shame?

After clicking your links, I reinterpreted your first post as a full-on insult. I don’t think I overeacted, as my reference to the “other thread” was a mere poke in the ribs. You followed Ed to the thread for his Stossel show to mock his Avatar review, and then you kept up with your frankly dumb ass misinterpretation of the opera Turandot, in spite of my invocation of Black Adder:

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I certainly regret the thread drift, apple low geez to all duh homies fo dat. Also, the implication that Objectivists object to rap because its not created by white people is duly noted, false though it is in more than one respec.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[Herb Sewell]

You guys sadden me with you naivete.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Herb,

Welcome to OL, but cut the shit.

I mean it.

This forum is not a stage for you to prance your self-inflated view of yourself in front of a group of allegedly inferior beings.

Michael

[Herb Sewell]

Herb,

Welcome to OL, but cut the shit.

I mean it.

This forum is not a stage for you to prance your self-inflated view of yourself in front of a group of allegedly inferior beings.

Michael

But it was obviously a troll.

[9thdoctor]

You guys sadden me with you naivete.

But it was obviously a troll.

It? What? Who? Who's naive, about what are they naive, and who's a troll?

[Herb Sewell]

You guys sadden me with you naivete.

But it was obviously a troll.

It? What? Who? Who's naive, about what are they naive, and who's a troll?

Also most rap music is ego centered and individualistic.

This is baiting, and thus, trolling.

I reference your responses and others to adduce the fact that you and said others have been trolled.

[9thdoctor]

This is baiting, and thus, trolling.

I reference your responses and others to adduce the fact that you and said others have been trolled.

Nicholasair has made non-trolling posts elsewhere, if he’d followed up on this thread with some examples to make a case, it might have gone somewhere. A couple posts addressed what he wrote, and no one took him seriously based on his mere assertion. It seems you feel he should have been ignored and dismissed out of hand. I call that playing Monday morning quarterback. Five months later, to boot.