Interesting Take on Islam and Libertarianism

[Libertarian Muslim]

And if I believed in capital punishment, I think stoning for him would have been appropriate.

I have to admit if Hitler had been drawn and quartered I'd have had trouble articulating an objection to it.

I'd object. Try hanged, drawn and quartered! That's better!

--Brant

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter" (Qur'an 5:33).

Actually, he'd get far worse than this. The prophet Muhammad pbuh punished war criminals and torturers with the same treatment their victims received.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Selene]

Greek guy bearing gifts of the Islamic texts:

Am I to understand that there is a "christian type hell" in the "Hereafter" according to the texts?

This would separate significantly from Judaism...yes.

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Greek guy bearing gifts of the Islamic texts:

Am I to understand that there is a "christian type hell" in the "Hereafter" according to the texts?

This would separate significantly from Judaism...yes.

Adam

There is a hellfire for those who belong there. Hitler would certainly be one.

Edit: But God knows best.

http://www.al-islam.org/Resurrect/ for more info.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Selene]

Greek guy bearing gifts of the Islamic texts:

Am I to understand that there is a "christian type hell" in the "Hereafter" according to the texts?

This would separate significantly from Judaism...yes.

Adam

There is a hellfire for those who belong there. Hitler would certainly be one.

Edit: But God knows best.

Adonis:

Got that part.

It is significantly, radically different from Judaism ...yes.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

So, Adonis, who are you in the pay of and why for?

--Brant

[Libertarian Muslim]

So, Adonis, who are you in the pay of and why for?

--Brant

It's not that I'm being paid to do this Brant, it's just that I'm trying to save the world and humanity from a far greater cost in the future if this cycle of hate and ignorance continues.

[Brant Gaede]

So, Adonis, who are you in the pay of and why for?

--Brant

It's not that I'm being paid to do this Brant, it's just that I'm trying to save the world and humanity from a far greater cost in the future if this cycle of hate and ignorance continues.

You won't succeed. A big war is coming. Objectivists are as nothing compared to the religious conservatives. The war will likely center on Iran and Pakistan and involve nuclear weapons. Five years, max. It will be India, the US and Israel against those two. Islam will either take over Western Europe or Muslims will be expelled en mass. I'm betting on the Muslims rather than ascendant fascism on that front. The US will turn its back on Europe and align with China and Asia. Fortunes will be won and lost with a snap of the fingers.

--Brant

[Christopher]

What a beautiful thread, I wish I had jumped in earlier. One thing I did notice was the following:

Like so many religious debates, people duke it out with various quotes from religious texts that either support the benefits of a religion or highlight the catastrophic ideas embedded in a religion. What many individuals fail to realize is that religious ideas arise not through the conceptual domain but through the context of culture and experience.

Many brilliant individuals have made attempts to explain religion, among those being Joseph Campbell. Campbell asserted that religions are representative of internal experiences that are described using symbolism from the external world. The problem, as Campbell succinctly noted, is when individuals begin to view the symbols not as symbols of internal experience but as truth about external reality (fundamentalism).

With that in mind, it must be understood that most religious scripture comes from an ontological viewpoint completely completely different from popular culture and raw conceptual analysis. It is a gross misinterpretation to attempt to translate those ideas without placing the scripture into appropriate context. Part of the context is culture, the other part experience. For example, an attempt to understand the spiritual heart of religion through conceptual grasping without experience is equivalent to trying to understand the color "red" without vision (or an orgasm without ever having had one). Few people, even religious followers themselves, understand this simple rule. Unfortunately, quotes fly back and forth supporting each side and rarely are those quotes meaningfully understood.

On the one hand, we have anti-religious individuals quoting the horrors of religious texts (various punishments, etc). What is missing (to both anti-religious individuals and fundamentalists alike) is the recognition that these moral codes of punishment were the standards of yesterday's culture. We abhor such punishment, yet at the same time we laud the equally-horrendous origins of justice by King Hammurabi (eye for an eye). The difference is that we grant context to Hammurabi's code but not to religious texts.

On the other hand, we have pro-religious non-fundamentalists who quote text that applies to internal events not yet experienced by the majority individuals. It is the ontological gap, so to speak. As a result, the semantics used by non-fundamentalists are misinterpreted by those who have not experienced religion.

Adding to the problem, these two types of context-based scripture (culture and experience) are intermixed, so debates rage throwing quotes back and forth that, if anything, have very little to do with each other. This leads to inevitable paradoxes and conflicts. The results are fundamentalists who act stupidly and atheists who throw the baby out with the bathwater. In both cases, religion (and the human spirit) loses.

Chris

Wilber video discussing the following: "It's very strange that the word religion is used to apply to that activity that causes the most human suffering, and to the sole activity known to alleviate human suffering." (ignore the poor video, the audio matters most... and how the heck to I embed video?!)

Edited January 5, 2010 by Christopher

[BaalChatzaf]

You won't succeed. A big war is coming. Objectivists are as nothing compared to the religious conservatives. The war will likely center on Iran and Pakistan and involve nuclear weapons. Five years, max. It will be India, the US and Israel against those two. Islam will either take over Western Europe or Muslims will be expelled en mass. I'm betting on the Muslims rather than ascendant fascism on that front. The US will turn its back on Europe and align with China and Asia. Fortunes will be won and lost with a snap of the fingers.

--Brant

I have been telling people that a war is being waged upon us since 9/12/2001. Nobody seems to listen. This is the War of the Dominions. The Dar al Harb vs the Dar al Sala'am (translate that the domain of submission). 1.2 billion people who are either screaming Jihadis are or reconciling their beliefs to the ravings of a desert madman (Mohamed). Any decent folk among them have to keep their mouths shut to survive.

The Europeans are feckless. The simply cannot stand up to fascists. France folded, Italy folded, Germany folded and in England one half of the Royal Family were fascist sympathizers.

There is an old Chinese Curse --- may you live in interesting times. We surely are.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited January 5, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

You won't succeed. A big war is coming. Objectivists are as nothing compared to the religious conservatives. The war will likely center on Iran and Pakistan and involve nuclear weapons. Five years, max. It will be India, the US and Israel against those two. Islam will either take over Western Europe or Muslims will be expelled en mass. I'm betting on the Muslims rather than ascendant fascism on that front. The US will turn its back on Europe and align with China and Asia. Fortunes will be won and lost with a snap of the fingers.

--Brant

Of course, there is no doubt that Islam will triumph ultimately here, even in the US.. Like Christianity against the Roman empire. You can't kill an idea and the proof of it is simple, even with the WORST possible examples of Islam that we do have in this world, it is still the fastest growing religion in the world with people coming to it in droves.. 9/11, as terrible an event as it was, of which the perpetrators will face their punishment (including those within the US government and other global elite). 9/11, was an event that brought Islam into the spotlight and made many people question, what is this religion? And when they do their own research they see beyond what the government and media shows them and see the deeper meaning.

I don't believe that world war is inevitable and I pray that it can be avoided at all costs, but I fear that it is too late and it will occur. May God have mercy on the innocent.

I have been telling people that a war is being waged upon us since 9/12/2001. Nobody seems to listen. This is the War of the Dominions. The Dar al Harb vs the Dar al Sala'am (translate that the domain of submission). 1.2 billion people who are either screaming Jihadis are or reconciling their beliefs to the ravings of a desert madman (Mohamed). Any decent folk among them have to keep their mouths shut to survive.

The Europeans are feckless. The simply cannot stand up to fascists. France folded, Italy folded, Germany folded and in England one half of the Royal Family were fascist sympathizers.

There is an old Chinese Curse --- may you live in interesting times. We surely are.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Sure, yet the people who waged war upon you still have yet to be brought to justice, Osama bin Laden's connections to the Bush family, the Hijackers being trained at US military bases, the Mossad connection, the money, who made all that money that we heard about when people sold all their shares right before 9/11? How come we didn't hear about that again?

Tell me, who has benefitted from this war? Has it been the Muslims? No, millions and millions of people have died. Has it been the US Citizens? No, your rights have been infringed in the name of protecting them with warrant-less wiretapping, illegal searches and seizures, the end of the laws which prevented your troops being active on your own soil..

Who has benefitted? Corporations.. The military industrial complex.. The Arab Sheikhs who's pockets get fatter as the price of oil rises.

And all the while, they try and play you and I, non-Muslim and Muslim off against each other and make us fight each other and hate each other.. All while they clean up and make trillions of dollars and gain yet more control over your lives and enslave you.

Yes, you have war waged upon you... But do you know your enemy? Or do you believe the facade?

Edit: Daar al Salaam means the Domain or Land of Peace, not of Submission.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[BaalChatzaf]

Yes, you have war waged upon you... But do you know your enemy? Or do you believe the facade?

Edit: Daar al Salaam means the Domain or Land of Peace, not of Submission.

At the moment the name of our pain is radical Islam (it used to be communism). The real enemy is an internal weakness or corruption, but Man is a sinful being and there will always be a moral and intellectual defect to overcome. The real Jihad or Struggle is to overcome our weaknesses and our inclination to do ill to ourselves and others. As it says in Perke Avot -- Who is strong? He who overcomes his inclination.

As to the translation; to put it bluntly, you lie. Islam is Submission to the Will of God, not peace or wholesomeness. You people have never, ever been peaceful. You breathe war along with CO2. The Umah is the latter day version of the Amalekites.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

At the moment the name of our pain is radical Islam (it used to be communism). The real enemy is an internal weakness or corruption, but Man is a sinful being and there will always be a moral and intellectual defect to overcome. The real Jihad or Struggle is to overcome our weaknesses and our inclination to do ill to ourselves and others. As it says in Perke Avot -- Who is strong? He who overcomes his inclination.

Bob,

You just described the Sufi approach to Jihad, at least as I have seen it promoted by Sufis.

Are you starting to agree with Islam?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that one...)

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

At the moment the name of our pain is radical Islam (it used to be communism). The real enemy is an internal weakness or corruption, but Man is a sinful being and there will always be a moral and intellectual defect to overcome. The real Jihad or Struggle is to overcome our weaknesses and our inclination to do ill to ourselves and others. As it says in Perke Avot -- Who is strong? He who overcomes his inclination.

Bob,

You just described the Sufi approach to Jihad, at least as I have seen it promoted by Sufis.

Are you starting to agree with Islam?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that one...)

Michael

Too bad the Sufi are in the minority. Most of Islam is wrapped up in the insanity of the Sunni, the Shi'iah and the Wahabite.

I am just being Jewish. Perke Avoth is the sixth book of the Mishnah Torah and is the main source of wise and pithy sayings. It is the Jewish answer to Confuciuw and Mo-Tsu. Jews have been in the Wisdom Business for going on three thousand years. Practice makes perfect.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited January 5, 2010 by BaalChatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Yes, you have war waged upon you... But do you know your enemy? Or do you believe the facade?

That's right Abdul, blame the Jews. So why is the -Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion- the number one non-Arabic best seller in the Muslim world? Islam is profoundly anti-Jewish and very anti-human. Why is the penalty for abandoning Islam death, oh Servant of God? Do you think people should be put to death for having "wrong thoughts"? Wrong actions are punishable, but if a man is not free to think his thoughts and speak them to those who will listen, just how free is he?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

Adonis, there are several ways the United States can be destroyed, but none involve Islam taking over. Europe has a demographic problem and a weak-kneed intellectual-political elite, so that can happen there.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

We’re well over 100 posts and no mention yet of Cat Stevens. Time to rectify.

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[9thdoctor]

And if I believed in capital punishment, I think stoning for him would have been appropriate.

I have to admit if Hitler had been drawn and quartered I'd have had trouble articulating an objection to it.

I'd object. Try hanged, drawn and quartered! That's better!

--Brant

You’re forgetting Guy Fawkes. Come up with a safer prelude to the gory finale, you wouldn’t want to get cheated. Here’s a thought:

I believe historically Tar and Feathering was a US invention, Draw and Quartering I associate with the Brits (via William Wallace (Braveheart)), and pulling someone apart with horses was French. The first isn’t fatal, the second is, but not immediately so, and the third is, though I know there was a case when it didn’t work properly. I think the Allies could have arranged it so Adolf got a taste of all three. What we still need is a good Russian method of slow painful death, so all the occupying powers would be represented. Suggestions anyone?

Special note to Michael Marotta, this continues to be banter. And yes, I’m taking it extra far just to annoy you.

[BaalChatzaf]

We're well over 100 posts and no mention yet of Cat Stevens. Time to rectify.

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Cat Stevens who said --- Salmon Rushdie must die.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[tjohnson]

Special note to Michael Marotta, this continues to be banter. And yes, I'm taking it extra far just to annoy you.

There's the alleged blood eagle

[Chris Grieb]

We're well over 100 posts and no mention yet of Cat Stevens. Time to rectify.

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Cat Stevens who said --- Salmon Rushdie must die.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Cat Stevens another wonderful advocate of the religion of peace.

[anthony]

Hello Adonis,

Just as background, my mother was a S'fardic Jewess, born and raised in Alexandria, whose family moved to Palestine in the 30's. Seemingly, the treatment of Jews in Egypt was fairly benign, compared with other Muslim States.

However, after she left the fledgling Israel with my Brit father to move to Central Africa, I remember her utter fear for the rest of her family still there; I was filled with stories about what the Arab countries were promising to do (in daily radio broadcasts)to those Jewish settlers.

As far as I know, they are still threatening annihilation.

Now, here in the RSA, I have worked with Muslims, and met many. I judge people individually, not as tribes, and have found most to be hard-working, intelligent, and decent.

Up to a point, when a kind of Jeckyl and Hyde nature takes over. The very person you would like to call a friend, suddenly demonstrates an irrational, dogmatic, and viciously anti-West, anti-Israel, defensive/aggressive stance.

Here's my point : within every collective of people, from Israelis to Americans to Christians,(yes, even to Objectivists), one finds disagreement, openly voiced and argued. e.g. there are minorities in Israel who vehemently oppose their own government's policies on Palestine.

Now, why is it that more Muslims - like yourself - do not stand up publically and denounce the words and actions of their extremist fellows?

Why does Islam deny self-responsibility and individualism?

If these moderate, thinking Muslims do not show themselves, morally and courageously, who can blame the rest of us for lumping all of you together?

Tony

[Xray]

We’re due for some levity on this thread:

LOl - good one.

Question to Adonis: what is awaiting the women in the paradise you believe in? Or don't they get into paradise at all?

[Robert Campbell]

"And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 24:33)

The tafsirs or scholastic interpretations for this verse indicates that this is not just whoredom, but also fornication if the slave girl wishes to remain chaste or who simply just doesn't want to have sex with her master. Some even go to the extent of saying you can't even have sex with your slave unless you marry her. Just a note because I'm sure someone will raise it, the "Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful" part is not applying to the person who forces a slave girl to have sex with them.

Adonis,

Dawood translates the underlined portion of 24:33 as

You may not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you may enrich yourselves, if they wish to preserve their chastity. If anyone compels them, God will be forgiving and merciful to them.

I did understand the reference to God's mercy as applying to the slave-girls who had been forced into prostitution. Could it be that Muhammad anticipated that the girls would be blamed for becoming prostitutes, even though they had been forced to?

Robert Campbell

[Xray]

My first question was about the source (see elaborations at the beginning of my post), and my second may be bit blunt: how do you know that what is in there is the truth? Have you ever questioned the reliability of the source?

If not, WHY precisely do you think your source is reliable, tells you the truth?

Which source specifically? The Qur'an?

Because I believe that there were enough witnesses of sound mind and body during the time of Muhammad, peace be upon him who testified that his character was that of a good man who was not a liar nor incapacitated by illness or mental deficiency and who state clearly that what they saw was true and can corroborate each others story on this. I believe that the book, ie the Qur'an is a book of immense knowledge and logic which I don't believe could have come from any man, especially that of an illiterate man.

But can't a 'good man' also be in error?

My faith in my religion over the last 8 years has only gotten stronger from engaging in discussions with people because for everything that I have seen so far, I can find suitable explanations.

Ho do you know your belief the true religion?

However, when your master is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth it is different to having a human master.

How do you receive 'orders' from your "master"?

I believe also in the following statement by perhaps one of my greatest heroes, Thomas Jefferson:"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

How does this mesh with the unequal treating of men and women in Islam?

Also, Ayn Rands beliefs were her own, she was entitled to believe as she chose without being forced to justify her beliefs just like any other human being.

The issue is not about justifying one's belief, but about justifying the imposition of one's belief upon others. What for example happens to a woman living in a society with islamic moral values, but who wants to have no part of it? Who doesn't care one bit about entering marriage as a virgin, wearing a headscarf, etc.? In short, who says: "I'm entitled to believe as I choose".

I believe that the state should not legislate things that aren't it's business like religion, marriage etc.

Whose 'business' is marriage then in your opinion (aside from the two people directly involved)? Religion's?

Edited January 5, 2010 by Xray

[Libertarian Muslim]

At the moment the name of our pain is radical Islam (it used to be communism). The real enemy is an internal weakness or corruption, but Man is a sinful being and there will always be a moral and intellectual defect to overcome. The real Jihad or Struggle is to overcome our weaknesses and our inclination to do ill to ourselves and others. As it says in Perke Avot -- Who is strong? He who overcomes his inclination.

As to the translation; to put it bluntly, you lie. Islam is Submission to the Will of God, not peace or wholesomeness. You people have never, ever been peaceful. You breathe war along with CO2. The Umah is the latter day version of the Amalekites.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, I agree with you. This is called Jihad Al-Nafs, ie the struggle against ones self or one's desires. This is also known as Jihad al Akbar, the Greater Jihad. The majority of the Muslim world believes that this is far more important than any war. For more info on Jihad al Nafs you can go to: http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=7756

Regarding Salam.. I think that the problem you are having Ba'al is that you're assuming what things mean due to similarity. I thought, being a Jew that you'd realize this isn't a logical thing to do due to the closeness of Hebrew to Arabic

Islam means submission to God

Salaam means peace..

They are similar because they both come from the root "Silm", or the Arabic letters are: Seen-Lam-Meem

Silm, actually means a state of peace, with one's self and with one's surroundings.

The way that we believe is best to attain this state of peace with ourselves and our surroundings, is through submission to the Creator of the Universe by following what He has commanded us to do.

All arabic words are derived from a root word, a word of three letters. This is why some people get confused by meanings and Islam and the Qur'an gets misinterpreted.

Is Hebrew similar to that?

That's right Abdul, blame the Jews. So why is the -Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion- the number one non-Arabic best seller in the Muslim world? Islam is profoundly anti-Jewish and very anti-human. Why is the penalty for abandoning Islam death, oh Servant of God? Do you think people should be put to death for having "wrong thoughts"? Wrong actions are punishable, but if a man is not free to think his thoughts and speak them to those who will listen, just how free is he?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Who was blaming the Jews? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a known forgery.

I don't believe that the penalty for leaving Islam is death, it contradicts the verse that states:

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower." (Qur'an 2:256)

The idea of forcing someone to stay Muslim or any other religion is illogical. You can't force a person to think a certain way or contain something in their heart, if the person doesn't want to be Muslim then let them leave, if you don't you'll only have hypocrisy.

Also, in terms of your other question. You can't control people's thoughts, Islam has never legislated that having other ideas is a punishable offense or a bad thing. Think anything you like, explore and voice your ideas. Islam doesn't infringe on this right.

Adonis, there are several ways the United States can be destroyed, but none involve Islam taking over. Europe has a demographic problem and a weak-kneed intellectual-political elite, so that can happen there.

--Brant

Who said the US would be destroyed? I didn't state that it would be it's demise.